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Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 2:42:21 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Im concerned, irritated and bemused by the ability of the Axis to evac from a pocket I created.

I flanked the finally mountain range in italy from both sides and created a one hex wide gap by Mantova. There was a huge pocket from Genoa to Ravenna with over 20 visible divisions inside at the end of my turn. They were all mostly in mountain hexes and rough and it was raining.

Start of my next turn there are three divisions in the pocket and now there is a fully formed line of axis divisions from venice to verona north of this pocket.

My concern is there was no rail line connecting...and no possible way they could have used MPs alone to get out. simply moving through the ZOC would have used up most of their move pts let along moving out of the mountains and 15 hexes north....

It is VERY frustrating. I had 200k men trapped...now they have a new defense line....

Whats the deal here?

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"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."
Post #: 1
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:00:59 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		WITE/WITW rules say that any supply connection at all (even port only) means units can rout out of a notional pocket.

One way of looking at it is that a turn covers a week, and non phasing units are not actually just sitting still. Arguably it works fairly well for the Russian steps, but I agree it starts to break down in the West especially when routing out of islands.

As the naval aspect becomes more important a revision of this mechanic will become unavoidable.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 12/17/2014 4:02:43 PM >

(in reply to ratprince)
Post #: 2
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:04:15 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		No..no...

No routing.

My turn. Pocket created with 20 Axis divisions with only a ten mile corridor to escape and likely 60 or so move points to be able to get out.

Axis turn. All but a couple units made it out of the pocket and formed a line 80 miles north of the pocket.

Impossible to do.

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 3
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:15:59 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		Mike, are you playing against the AI? Cuz the AI CHEATS! If you are playing against a human then it is a bug. The AI gets to cheat in order to be better against us humans.

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Post #: 4
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:33:10 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
Movement speed especially AI movement speed under pressure is bewildering. WiTE was generally nonsensical with regards movement I was hoping for a vast improvement.

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Post #: 5
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:43:14 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

No..no...

No routing.

My turn. Pocket created with 20 Axis divisions with only a ten mile corridor to escape and likely 60 or so move points to be able to get out.

Axis turn. All but a couple units made it out of the pocket and formed a line 80 miles north of the pocket.

Impossible to do.


Ah, the teleporting AI, that sounds like a bug that was in WITE until it was fixed 2? years ago.

(in reply to ratprince)
Post #: 6
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 3:50:38 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		It is one of two things.

Intentional cheating to save the AI from big mistakes

-or-

A bug.

Playing against the AI. It was doing fine. I just made two big thrusts at once from both coasts with some heavy para drops and busted an encirclement. Then, 20 divisions leave the pocket and reform in level 2 and 3 forts somehow in another line 80 miles away.

I mean, I get that the AI is mentally challenged. But, it makes the game unplayable and un-fun versus the AI when it does things like that. it was doing well..holding a line, making some counter attacks at penetrations...then...magic retreat...

Annoying.

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 7
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 4:18:11 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		AI did the same thing in WitE. If you don't have a pocket sealed, what is inside is getting away, no matter how many movement points it takes.

Just have to plan accordingly when making pockets vs the AI.

(in reply to ratprince)
Post #: 8
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 4:24:36 PM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline
quote:

Im concerned, irritated and bemused by the ability of the Axis to evac from a pocket I (probably erroneously) believe I created.


See? Fixed for you. Magic AI.

< Message edited by jazman -- 12/17/2014 5:32:17 PM >

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BS, MS, PhD, WitP:AE, WitE, WitW

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Post #: 9
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 4:26:32 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		heheh....

So what is the pocket escape threshhold? When does the AI "think" it needs to escape??? How does one know when you are too close to causing them to teleport?

Fun sci fi game...yay

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

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Post #: 10
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 5:03:57 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		We constantly struggle to balance the needs to have generic routines that allow the AI to move units around without calculating every cost in every instance versus the desire not to have the AI obviously cheat. Without these shortcuts the AI would not be able to overcome its stupidity and/or the game would grind on for so long that players would be very unhappy. Gary has actually worked hard at this, but with every change in the AI code, there is a chance that something gets out of whack. It is not supposed to be able to get out of pockets like the one you describe, and we had many instances in testing where they didn't (and others where they did at times that we tried to work on). What we need is a save at the start of the AI turn where the AI does something it clearly shouldn't. If you can attach it here or email it to 2by3@2by3games.com then Gary will work with it and try to improve it.

BTW, the AI is so complex that it often has a mind of its own. Gary will make a change in the code only to find that some other routine buried in the AI is ignoring the change and it still makes a bad move (either cheating or making a stupid move). Only with saves can he determine how the AI is making the illegal move and try to fix it. We appreciate your help in trying to improve the AI.

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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Post #: 11
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 5:45:25 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Dont get me wrong, I love the game and have been playing non stop since release and played all the other GG games forever. It is just a bit frustrating when you work for 20 turns {50 man hours} to orchestrate something and then POOF...magic.. hehe...

Ill send the save before and after the "escape from Italy"...hhhehe...

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 12
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 6:19:11 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

WITE/WITW rules say that any supply connection at all (even port only) means units can rout out of a notional pocket.


The way to stop units in this situation is to make sure you destroy all the ports available to them. If the port is destroyed, they can't rout out that way.

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 13
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 7:00:29 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		This is not a routing teleport issue. This is a "no possible way they moved that far in their move phase" issue...

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 14
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 7:01:58 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		I was replying to MechFO's comment.

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Post #: 15
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 7:06:10 PM   
ratprince


Posts: 326
Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		ahh...gotcha. sorry

_____________________________

"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 16
RE: Magically evac from pocket? - 12/17/2014 7:15:41 PM   
Gorforlin

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/22/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

It is one of two things.

Intentional cheating to save the AI from big mistakes

-or-

A bug.

Playing against the AI. It was doing fine. I just made two big thrusts at once from both coasts with some heavy para drops and busted an encirclement. Then, 20 divisions leave the pocket and reform in level 2 and 3 forts somehow in another line 80 miles away.

I mean, I get that the AI is mentally challenged. But, it makes the game unplayable and un-fun versus the AI when it does things like that. it was doing well..holding a line, making some counter attacks at penetrations...then...magic retreat...

Annoying.


WitE AI was kinda ok at release and has gotten allot better, I am sure WitW AI will do the same.


(in reply to ratprince)
Post #: 17
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