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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release)

 
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/7/2014 8:50:47 AM   
Yank31

 

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It does.

Maybe you should specify, somewhere in the OP, that the "Extended 1.03 version" is a standalone, which does indeed already include the original Extended mod.

Also, I was quite shocked to discover that the tech tree had been changed (most notably colonization) but also the tech themselves (hyperdrives) !! I did not expect that, at all. Yes, I didn't read everything in the OP, but to be frank, it's a bit overwhelming and I figured I wouldn't miss any crucial info after the dev wish-list.

These changes don't seem bad, and they play well, but I really wish they would appear somewhere in a visible spot. Especially because they are not expected in an AI mod. You know, it's like modding Skyrim and this dude did a wonderful thing with pouches, and made a whole solid and appealing mod about them, but forgets to mention that he also changed some stuff about forge and crafting, and hunger, and suddenly your whole mod installation falls appart and... yeah.

This is a very excessive example, I did not encounter any conflict with your mod (I only run 3). But... just saying, a little bit of info is always welcomed. Maybe I missed it.

At any rates, just some quick and dirty feedback, thank you very much for your answer, and thank you even more for the whole thing.

< Message edited by Yank31 -- 12/7/2014 9:56:19 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/7/2014 2:49:09 PM   
Icemania


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I would recommend reading the OP more thoroughly.

With respect to how to how to install the Mod, near the very top of the OP the following is stated:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Both downloads are structured as a new Theme and will need to be placed in the "Customization" folder.

Anybody who has seen Das's "how to mod" video that is stickied to the top of the forum will understand that statement. If you want to mix it up and ignore that advice, you have that choice but any problems due to conflicts are at your own peril.

With respect to colonisation, in the OP the following is stated:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Integrated Francoy's Colonisation Rebalanced Mod including changes to Research Orders, Race Files, Research Costs and Policy Files.

Francoy's Colonisation Mod is also specifically credited in the about text for the Mod i.e. where you switch to it as a theme in game.

With respect to hyperdrives, in the OP the following is stated:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
3. Reduced Gerax hyperdrive speeds and increased late-game hyperdrive speeds. This helps prevent the AI from sending ships and fleets unreasonable distances before they are ready to do so. Pirates will be a little less effective which helps the AI Empires. Late game mop-up operations can be done more quickly. It should also help the Shakturi if the human player has not given hyperdrive research sufficient focus.

I know it's a long list but there are a lot of changes in this Mod and from the start I wanted to be as transparent as I could. There are a number of other changes that may not be obvious unless you read the OP but they are all in the mod for a reason.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/7/2014 3:49:41 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/8/2014 10:31:13 AM   
Yank31

 

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It could sound like I'm arguing, but not being a native user of this language, I'll just say : I'm not arguing, at all.

After reading your contributions on this forum, I would not even imagine accusing you of not being transparent. I probably phrased my thought poorly. What I was trying to say is that the content of your mod does not appear easily, to the newcomer. It feels a bit scattered, all over the OP. I just skimmed, again, the OP, and did not find the reference you just mentionned. I'm probably not the best reader there is, but I did install quite a bit of mods in quite a bit of games in the past decades. To sum it up and put it a bit bluntly perhaps (please do not take offence) : your OP is not very easy to decypher, crucial infos about the mod content does not catch the eye very well. The OP could use a bit of polish, with maybe clearer sections (ie installation / content / changelogs / dev wish list / etc).
I feel that those 2 pieces of information should receive a special treatement, regarding their presentation, because they do feel out of place in an AI modification. Again, they are probably great and the point I was trying to make is that one should immediately know "Oh yes, it will also change the research cost and tweak some techs, which in the end should further help the AI performing better. Ok, great, great."
This is what I was trying to say on that matter.

Regarding your installation instruction, I did catch them the first time (fortunately for me, that's like the first sentence...). I still find them lacking because I did not know if the file I would download was a stand-alone (which would include the original Extended mod), or only your mod, adapted for Extended. Hence why I suggested to specify that it is, indeed, a stand-alone and that, therefore, one does not need to also download the original Extended mod and install it prior, or after, or whatever.

Sorry this is getting a bit too long, just wanted to clarify, not to blotter your thread with nitpicking (which I fear I still ended up doing - for the better, I hope).


< Message edited by Yank31 -- 12/8/2014 11:39:09 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/8/2014 2:06:24 PM   
Icemania


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Yes okay, I agree it is time to restructure the OP. It was intended to focus on developer support issues which is why that was at the top. I had also received requests to make the changelogs more visible. However, those horses have bolted, and I can see you can have to read quite a way down if you are new to the mod before getting to anything interesting.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/8/2014 2:53:15 PM   
Icemania


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Okay OP updated, let me know if you find that easier to read.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/8/2014 3:59:11 PM   
Yank31

 

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I think this is great, much clearer.

It did give me the incentive to actually read more about the content and finally, and rapidly, find about colonization and hyperspeed :)
Installation :
Both downloads are structured as a new Theme.
Extract as a new folder in the "Customization" folder, then run the game and switch to the AI Improvement Mod theme.

- The "Vanilla 1.03 Release" file contains the AI Improvement Mod for vanilla.
- The "Extended 1.03 Release" file is an "all-in-one" package, including both the AI Improvement Mod for Extended, and Haree78's sensational Extended Universe Mod 1.03

Refer to Das's How to Install Mods Video if required. 


Or something along those lines, I admit this is not as easy as I wished it was, to remain both short and explicit.

In any cases, cheers


Edit : hahaha, gotta love how using the "code" "/code" to make things clean, actually turned this post into a visual mess. The irony...

< Message edited by Yank31 -- 12/8/2014 5:02:55 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/9/2014 1:08:39 AM   
Icemania


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Updated, cheers.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/11/2014 11:56:34 AM   
Icemania


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Hey All:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
This new update, 1.9.5.10 ...

BUG FIXES
- ensure Shakturi always properly use custom design templates when available


Good news! As of patch 1.9.5.10 the Shakturi now use the custom design templates that are in the AI Improvement Mod rather than Vanilla. Be afraid! Thanks Erik and Elliot. Refer below for a screenshot from a test game and notice the size of the ships ...



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/11/2014 12:58:33 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/11/2014 1:01:18 PM   
Yank31

 

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No...


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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/11/2014 1:05:19 PM   
Icemania


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The Shakturi needed an upgrade, they can be beaten without loosing a single ship on Extreme difficulty. Not any more!

Keep an eye on those Cruisers ... HINT:

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/11/2014 2:06:08 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/18/2014 11:11:33 AM   
Icemania


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Added the following to the Developer Support Wishlist in the OP thanks to comments from EnDSchultz in the Beyond Mod thread.

• Ships using Gravity/Area weapons should be able to avoid their own gravity wells, at the moment they often do as much manage to themselves as they do to others.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/20/2014 9:31:14 PM   
Premislaus

 

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Very good mod! But I thnik battleships (capital, cruisers) should be minority of the fleet.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/21/2014 1:17:59 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Premislaus
Very good mod! But I thnik battleships (capital, cruisers) should be minority of the fleet.

Cheers Premislaus.

With respect to battleships, the mod is not intended to replicate the traditional fleet split, it's intended to do everything possible to optimise the AI, with the mechanics of the game as they are.

What you've described is basically the Vanilla AI, it builds a lot of smaller ships. The reality is that the game does not give those smaller ships bonuses so when battling against fleets of large ships, the large ships have the advantage.

Another factor is that the design templates in the game use a fixed number of components. If you build an Escort at the start of the game with 2 shields, it will have 2 shields late game as well ... I can't change this depending on the stage of the game for the AI. However, for Capital Ships and Carriers ONLY, once you have much larger construction sizes, the game is coded to increase the number of components to expand to fit the available size. So by using these designs more, the AI is much more of a threat late game.

For some broader discussion, refer here for ship designs in the AI Improvement Mod more generally.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/21/2014 2:19:17 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/22/2014 3:51:21 PM   
solops

 

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I tried this mod for about three months but I have gone back to stock. I have found that AI Imp Mod 1.3 is easier to beat than the stock 1.9.5.9 or 1.9.5.10 in all of the different game set-ups I tried. It is simply too passive. It may build better ships or do better R&D or a host of other things, I do not know. I do know that it simply will not fight as well or as often, even though I always play with high aggression settings against a collection of opponents consisting of mostly hostile bug races. I won two games on hard against aggressive bugs without ever having anyone declare war on me. That NEVER happens in stock DWU.

< Message edited by solops -- 12/22/2014 5:03:23 PM >


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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/22/2014 11:05:10 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: solops
I tried this mod for about three months but I have gone back to stock. I have found that AI Imp Mod 1.3 is easier to beat than the stock 1.9.5.9 or 1.9.5.10 in all of the different game set-ups I tried. It is simply too passive. It may build better ships or do better R&D or a host of other things, I do not know. I do know that it simply will not fight as well or as often, even though I always play with high aggression settings against a collection of opponents consisting of mostly hostile bug races. I won two games on hard against aggressive bugs without ever having anyone declare war on me. That NEVER happens in stock DWU.

I have no doubt you’ve had two passive games. There are some options to explore which we’ll get to but to start with I need to respond to some of your comments.

Firstly I’ve had many passive games against Vanilla on Chaos Aggression, which I’ve posted about going all the way back to Shadows with my very first few posts on this forum. To suggest you always get war declared on you in Vanilla is simply wrong.

Secondly the vast majority of my testing was done with half of the races improved and half of the races Vanilla. I played a couple of dozen test games with this split and every single time an improved race won. Every time. Improved or not, some of the AI’s will find ways to gimp themselves, most commonly due to resources e.g. the AI still builds too few construction ships early game, something I can’t change, but is on my wishlist for the developer. On playing the mod myself, it’s clearly more difficult, and I’ve had many comments supporting the mod being more difficult from others. In short, stating this is easier than Vanilla is ridiculous.

Now with that said let’s focus on what was changed in the Mod and what we can do about peaceful games.

“All Insect races were changed to be more willing to go to War

Racial Biases
Increased positive and negative biases (without going overboard) with the races split into 4 groups (ensuring each group uses a variety of weapons).

By increasing the positive biases for races within a group they are more likely to form Mutual Defence Pacts. With the changes to fleet coordination in Universe this should mean more mega fleet battles.

Each group has negative biases set against another group, so they are more likely to go to war i.e. Group 1 v Group 2, Group 3 v Group 4. I've had too many games in the past where nobody declared war even on Chaos throughout the entire game. So now, if you decide to take a back seat and your partners go down, you could then be facing a strong alliance of opponents, without as much support ...”


With the Racial Biases changes you will find about 1/3rd of the races in the galaxy naturally dislike you, about a 1/3rd are neutral, and about a 1/3rd really like you. The intensity of the dislike and like is higher than Vanilla and is at the limit of what can done in the biases file.

The impact is that if you declare war, as other races are much more likely to be in a Mutual Defence Pact, you’ll find yourself in war against a bunch of other races as well, making it more problematic to go on the offensive. That said, you can still play in a silo like Vanilla and turn down any Mutual Defence Pacts that are offered to you, so you are not obligated to go to war. If the races nearby are friendly or neutral, absolutely you can have peaceful games. If the races nearby are part of the alliance that naturally dislike you, it can get rough, as all of them may gang up on you … but there are various way to avoid war being declared on you even then.

Initially during testing I had more of the races disliking other races i.e. the races in Group 1 all like each other, but they hate everyone in Group 2, 3 and 4. It’s far more likely you’ll be declared war against. It’s still possible to have a peaceful game but if you play on high aggression most games end up being like World War 2. Personally I like that; however, I was mindful that not everyone likes to play games where an all-in style Galactic War is almost inevitable.

Either way you can still sit in that silo, let others slug it out, let your friends fight without lifting a finger to help them and win.

So …

The other parameter I tested was War Willingness. I played a few test games where that was increased for every race not just the Insects and there is absolutely no doubt they declared war more often.

Now if you want to play with this arrangement, these changes are easily made, and I can upload a new version to test, but consider it a BETA.

I also see you are playing on Hard. Hard is the minimum for this Mod and I’ve been in two minds for a while about making the minimum Very Hard. While there are changes that help the AI economy (such as extra mining engines, faster freighters and so on) there are also changes that cost more (such as more exploration ships, tax at 0% for longer). Either way, you’ll notice the difference the most on Extreme difficulty, and more of a difference on Very Hard. Hard really is pathetically easy for an experienced player, keep in mind how complex this game is compared to many other 4X games (which makes it even harder for an AI to compete).


< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/23/2014 11:05:38 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/23/2014 10:04:49 AM   
Icemania


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I had a closer look at War Willingness. The modding range is 0.5 (low tendency to go to War) to 4 (high tendency to go to War) but the majority are at the low end in Vanilla. Indeed the highest is 2 and even some extremely aggressive races are set at only 1. So not only can I increase the probability of going to war but improve alignment with racial characteristics i.e. I'll keep passive races at the low end but lots of room to move for more aggressive races.

Running a test game now with those changes.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/23/2014 11:10:14 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.03 Release) - 12/23/2014 1:25:44 PM   
Icemania


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Okay here are the changes I'm testing at the moment. If anybody wants to give it a try, let me know, and I'll upload it to Dropbox.

1. Spaceports now use the Evade Stance (except for races that require Point Blank for their chosen weapon type). This effects Tractor Beams, pushing away ships, hence making it more difficult for Pirates to land raiders.

2. War Willingness generally increased and better aligned with racial characteristics i.e. so passive races still have a low War Willingness, but aggressive races have increased War Willingness.

3. Racial biases are much more often negative for races in other alliance / racial groups.

4. Positive racial biases are now more strongly aligned with racial groups.

5. Racial biases now include a modifier for friendliness of the race to better align with their racial characteristics.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/23/2014 3:45:31 PM >

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AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/23/2014 2:56:28 PM   
Icemania


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[EDIT: 1.04 now released]

Comments welcome.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/30/2014 9:44:49 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/24/2014 3:54:47 PM   
Fishers of Men


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Good job, Icemania! Listening to the folks.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/25/2014 12:16:29 AM   
Icemania


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Thanks Fishers of Men.

In test games so far, there is no doubt the AI declares war more often. Chaos was ... Chaos. You shouldn't find passive races declaring war unless you've earned it, and aggressive & unfriendly races declared war plenty, so seems well aligned from that perspective.

Many of us up the aggression well above Normal, I expect some people will now want to dial it back i.e. arguably more towards what you expect from the aggression settings when you first started playing.

There is still room to tune in either direction so feedback is welcome. I don't plan to formalise this as a 1.04 release without more testing and feedback. But it's nice to make changes that seem to work in an area that has annoyed me since I started playing Distant Worlds.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/25/2014 1:18:41 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/25/2014 9:31:43 PM   
Kizucha

 

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Coming by to say thank you icemania. ^.^ I only hope that you stay with us, i dont want a third modder, who changed something in the research in the way i can have more fun with the game, to leave the game.I hope lurchi come's back but from week to week, my hope slowly fades away.

Downloading now the new update and maybe tomorrow i play a bit with it. :3 Again, thank you.

< Message edited by Kizucha -- 12/25/2014 10:40:38 PM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/26/2014 10:37:05 AM   
Icemania


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Holy crap, lost my homeworld spaceport 3 times now on an Extreme difficulty game, with Maximum Empires and Restless Aggression ... having fun!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/26/2014 3:19:50 PM   
Kizucha

 

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Now i have time to play yay. ^.^ But i think i'm not good enough to play on extreme. xD But good to see the ai is not to bad at extreme. ^^

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/27/2014 4:14:07 PM   
marlin0

 

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I usually only play on hard difficulty, but even so I'll try out this new beta version of your excellent mod for a few weeks and report back. Thanks for still supporting this great piece of work, and enjoy the holidays!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/28/2014 12:10:51 AM   
Icemania


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So, erm, I hate to admit it, but I lost a game! In the past I've described Extreme difficulty as a cakewalk.

I played with the beta 1.04 version above of the AI Improvement Mod so the AI's are far more aggressive, Max Empires so a very busy map with very little room to expand and they were quickly annoyed, Extreme difficulty, Restless Aggression and spawned next to some very aggressive and unfriendly races. I played as the Kiadian.

I applied the usual house rules: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3757719

Along the way my homeworld spaceport was destroyed 3 times putting a huge dent in my expansion plans (killed my scientists as well). Eventually I got through it and took over some nearby homeworlds and would have steadily expanded from there. But the Shakturi arrived (remember the AI is far more aggressive with exploring so you don't get to choose when to reveal them) and since they use the new upgraded Shakturi design templates (as of patch 1.9.5.10) they completely wiped the floor with me.

Loving this game again!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/28/2014 7:54:15 AM   
sayke

 

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Icemania - This is so cool! Thank you thank you thank you!!! I think you made it damn near impossible to beat now on a whole range of settings, which is as it should be =D

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/28/2014 2:44:35 PM   
Sithuk

 

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Ice: what is your view on the pros/cons of disabling tech trading?

Do you consider that the AI benefits more than the human player on balance, as the human player can game the system to take advantage of the feature? Or does the AI lose out on balance without tech trading enabled, due to being able to agressively trade the techs it is able to get quicker than the human player on the higher difficulty levels?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/29/2014 3:15:34 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice: what is your view on the pros/cons of disabling tech trading?

Do you consider that the AI benefits more than the human player on balance, as the human player can game the system to take advantage of the feature? Or does the AI lose out on balance without tech trading enabled, due to being able to agressively trade the techs it is able to get quicker than the human player on the higher difficulty levels?

I consider active technology trading a key part of any 4X diplomacy system and so it's important that the AI is good at it. Unfortunately in Distant Worlds I don't think the AI takes advantage of technology trading and as a result any decent human player will outplay the AI. I still wonder sometimes whether the AI does any meaningful technology trading at all. That said, one of the implications of the changes in race biases in the 1.04 Beta is that a lot less technology trading is possible. I'm playing a game with tech trading on at the moment to see if I can still abuse it and looks okay so far ... so long as you avoid technology selling and diplomacy cash farming which remains completely broken of course.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/29/2014 4:17:17 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/29/2014 3:18:09 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice: what is your view on the pros/cons of disabling tech trading?

Do you consider that the AI benefits more than the human player on balance, as the human player can game the system to take advantage of the feature? Or does the AI lose out on balance without tech trading enabled, due to being able to agressively trade the techs it is able to get quicker than the human player on the higher difficulty levels?

Feedback welcome.

For those that want a Peaceful game ... you'll probably have to use the Peaceful Aggression setting!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/29/2014 4:18:22 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/29/2014 12:55:28 PM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice: what is your view on the pros/cons of disabling tech trading?

Do you consider that the AI benefits more than the human player on balance, as the human player can game the system to take advantage of the feature? Or does the AI lose out on balance without tech trading enabled, due to being able to agressively trade the techs it is able to get quicker than the human player on the higher difficulty levels?

I consider active technology trading a key part of any 4X diplomacy system and so it's important that the AI is good at it. Unfortunately in Distant Worlds I don't think the AI takes advantage of technology trading and as a result any decent human player will outplay the AI. I still wonder sometimes whether the AI does any meaningful technology trading at all. That said, one of the implications of the changes in race biases in the 1.04 Beta is that a lot less technology trading is possible. I'm playing a game with tech trading on at the moment to see if I can still abuse it and looks okay so far ... so long as you avoid technology selling and diplomacy cash farming which remains completely broken of course.

The AI does suggest selling tech, though, and I assume they do not only do that to the player, but between AIs as well? And that the AI sometimes accept this deal?

I don't know a way to be sure, though, as if you run AI on suggest and try to track what tech the other empire have, you have to make the trade decision, and if you have it fully automated you will never know the AI did anything at all.

One AI trade that would be possible to see, is the contested base trades, but it would go far beyond normal obsession to track the contested bases of other empires and them changing hands.

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