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Pc Up Front !!! - 2/25/2003 2:44:52 PM

Veldor

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I've started a forum site to discuss the PC version of "Up Front" that I've begun work on.

Right now it's being started as an ambitious freeware product with hopes of being picked up and secured the proper rights by a publisher. Who knows maybe even MATRIX will adopt it?

I encourage all Up Front players and those otherwise interested to visit the site and take part in some of the polls and discussions beginning there.

http://pub77.ezboard.com/bpcupfront

Post #: 1

- 2/25/2003 9:12:50 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Just book marked ya dude.

I am very much interested in the project.

Up Front is one of my main loves.

Do you have any knowledge of this site (might be a dumb question, but I am not familoiar with this site yet).

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/upfront/

You might consider checking it out.

The only name I have to throw at you is Bruce Wigdor who clearly has a hand in computerised Up Front already.

I have some of his software downloaded, but I have not gotten a chance to fiddle with it yet.

I am assuming you are fully aware that MMP is the current managers of the real thing. Although I think it is in limbo currently.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/OtherGames/produpfrnt.php

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Post #: 2

- 2/25/2003 10:39:55 PM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Just book marked ya dude.

I am very much interested in the project.

Up Front is one of my main loves.

Do you have any knowledge of this site (might be a dumb question, but I am not familoiar with this site yet).

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/upfront/
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hehe, I am the one who gave you that link in another thread. At the time you said you hadn't heard about it. :)

Frankly, its about 20yrs out of date due to its 100% DOS like interface I feel like I'm playing ZORK. It also doesn't achieve anything else I'm looking to do like a Supurb AI, True Campaign Game play and rosters, Network Play, etc. etc. etc.

[QUOTE][B]I am assuming you are fully aware that MMP is the current managers of the real thing. Although I think it is in limbo currently.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, of course but the MMP guys spend all their time on ASL. I wonder though if the rights extend to all areas. I'm guessing not. For instance I doubt they could put out ASL the movie :) PC Up Front is being made either way, even if it ends up freeware. I believe it will be an even better product if it doesn't.. but you gotta do what you gotta do :)

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- 2/25/2003 10:57:19 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I post to much heheh, had forgotten you sent that link heheh.

20 years down the way eh....

Well suffice it to say dude, if you can make a decent go of it, you have my support.

Might even be willing to pay for a decent program.

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Post #: 4

- 2/25/2003 11:31:38 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Just walked all over your forum dude:)

No don't fret that is not a bad thing, I just put some supportive thoughts in there hehe.

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Post #: 5

- 2/26/2003 7:13:28 AM

Fred98

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When this game was released I saw it on the shelves. I never bought it as I knew I could never find an opponent. So I have never played it.

I read about it in the old General magazine and I had the following impression:

- Its a card based game and there is no map board
- You must use your imagination as stressful situations develop

I reckon both of these are great concepts.

But looking at screen shots of the cards, there is a limited amount of information available to the player.

It seems to me that in a computer version of the game you could increase the number of variables, increase the amount of information available to the player and also improve the way the player receives the information � so the player can absorb all the new information.

I would also add a time limit per turn so that a player can more easily surprise an opponent with a sneaky tactic.

Such a game played on-line against a live opponent has great potential.

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Post #: 6

Something I found! - 2/26/2003 7:54:32 AM

Pawlock

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All this talk has made me mighty curious of this game, so I decided to do a search to try find out more. In doing so I stumbled on what I presume to be a PC version of the game you can play via the internet. I dont think it has an AI, but that is only from a quick glance.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/upfront/

Though it may be something you needed to be aware of, in case you went to a lot of work and trouble for nothing.

Maybe worth you investigating?

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Post #: 7

- 2/26/2003 9:49:03 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Pawlock you must have missed Veldor's link too heheh. Your link was the same one basically hehe.

Veldor mentioned that software might be a bit long in the tooth and terribly DOS limited.

Joe don't you go trying to make this effort more than it needs to be hehe

Up Front was perfect when it was first made. Then they released a new edition that did away with the need for counters going the route of entirely all cards. Perfection made even more perfect.

I don't want anything more than actual Up Front on the computer.

Take a look here.

http://www.columbiagames.com/Products/Wargames/index.html

Columbia Games has taken a great game using blocks, and made a computer version of it. I am referring to their East front game done as cmputer East Front (no I do NOT mean East Front by Talonsoft). There is a link to a demo you can check out as well.

No wierd bells no wierd whistles nope even a basic set of graphics. And you know, I think they did a nice job.
When I can figure out how to purchase the game, I might call it my birthday gift #1 draft pick (because Combat Leader probably will not show up till next christmas).

They didn't add anything to the game that wasn't required. And as a result, I think they made the right choice.
Of course the attention deficit gamer will likely not like it, so what.

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oops!! - 2/26/2003 11:07:39 AM

Pawlock

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Guess Im blind as well as old now then :-)

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Re: Something I found! - 2/26/2003 12:56:05 PM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pawlock
[B]All this talk has made me mighty curious of this game, so I decided to do a search to try find out more. In doing so I stumbled on what I presume to be a PC version of the game you can play via the internet. I dont think it has an AI, but that is only from a quick glance.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/upfront/

Though it may be something you needed to be aware of, in case you went to a lot of work and trouble for nothing.

Maybe worth you investigating? [/B][/QUOTE]

Already addressed but basically to me that version is like Pacific War compared to Uncommon Valor. Actually its even worse as at least Pacific War had SOME graphics.

Also there will be a supurb AI (One of the reasons for doing the game is to model an advanced AI), Network Play, True Campaign game rosters and full DYO Scenarios etc etc.

Up Front is one of the most innovative games ever made in my opinion. It may look a bit overly simplified by a quick look at the components, but its really a rather complex game. At least from a logic standpoint. AH gave the original a 4 out of 10, though they tended to guage that just on rulebook length alone. It is no ASL in that regard.

I always liked calling it "Man to Man combat"... Its a more personalized level than "Squad level" as you are really controlling things at an individual soldiers level. This is where the power of the pc can really add to the depth of play with tracking an individual soldiers development scen to scen..

Flexible DYO system and Editors will allow for possible preWWII or modern additions, terrain additions, really limitless possibilities...

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- 2/26/2003 10:08:51 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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To me Up Front was the last time I experienced "programmed instruction method". To those not familiar, the game teaches you some rules gives you a scenario to play to master them. Next scenario is a few more rules.

Play all the scenarios and you have mastered the game. The first version that being Squad leader used this. Pity no one has ever done this before. Not sure if it is possible though.

Then there is the fog of war aspect of Up Front. Not only do you not have god like knowledge of your opponent, you are not even sure if your men will attack or freeze up. Will they move when needed or fire when needed.

The game is a poker players dream game. You can only have X cards in your hand. If you need a movement card, what do you discard to try and get one. The best game for Fog of War including computers is hands down Up Front.

You can take hiding the map and shove it, the Up Front card game is king of Fog of War in wargaming.

I am hoping the AI will be easy. It merely needs to be a card counting SOB really.
"I know that this that and the other card have already been played, and there is only a X % chance of this that and the other card appearing this draw, should I play this or that card?".

The graphics should be the least trouble in todays world. All I want is directly copied images of the real thing. or close to direct copies. I do NOT want inclusion to the game anything that was not part of the interplay of the real thing.
Fancy animations that are only designed to sucker in non wargamers will just irritate me. Call me an elitist if it must be done, I don't feel like one. But I don't want to see my old favourite game raped for the sake of a gamer that isn't really into wargames.

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Post #: 11

- 2/27/2003 5:02:33 AM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]To me Up Front was the last time I experienced "programmed instruction method". To those not familiar, the game teaches you some rules gives you a scenario to play to master them. Next scenario is a few more rules.[/B][/QUOTE]

According to MMP programmed instructions is a dated concept and the 3rd Edition of Up Front due to be released sometime before 2020 will not use them. Poorly organized or not I see no other way to get around not having to read the whole rulebook the first time through and PI for board games is a bit like a tutorial for a computer game. If anything both formats could be included.. One well organized for veteran players, one programmed for first time or occasional players. Of course for the 3rd Edition they are probably assuming everyone buying it already has played (and still remembers the rules for) the second edition. Bad thinking in my opinion, or at least narrows the potential audience.

[QUOTE][B]The best game for Fog of War including computers is hands down Up Front.[/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed, and proof that there is more than one way to "model" such things.

[QUOTE][B]I am hoping the AI will be easy. It merely needs to be a card counting SOB really.
"I know that this that and the other card have already been played, and there is only a X % chance of this that and the other card appearing this draw, should I play this or that card?".
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, I wish it were that easy to make an AI. No for various reasons I don't wish to elaborate on here I think the AI is going to be quite difficult to develop (besides there is a lot more to UF than just what cards you have... How bout selecting the proper Relative Range, Group Composition, When/Where to infiltrate, etc.)
And I do wonder how many so-called "AI's" achieve their intelligence merely by "cheating".. Fog of war should apply to the AI as well correct? In Uncommon Valor I certainly hope the AI doesnt know the location and exact strength of everything the opponent has. Possibly could.. Throw in a small fudge factor and the feel might be one of AI... But I think a true AI model follows similar logic and in a similar way to that of an expert player.. and while some card counting might be possible.. An exact knowledge of whats been played and whats left its not possible to do with 162 cards in the deck of varying types. Think of it this way, if the AI knew all the next cards in order it would be a whole lot smarter right? Thats just not AI to me though, its cheating whether done by a computer or not..

[QUOTE][B]The graphics should be the least trouble in todays world. All I want is directly copied images of the real thing. or close to direct copies. I do NOT want inclusion to the game anything that was not part of the interplay of the real thing.
Fancy animations that are only designed to sucker in non wargamers will just irritate me. Call me an elitist if it must be done, I don't feel like one. But I don't want to see my old favourite game raped for the sake of a gamer that isn't really into wargames. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well we'll see. But don't worry even if there is another mode, the "2D standard card mode" will always be an option. For a comparison think of Chessmaster.. where you can toggle between a 3D environment and a much more generic 2D one. For now the plan is to stick to 2D and predominately the same graphics while providing some visualization, Relative Range charts, Further card detail, and so on in various other windows...

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Post #: 12

- 2/27/2003 5:35:00 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmm dumping PI is dumb, completely dumb, nothing else but dumb.

Hmm did I mention it was dumb.

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Post #: 13

- 3/2/2003 11:32:55 AM

victor semensi

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I found this site when I was searching for computer based card games, it's sort of an 'Up Front' for ancient Rome: [URL=http://digilander.iol.it/zak965/hoplites.htm]Hoplites[/URL]

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Post #: 14

- 3/4/2003 10:19:55 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Latest thing to look into Veldor.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=238

Attention to post commenting on news of a game called Company Commander : Normandy.

A stand alone card using Up Front looking game I just heard about. I have no other details at the moment.

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Post #: 15

- 3/4/2003 11:40:48 PM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Latest thing to look into Veldor.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=238

Attention to post commenting on news of a game called Company Commander : Normandy.

A stand alone card using Up Front looking game I just heard about. I have no other details at the moment. [/B][/QUOTE]

MMP gives out info on their upcoming games with about the same forthcoming attitude that Iraq uses when giving out the locations of WMD.

So the last that I heard of this game was that it was a cheezed-downed "beer-n-pretzel" game meant to hit to shelves of the like of "wizards of the coast" type stores and about as similiar to Up Front as any game with cards would be. Meaning, of course, that its not at all like Up Front. If anything its more like Naval War with Soldiers..

Besides why would they make it like Up Front when they are currently working on and at least publicly acknowledging the existance of that work... an Up Front Third Edition?

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- 3/5/2003 1:54:46 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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At this time, I am unsure if MMP has anything at all to do with this Company Commander : Normandy game actually.

It may well be someone else's game notion entirely actually.

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Post #: 17

- 3/5/2003 2:14:05 AM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]At this time, I am unsure if MMP has anything at all to do with this Company Commander : Normandy game actually.

It may well be someone else's game notion entirely actually. [/B][/QUOTE]

My source was a playtester of the game that posted as to such somewhere.

But I guess you can't believe everything you read on the Internet so its possible he was full of $%#^!.

For that matter who is to say the whole idea didn't stem from an erronous post and that all we are doing is propagating pure gossip and rumors..

I did a search on some of the boards for more info, I didn't really find anything but did find this one post at grognard.com

http://grognard.com/info1/wbc02.txt

This may be the same playtester Ive seen post elsewhere, I don't remember. But it is certainly implied if not also stated here that MMP is the publisher.

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Post #: 18

- 3/5/2003 2:42:52 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Good god man you might have warned me it was at the bottom of that mess hehe.

But it does appear there is a MMp connection. It might just be a minor effort currently.

Then again, I am awaiting the revision known as Panzerblitz 2 as well. It might be out soon, or it might be like Combat Leader "in progress" heheh.

I will agree, MMP is easy to reach, but their web site is just a store front (and we have all seen bad store fronts before).

I once asked them if they had ever considered a forum. The response was to direct me to an inefficient location where news was anything but of any timely use. Messages were old and stale or just to hard to locate.

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Post #: 19

MMP Info - 3/9/2003 12:29:02 AM

Challerain

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The best place to get info on MMP and their games is Consimworld.

http://www.consimworld.com/

Select discussions on the left panel, log in, select game company, and MMP. Lots of good info on MMP with frequent contributions from MMP owners/employees.

That site also has good info on individual games as well.

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Post #: 20

- 3/9/2003 1:13:02 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Been there actually, but this says it all for Consimworld.

"Updated 16 April 02"

Last time their news saw any attention was a year ago.

Sorry, but I have no use for any site that has that little regular interest.

They were where the actual people at MMP directed me too.

But I had signed up at that time, and found the site was A not easy to navigate, and B saturated in stale posts the like of which place Consimworld at the bottom of the heap for usefulness (to me at least).

They are possibly useful to mainstream gaming (I stress possibly, with reservations).

Clearly, if a person likes ASL and actually wants to buy ASL then of course the official MMP site is all you need.

If you want to discuss ASL though, you will score more useful comments on a forum that actually has fans that are actually posting in the here and now.

I have found ASLers at Matrix, Wargamer, Battlefront, and a few other locations.

Being directed to Consimeworld though (for ASL) is the same as being told "you're on your own mate".

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Hmmm - 3/9/2003 1:23:07 AM

Challerain

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Les, I'm not sure what site you are looking at, but I just checked the link I posted and there are news updates from yessterday (maybe when you access the site you are using an old cached copy of the page, try hitting reload). Anyway, there are lots of recent posts in the ASL folder as well as the MMP folder.

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Post #: 22

- 3/9/2003 1:56:39 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Just got my new account verified, I will spend some time geting a fresh look.

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Post #: 23

- 3/9/2003 2:08:28 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmm maybe I am going to have to ask you to post a specific link to something actually current then.

I went there looked up company, and got a message dated 1999.

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

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- 3/9/2003 4:24:46 AM

Challerain

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If I remember correctly, the first time you enter a forum in puts you at the oldest messages. Towards the bottom there are a few buttons (more, recent, all). Click on recent to get the latest or more to scroll forward.

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Post #: 25

- 3/9/2003 7:40:58 AM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Hmm maybe I am going to have to ask you to post a specific link to something actually current then.

I went there looked up company, and got a message dated 1999.

Maybe I am doing something wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]

There are more recent posts, just that the site uses the worst forum software in history and many posts read more like a chat script than any sort of thoughtful statements...

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Post #: 26

- 3/9/2003 8:06:45 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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That is it basically, worst message experience I have encountered.

I suppose I am spoiled. Been to long here at Matrix. To used to a forum experience that is done right.

Consimworld is a source for a lot of things, but easy to access easy to use information, no I don't think so.
Even my local newspaper dispenses news better.

If MMP finds consimworld acceptable, then MMP is just not interested in a dynamic forum experience.

Hey just because they have one of the best wargames of my entire wargaming life, doesn't mean they have a clue how to handle making their wargame a household name.

MMP could with a snap of their fingers be running a site like Matrix. But the owners have to want it that way.

If Matrix continues to chart the course they are charting, I see Matrix being a dominant name in wargaming in a few years.
It's hard work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Post #: 27

- 3/9/2003 9:24:14 AM

Challerain

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I said the info was there, not that it was easy to get :)

I happen to agree with you on the message format; it is very hard to follow.

I'll have to ask them why they don't have their own forum.

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Post #: 28

- 3/9/2003 9:46:10 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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If you are meaning to ask MMP why they do not have a "forum" of their own, already done that.
MMP seems to think that Consimworld's option is adequate.

Always boggles me how some people think.

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Post #: 29

- 3/9/2003 9:50:28 AM

Veldor

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]If you are meaning to ask MMP why they do not have a "forum" of their own, already done that.
MMP seems to think that Consimworld's option is adequate.

Always boggles me how some people think. [/B][/QUOTE]

My money goes to someone at MMP being good friends with someone at Consimworld..

It's quite fitting though.. People living in the 80's using technology that looks like its from the 80's :)

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Post #: 30