Bleeding the Luftwaffe

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West >> Bleeding the Luftwaffe

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Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 8:19:05 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
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Great game so far that I am still learning, particularly on the air war....but I am curious from those with some experience how the long game goes with the Luftwaffe.

Looking first at the production figures, production rates for many key airframes is pretty high; specifically Me-109 and FW 190 models; unless the Allies really try to put a focus on them, it looks like it will be difficult to bleed the Luftwaffe via airframes. That's my first reaction, a fair number of airframes available.

In the campaign game, though, the Luftwaffe only gets 37 trained pilots a turn! This, compared to 640 between the RAF and USAAF. Not only that, you start with no pool to speak of, so while the Luftwaffe fields a fairly large force in 1943, it looks like in game you're going to quickly run into problems with trained pilots.

Is pilot numbers the key problem for the Luftwaffe?

What is the consequence of using un-trained pilots? Do late-war German players find themselves sending up rookies in Me-109 and other available airframes, just to get something into the skies?

Just wondering, and seems like a reasonable design decision, since IRL the Luftwaffe was hurting for pilots more than airframes at the end of the war, with pilot training in really sorry shape

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RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 8:32:00 PM

marion61

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
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I'm in a mid-April server game as the wa's, and my opponent says he's having to disband transport groups to get new pilots. He has the planes, just not the pilots. On another note, he's lost over 12k planes up to this point, to my 24k and I do get a lot of target practice strafing airfields full of planes, but no pilots I guess. In my axis game, I only commit them where they can accomplish something, then move my bombers out of ground strike range. You can't win the air war as the axis, but you can cripple the WA effort, and cause delays in his operations. Time as the axis is on your side. Canadians and the other small allied nations have this issue from time to time as they can't keep up with their pilot losses.

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 1/4/2015 9:33:39 PM >

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 2

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 9:00:03 PM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

I'm at December 43 in 3 server games (Axis), and my experience is (playing with eastern box On):

Fight-Bombers
-Missing from 700 to 1000 airframes for the Bf109 across the Eastern and Western Front. Disbanding airgroups with low ready aircrafts, or else % of ready Aircraft per wing gets too low.
-Me410 barely have enough airframes to fly at 20% settings
-You have 11 wings of FW190 A 4 and 5, the obsolete models. I had no chance to upgrade this with the lack of FB airframes. Disbanded them slowly until i had none available to fly at 20%.
-Low count of the other models.

Night Fighters
-Around 200 Night fighters in Pool. Night casualties are extremely low. Might switch them to day interceptions

Tactical Bombers and Level Bombers
-No problems here. Only use them in mass against invasions, then let them rest.

Disbanded patrol crafts (almost non existent replacement production).
I receive alot of airwings via turn replacements, with 0 airplanes. Disbanded immediately if they are FBs.

Edit: Once i get the turns back in the server games i'll do a more detailed report. I'm able to keep High values of experience and morale in most FB wings from the interceptions, but the main problem is lack of airframes.

< Message edited by Jajusha -- 1/4/2015 10:03:03 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 9:13:13 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Interesting feedback, and it makes sense to use Luftwaffe bombers only in critical situations in short bursts, just as the RL Luftwaffe did

I was not aware of the trick of disbanding Transports for the pilots. What other use does the LW have for transports anyway? I can't imagine you'll do a Para drop, and using them to run supplies, I can see the Allies getting wise to this quick and shooting them down in droves. Better to put them in an airframe where they can fight back....

As far as the Regia Aeronautica, it looks like the best strategy is to throw them right at the Allies right away, since it's basically "use it or lose it".....

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RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 9:16:25 PM

Helpless

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Joined: 8/27/2004
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quote:

I was not aware of the trick of disbanding Transports for the pilots. What other use does the LW have for transports anyway?

Pilots with transport plane specialty won't do any good.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 5

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 10:27:26 PM

cmunson

Posts: 6238
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Is pilot numbers the key problem for the Luftwaffe? Q-ball

Yes, they have plenty of fighters but only get 35 trained pilots a turn, way less than losses.

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Chris

(in reply to Helpless)

Post #: 6

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 10:29:40 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

After the Allies land in Italy and sea interdiction becomes less important, can you send your bomber groups to the East to boost the CV value and then pull back out a ground division that would be more useful?

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RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/4/2015 10:33:35 PM

marion61

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline

GOOD! Now I won't have to shoot down all his transport fighter pilots

. There's no way the axis can sustain 2-1 casualty ratios.

(in reply to Helpless)

Post #: 8

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/5/2015 2:52:44 AM

BJP III

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Great game so far that I am still learning, particularly on the air war....but I am curious from those with some experience how the long game goes with the Luftwaffe.

Looking first at the production figures, production rates for many key airframes is pretty high; specifically Me-109 and FW 190 models; unless the Allies really try to put a focus on them, it looks like it will be difficult to bleed the Luftwaffe via airframes. That's my first reaction, a fair number of airframes available.

In the campaign game, though, the Luftwaffe only gets 37 trained pilots a turn! This, compared to 640 between the RAF and USAAF. Not only that, you start with no pool to speak of, so while the Luftwaffe fields a fairly large force in 1943, it looks like in game you're going to quickly run into problems with trained pilots.

Is pilot numbers the key problem for the Luftwaffe?

What is the consequence of using un-trained pilots? Do late-war German players find themselves sending up rookies in Me-109 and other available airframes, just to get something into the skies?

Just wondering, and seems like a reasonable design decision, since IRL the Luftwaffe was hurting for pilots more than airframes at the end of the war, with pilot training in really sorry shape

IIRC, historically, the fundamental problem was lack of fuel. The Germans did not even have enough to supply their combat aircraft requirements, and consequently had almost none for training purposes. They did not lack too much for airframes or potential pilots, but just did not have the wherewithal to train the new ones.

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 9

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/5/2015 7:51:43 PM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

Bringing more data to the discussion.

This is basicly the same around my current 3 games against Players around December 43.

Missing alot of fighter airframes, noticed by the lack of 700 BF 109G-6 and 500 frames for other models.
Bombers Ok, minor loses to report.
Missing around 400 pilots but, for now, able to keep an experienced and effective air force without resorting to rookies.
General number of airframes goes up BUT they are on a slow decline in eastern front (same with the number of men, while the number of total ready men increases, it declines in the eastern while increases in west)

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< Message edited by Jajusha -- 1/5/2015 8:53:27 PM >

(in reply to BJP III)

Post #: 10

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/6/2015 5:27:00 AM

Denniss

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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The aircraft upgrade function still seems to be buggy, too slow or incapable. It should be able to jump to the next upgrade if the immediate aircraft is unavailable. Thus Fw 190 A-4 should jump-upgrade to A-6 instead of waiting for some A-5s to be released. Really bad to see Bf 110 F-4 in desparate need of aircraft while hundreds of G-4s are sitting in pool.
Plus it's strange to see that many aircraft in pool instead of getting delivered to units.

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Post #: 11

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/6/2015 6:26:24 AM

Helpless

Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

The aircraft upgrade function still seems to be buggy, too slow or incapable. It should be able to jump to the next upgrade if the immediate aircraft is unavailable. Thus Fw 190 A-4 should jump-upgrade to A-6 instead of waiting for some A-5s to be released. Really bad to see Bf 110 F-4 in desparate need of aircraft while hundreds of G-4s are sitting in pool.
Plus it's strange to see that many aircraft in pool instead of getting delivered to units.

Please post a detailed report with save if you see any bug. So far there is no evidence of any bug. There could be many reasons for the planes seen in the pool. One of them is that production happens after replacements, so there was 9x G6 after replacements and upgrades. Pilot management, EF replacement specific, lack of air support, supplies, etc, can make your planes not being used.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 12

RE: Bleeding the Luftwaffe - 1/6/2015 12:49:53 PM

Denniss

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline

Please check your air units, I had a similar situation in a no-airdoctrine human-only test with the 1943 campaign. I only noticed after several turns that all air units were on manual upgrade. The situation improved afterwards although for some strange reason the majority of changes were swaps (even those following upgrade paths like Fw 190A-5 to A-6).

(in reply to Helpless)

Post #: 13