[FIXED v1.07] Separate crashes

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Tech Support >> [FIXED v1.07] Separate crashes

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[FIXED v1.07] Separate crashes - 1/2/2015 9:44:53 PM

RobotCriminal

Posts: 43
Joined: 1/2/2015
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Just bought this game, would be nice if it didn't crash so damn much though

. As an aside, if you guys could also make a link to this forum (or better yet, an e-mail or something to avoid making an account) in the pop-up that occurs with a crash that would be helpful to new players.

Anyway, enough griping, game is still fun when it runs so here you go (there are actually 4 crash files, but I forgot to snag the autosave with #1):

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 1/6/2015 4:30:36 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/2/2015 9:59:50 PM

RobotCriminal

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Joined: 1/2/2015
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Playing build 624 (latest steam version), with message log in separate window (2nd monitor). Music and Sound are turned on (read this could be a cause of one of the memory errors).

It has crashed a lot more then these 4 times, it just took me a while to get frustrated enough to start logging them. Good luck squashing.

Tried to post my pc stats to help but got this error message after it ate my post: "You are not allowed to post links, emails or phone numbers for 7 days from the date of your tenth post"

< Message edited by RobotCriminal -- 1/2/2015 11:00:50 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/3/2015 2:20:22 AM

Ocel0t

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Joined: 10/13/2014
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Your OP is a neat idea, especially if it could automatically attach your diagnostics, latest autosave, etc all in one package. Per the newbie rules ya... thats a pain over here too lol...

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Post #: 3

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/3/2015 2:27:10 AM

RobotCriminal

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Aaaand 2 more after trying to play tonight. 6 in particular crashes pretty much instantly after trying to click on any plane group.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/3/2015 2:30:19 AM

Ocel0t

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Joined: 10/13/2014
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Have you tried the usual stuff like... a) validating your install, b) disabling sound, c) restarting the machine? Just making sure all the simple bases are covered, I know I always miss one lol...

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Post #: 5

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/3/2015 3:25:56 AM

marcpennington

Posts: 335
Joined: 1/31/2011
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Actually that initial idea of creating a link in the error message to send it to who-ever within the Matrix community is responsible is a really good one--- I've played lots of games from various of the Matrix affiliated publishers (including betas), and when the occasional crash does happen, it's always a seriously pain to figure out which format the screen shot needs to be in, to compress the save file to a zip to get it onto the forums, etc. Half the time I don't bother and just figure someone else will... I'm sure a lot of us would be way more quick to report bugs if something like that was implemented.

< Message edited by map66 -- 1/3/2015 4:28:03 AM >

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Post #: 6

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/3/2015 10:05:02 PM

Ocel0t

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Joined: 10/13/2014
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This is my feeling also. My day job is application development and some IT. When it's game time, I just can't be bothered to fill out more reports. So if it isn't a few clicks and I'm done, I'll leave it for someone else. Sorry.

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Post #: 7

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 12:36:22 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocel0t

This is my feeling also. My day job is application development and some IT. When it's game time, I just can't be bothered to fill out more reports. So if it isn't a few clicks and I'm done, I'll leave it for someone else. Sorry.

God I hope your not interviewing for a big boy IT job anytime soon and pull out that jewel

Although I agree an autologger has some value nothing really replaces having a human being explain what they did or why they did it.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/5/2015 1:40:35 AM >

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 12:47:14 AM

Ocel0t

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Oh you think eh?

I work hard, long hours at my day job; which is also my passion, so I have long but enjoyable personal projects. I have a family. I volunteer in my community. Those are my jewels. My point was that after I've given my all to my work, and family and other priority areas, I don't have much left to volunteer to do other people's jobs, like QA for small game studios. As much as I feel bug reports are a team/community effort (and believe me, I do), I have so much else going on that one more tedious thing is the straw for the camels back. So something that makes taking a break from my off hours to help out easy is a good thing. That's all I meant. Didn't mean to come off however you took that? So unless I'm reading you wrong mike, was that necessary? Really bud?

Edit: I should mention, it's not an auto-logger I was suggesting; more like a form that would attach the diagnostic log, most recent save(s), and have a rich text input for the human element that submits to wherever your heart desires. Not an original idea, but one that one that makes things easier for us mere mortals.

< Message edited by Ocel0t -- 1/5/2015 1:57:32 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 12:58:13 AM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocel0t

Oh you think eh?

I work hard, long hours at my day job; which is also my passion, so I have long but enjoyable personal projects. I have a family. I volunteer in my community. Those are my jewels. My point was that after I've given my all to my work, and family and other priority areas, I don't have much left to volunteer to do other people's jobs, like QA for small game studios. As much as I feel bug reports are a team/community effort (and believe me, I do), I have so much else going on that one more tedious thing is the straw for the camels back. So something that makes taking a break from my off hours to help out easy is a good thing. That's all I meant. Didn't mean to come off however you took that? So unless I'm reading you wrong mike, was that necessary? Really bud?

Nobody is asking to do QA for a small game development studio

What we're asking for is a file and a description occasionally. If you don't do it or value it I don't really care but you're not coming on here and telling others not to do it. If you think that let me know so we can ban you now because thats not being useless (which is fine) but harmful (which is not fine).

Thanks

Mike

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 1:02:27 AM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocel0t

Edit: I should mention, it's not an auto-logger I was suggesting; more like a form that would attach the diagnostic log, most recent save(s), and have a rich text input for the human element that submits to wherever your heart desires. Not an original idea, but one that one that makes things easier for us mere mortals.

See above. I like to know what people do and forms just really suck at communicating that. Might do some autologging etc. though.

Not to come off as snarky but we did win a few game of the year awards so we might be doing it right.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/5/2015 2:03:39 AM >

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 1:04:04 AM

Ocel0t

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woah woah woah, I think we're misunderstanding each other. I totally think that it hurts no one to, to take a couple min to post some helpful data, help you guys out. I would never tell people not to because it doesn't fit my view of things, or whatever impression you have. So, let me please apologize for the wrong impression if that's the case. Like I said in my last post, bug reporting in my view is a team effort. My only feeling is that the process could be streamlined, because people want to use their down time to relax; so I would guess that a lot of folks ignore the current process and just restart the game. However, if things are working for you, then don't fix what ain't broke.

Anyways, like I said, I think there's been an misunderstanding; sorry for the confusion. In future, if you happen to recognize my handle - please note that I my goal is always to be useful to whomever needs/wants my help; advocating a productive atmosphere to worthy projects like this one. I do work for what others would call "big boy" IT; so I can empathize more than you know. Just asking to be some some slack in the future ;).

EDIT: clarity and slack.

< Message edited by Ocel0t -- 1/5/2015 2:08:17 AM >

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 1:19:08 AM

mikmykWS

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and who do you think we are? A bunch of dude's hanging out in my Mom's garage coding war games and building bongs?We all have day jobs at large companies and families too.

This venture has been very successful for us from a financial standpoint as well as intellectual and creative. Its not often you get all three during the day consistently

Thanks

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/5/2015 2:21:28 AM >

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 1:37:29 AM

Ocel0t

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Mike, please understand: I'm not trying to condescend if that's what you think. I'm writing my posts with a view to extending a hand of friendship and attempting to accomplish that by finding some common ground. That's all my motive ever was.

I realize you guys have a big success here. I haven't once had the motive to diminish that, to detract from it, to discourage others from supporting you; or any other negative gesture you might believe. Again, I apologize if you got some other impression.

So let me reiterate, I'm a customer and a fan; and attempting to be a positive contributor. Ok?

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 4:43:17 AM

RobotCriminal

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Wow really didn't mean to start an argument here, sorry about that.

My point was this:

1: If more people submit crash logs/save files then developers have more data to work with and things get fixed faster and more efficiently.
2: Things getting fixed faster and more efficiently equals a better game experience for everyone.
3: Streamlining the process of submitting saves/crash dumps leads to a lot more submissions than just relying on the good will of people to do it. It's hardly uncommon in the game industry to try to make this as easy as possible for people to do, I've seen a number of games go so far as to basically wrap it up and then just ask for end-user permission to fire it off.

#3 is mostly what I was getting at.

Ocelot might have worded it a good bit more strongly then I would have, but he isn't wrong. I understand that no one writes perfect software, and that no matter how hard you QA and beta test things are bound to crop up when you release it to thousands of man hours of end user use on a ton of different hardware configs, and that why I went through the trouble of registering an account and wrapping things up nicely to try to help.

However the bottom line is that I just paid 50 bucks for a piece of software that crashes a whole lot, and frankly a lot of end users are a lot more likely to just smack the close button and go to bed instead of trying to find what forum its supposed to be submitted on. Pointing people in the right direction or implementing some semi-automated version (ie /Crash folder with logs and save files) would probably get a lot more submissions for you guys.

That was my suggestion, and it was from a standpoint of trying to help you out with data collection, not attack you. Sorry if it came across wrong.

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 4:48:14 AM

RobotCriminal

Posts: 43
Joined: 1/2/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocel0t

Edit: I should mention, it's not an auto-logger I was suggesting; more like a form that would attach the diagnostic log, most recent save(s), and have a rich text input for the human element that submits to wherever your heart desires. Not an original idea, but one that one that makes things easier for us mere mortals.

See above. I like to know what people do and forms just really suck at communicating that. Might do some autologging etc. though.

Not to come off as snarky but we did win a few game of the year awards so we might be doing it right.

Mike

On a side note this comes across as really really really snarky however.

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Post #: 16

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 6:32:03 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobotCriminal
Just bought this game, would be nice if it didn't crash so damn much though . As an aside, if you guys could also make a link to this forum (or better yet, an e-mail or something to avoid making an account) in the pop-up that occurs with a crash that would be helpful to new players.

Anyway, enough griping, game is still fun when it runs so here you go (there are actually 4 crash files, but I forgot to snag the autosave with #1):

Hello,

Could you please try turning off sound effects and seeing if it makes a difference. We've had a number of reports that associate usage of sound effects with an increased frequency of crashes in the current version and we are working on a fix for this.

Thanks!

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 6:36:29 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: map66
Actually that initial idea of creating a link in the error message to send it to who-ever within the Matrix community is responsible is a really good one--- I've played lots of games from various of the Matrix affiliated publishers (including betas), and when the occasional crash does happen, it's always a seriously pain to figure out which format the screen shot needs to be in, to compress the save file to a zip to get it onto the forums, etc. Half the time I don't bother and just figure someone else will... I'm sure a lot of us would be way more quick to report bugs if something like that was implemented.

Thanks, we'll take this experience into consideration.

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 7:17:04 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobotCriminal

Wow really didn't mean to start an argument here, sorry about that.

My point was this:

1: If more people submit crash logs/save files then developers have more data to work with and things get fixed faster and more efficiently.
2: Things getting fixed faster and more efficiently equals a better game experience for everyone.
3: Streamlining the process of submitting saves/crash dumps leads to a lot more submissions than just relying on the good will of people to do it. It's hardly uncommon in the game industry to try to make this as easy as possible for people to do, I've seen a number of games go so far as to basically wrap it up and then just ask for end-user permission to fire it off.

#3 is mostly what I was getting at.

Ocelot might have worded it a good bit more strongly then I would have, but he isn't wrong. I understand that no one writes perfect software, and that no matter how hard you QA and beta test things are bound to crop up when you release it to thousands of man hours of end user use on a ton of different hardware configs, and that why I went through the trouble of registering an account and wrapping things up nicely to try to help.

However the bottom line is that I just paid 50 bucks for a piece of software that crashes a whole lot, and frankly a lot of end users are a lot more likely to just smack the close button and go to bed instead of trying to find what forum its supposed to be submitted on. Pointing people in the right direction or implementing some semi-automated version (ie /Crash folder with logs and save files) would probably get a lot more submissions for you guys.

That was my suggestion, and it was from a standpoint of trying to help you out with data collection, not attack you. Sorry if it came across wrong.

We appreciate the concern, but frankly this is the first time someone comes here and tells us "the game crashed and I didn't know which forum to post to". (It's not like we don't provide quite clear tech-support instructions both on this site and on Steam). So you can understand the "WTF" reaction to this.

Most of the issue reports we usually have are what you would call "logic flaws" (ie. why is my aircraft not shooting at this target) and these are really hard to explain simply by a semi-automatic submitted report. This is part of why there has not been a big incentive to automate this process until now.

The crash thing is a recent spike which looks to be tied to specific sound hardware configurations (see here for example: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3775015 ), so a more appropriate description is you paid 50$ for a piece of software that crashes _on your setup_ a lot. We are working on a fix and as a temporary workaround we recommend de-activating sound effects.

We appreciate the fact that after your day job, family obligations, other hobbies etc. you expect a game you bought to be working without hassles (as we all) but please do keep in mind that we too have day jobs (mostly in IT too so we get your thing), families, other obligations and working on a WOTY-grade game is but one of them. We have consciously chosen to be abnormally accessible through these forums and other venues (try talking directly to e.g. the dev team of the COD series on a daily basis, for comparison) in order to support our customer base as much as possible, but this decision is always reversible and hinges on our customers respecting the nature of the game and what we've done (and sacrificed; one day I may write a book...) to make it the success that it is. There is a reason for everything we do (or don't). This is our passion project. If it becomes more like "work" ("I've paid for this! FIX IT!!!"), we may be forced to treat it more as such; something that I'm quite certain the majority of our customers would not prefer. It's up to everyone here to contribute towards this not happening.

Thanks!

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 1/5/2015 1:51:23 PM >

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 11:28:32 AM

Ocel0t

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Thanks for your time guys, I honestly just wanted the existing bug reporting system built into the game to make it a bit faster. I definitely am not trying to illicit the responses that have transpired. Definitely not to create a scene, or stress anyone out. I'm not sure why everyone has gotten this impression, honestly. So I'm equally shocked as anyone over this thread. Again, my goal here is only to make friends, find common ground and ultimately to put everyone's mind at ease; so that my future posts will be taken in the tone of a friendly, relaxed and creative atmosphere.

In short, everyone chill, no one needs to change! There should never have been any "wtf" moments, no ones saying "fixed it!!!" I'm disappointed you guys ever thought that way at all. Anyways, we're all good here; issue closed.

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Post #: 20

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 12:26:37 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobotCriminal

Wow really didn't mean to start an argument here, sorry about that.

My point was this:

1: If more people submit crash logs/save files then developers have more data to work with and things get fixed faster and more efficiently.
2: Things getting fixed faster and more efficiently equals a better game experience for everyone.
3: Streamlining the process of submitting saves/crash dumps leads to a lot more submissions than just relying on the good will of people to do it. It's hardly uncommon in the game industry to try to make this as easy as possible for people to do, I've seen a number of games go so far as to basically wrap it up and then just ask for end-user permission to fire it off.

#3 is mostly what I was getting at.

Ocelot might have worded it a good bit more strongly then I would have, but he isn't wrong. I understand that no one writes perfect software, and that no matter how hard you QA and beta test things are bound to crop up when you release it to thousands of man hours of end user use on a ton of different hardware configs, and that why I went through the trouble of registering an account and wrapping things up nicely to try to help.

However the bottom line is that I just paid 50 bucks for a piece of software that crashes a whole lot, and frankly a lot of end users are a lot more likely to just smack the close button and go to bed instead of trying to find what forum its supposed to be submitted on. Pointing people in the right direction or implementing some semi-automated version (ie /Crash folder with logs and save files) would probably get a lot more submissions for you guys.

That was my suggestion, and it was from a standpoint of trying to help you out with data collection, not attack you. Sorry if it came across wrong.

Honestly appreciate your concerns and really sorry you experienced the issue. I'm just not a fan of auto loggers or forms primarily because the human interaction gets cut out of it.My issue was how it was worded it because it made it sound like reporting bugs as we do now is a waste of time which it isn't.

Mike

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 12:43:45 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocel0t

Thanks for your time guys, I honestly just wanted the existing bug reporting system built into the game to make it a bit faster. I definitely am not trying to illicit the responses that have transpired. Definitely not to create a scene, or stress anyone out. I'm not sure why everyone has gotten this impression, honestly. So I'm equally shocked as anyone over this thread. Again, my goal here is only to make friends, find common ground and ultimately to put everyone's mind at ease; so that my future posts will be taken in the tone of a friendly, relaxed and creative atmosphere.

In short, everyone chill, no one needs to change! There should never have been any "wtf" moments, no ones saying "fixed it!!!" I'm disappointed you guys ever thought that way at all. Anyways, we're all good here; issue closed.

I get it but the speed at which we resolve thing isn't a problem however don't take my word for it. Take a look at our fix and add lists with every build and ask the players on this forum and get a consensus. if you discover there is an issue with this please let us know.

Part of our thing is we're still developing the game and adding big features for players. This is well known and for now we're happy to do it. The downside is the bugs that may crop up when you add stuff (if you're a pro you know this can happen) but for now players seem to be ok with it as long as we follow up and fix things and move forward. We will stop updating if we start getting significant push back on it.

As Dimitris mentioned if our interactions here start turning to having to validate everything we do and why we're going to pull back big time. We're here to develop a fun game not debate software development methods or discuss microsoft libraries with a **** ton of dependencies that only a large corporation is staffed to support

We know most guys feel the same.

Anyways no hard feelings and thanks for writing in.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 3:33:43 PM

RobotCriminal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobotCriminal
Just bought this game, would be nice if it didn't crash so damn much though . As an aside, if you guys could also make a link to this forum (or better yet, an e-mail or something to avoid making an account) in the pop-up that occurs with a crash that would be helpful to new players.

Anyway, enough griping, game is still fun when it runs so here you go (there are actually 4 crash files, but I forgot to snag the autosave with #1):

Hello,

Could you please try turning off sound effects and seeing if it makes a difference. We've had a number of reports that associate usage of sound effects with an increased frequency of crashes in the current version and we are working on a fix for this.

Thanks!

Done, seems to reduce the OOM crashes substantially. Remaining ones are mostly the "Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object" .

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Post #: 23

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 3:36:15 PM

RobotCriminal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Valid points, especially RE: hardware config.

Also FWIW it was a genuine surprise to me that this isn't a day job. I honestly thought you guys were a small full time studio (says something about the end product I guess)

< Message edited by RobotCriminal -- 1/5/2015 4:47:40 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 3:45:30 PM

RobotCriminal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Honestly appreciate your concerns and really sorry you experienced the issue. I'm just not a fan of auto loggers or forms primarily because the human interaction gets cut out of it.My issue was how it was worded it because it made it sound like reporting bugs as we do now is a waste of time which it isn't.

Mike

Fair enough, poorly worded then.

My actual point was reporting bugs by end-users is basically ESSENTIAL to have any hope of squashing them. I was actually trying to help, not bitch.

And it could be worse really, game still seems really young and has an active dev team committed to fixing broke stuff quickly which is like 95% of the battle. Keep up the good work

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Post #: 25

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/5/2015 3:47:27 PM

Ocel0t

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Right, and that's where I was trying to say "I get it, I empathize." In 14 years I've yet to see even the best programmers integrate something significant without at least some issues .

Anyways, in my view, you guys are doing yourselves proud with the development of the game.

Thanks again for your time, sorry for the confusion, and I look forward to more fruitful threads in the future.

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Post #: 26

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/6/2015 4:34:57 AM

Casinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobotCriminal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Valid points, especially RE: hardware config.

Also FWIW it was a genuine surprise to me that this isn't a day job. I honestly thought you guys were a small full time studio (says something about the end product I guess)

Yeah, it's an amazing product (and improving all the time) for a small group of part-timers. Imagine their "part time" covers more hours than my day job.

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Post #: 27

RE: [LOG] Separate crashes - 1/6/2015 4:16:31 PM

batek688

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
I'm just not a fan of auto loggers or forms primarily because the human interaction gets cut out of it.

To expand a bit here, Mikmyk makes a great point and anyone who deals with QA reports out of an offshore shop will recognize this. When you have an auto-form, your success at recreation/resolution is very dependent on the ability of that autoform to completely capture everything. The catch-22 is that in order to "catch everything" the form gets huge and to the point of being a hindrance to the person trying to recreate/debug, rather than a help. A human explanation and minimal data will either be sufficient to solve OR be sufficient to establish a joint context for some back and forth to quickly recreate/resolve. Think of the autosave as the autoform with the text you post as the context. A far cleaner solution, IMO. My only "change" would be to have the autosave on a crash zip-up the file to save me a step when uploading -- but then I make no attempt to hide that yes, I am that freakin lazy!

Think of a conversation with the wife. I just want her to tell me what she bought, not to spend 30 mins telling me about the trip to the mall, what the traffic was like, what songs were on the radio, the stores she went into, etc. Just tell me how much money you spent! =)

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Post #: 28