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Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use your older IJN DDs?

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use your older IJN DDs? Page: [1]
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Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use your ol... - 1/5/2015 3:03:48 PM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
Status: offline 		As a noob I am constantly loading the game up an trying stuff out, preparing for the coming conflict.

What do the veteran players like to do with their old DDs?

Minekazes, are they good at anything? If not, what are they best at? ASW TF? Escort? APD?

Wakatakes and Kamikazes have the range to be more versatile but Minekazes are just short legged, IMO they should have been E converted from day one, trade speed for range.

How "good" can these three classes, Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze become in the ASW/ surface combat department with "bad" DCs/torpedos?
How much will leaders and experience do?
Any special role you have come up with? If you dont want to share here for OPSEC, please PM.


Mutsukis have the Long Lance so they can still be comitted to surface actions? How well do they do?
Still the DC upgrade is wise to make for versatility and darker days in the future as escorts?



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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/5/2015 4:41:48 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		You need destroyers... you are desperately short of DDs, i wouldn't convert them to anything; just keep them close to a port/ tender/ AO and they will work fine. Use the better ones for long range forays/ CV escort.

They have "old", not "bad" torpedoes; moreover, because they are shorter range than long lance, sometimes you get better accuracy as the skipper needs to get closer before launching them.

And Japanese ASW will be lacking for most of the war.. get used to it; these destroyers will not kill, but keep the submarines under the surface, which is what they are designed to do

(in reply to Hyacinth)
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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/5/2015 4:50:24 PM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

You need destroyers... you are desperately short of DDs, i wouldn't convert them to anything; just keep them close to a port/ tender/ AO and they will work fine. Use the better ones for long range forays/ CV escort.

They have "old", not "bad" torpedoes; moreover, because they are shorter range than long lance, sometimes you get better accuracy as the skipper needs to get closer before launching them.

And Japanese ASW will be lacking for most of the war.. get used to it; these destroyers will not kill, but keep the submarines under the surface, which is what they are designed to do


So they can actually sink enemy warships in some sensble odds and used in surface action intentionally?

For me they look to fit in dedicated ASW task forces and as leaders/pairs in escort groups consisting of mainly PBs.


< Message edited by Hyacinth -- 1/5/2015 5:50:42 PM >

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/5/2015 5:11:45 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Early war they are better than most enemy destroyers you will face; they have night fighting training, good DP guns and working torpedoes; which cannot be said to the Clemsons you will face initially

Late war, they will be as poor as the newer ones.

And I personally prefer to use SCs and PBs to do ASW; at least early on there are more pressing needs for destroyers: invasion TF, distant cover, offensive operations, raids.
Once you own the SRA, then you can think about using them for ASW or convoy escort

(in reply to Hyacinth)
Post #: 4
RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/5/2015 5:28:40 PM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Early war they are better than most enemy destroyers you will face; they have night fighting training, good DP guns and working torpedoes; which cannot be said to the Clemsons you will face initially

Late war, they will be as poor as the newer ones.

And I personally prefer to use SCs and PBs to do ASW; at least early on there are more pressing needs for destroyers: invasion TF, distant cover, offensive operations, raids.
Once you own the SRA, then you can think about using them for ASW or convoy escort


What are the typical losses for you in these classes if used in this way?


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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/5/2015 7:10:22 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		There are no typicals in this game

Answer is: It depends...
what is your TF force composition? what is the enemy's? is it night or day? surprise? ammo magazines are full? is he?

read some AAR to get an idea. Under similar conditions, early war, Japanese 2nd rate DDs will perform better than Allied 2nd rate DDs in naval engagements due to: better leaders, better experience, working torpedoes.
Japanese commanders tend to be very aggresive too; which is sometimes good and sometimes bad



(in reply to Hyacinth)
Post #: 6
RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/6/2015 9:24:04 PM   
Hyacinth

 

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Joined: 9/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

There are no typicals in this game

Answer is: It depends...
what is your TF force composition? what is the enemy's? is it night or day? surprise? ammo magazines are full? is he?

read some AAR to get an idea. Under similar conditions, early war, Japanese 2nd rate DDs will perform better than Allied 2nd rate DDs in naval engagements due to: better leaders, better experience, working torpedoes.
Japanese commanders tend to be very aggresive too; which is sometimes good and sometimes bad





Thank you for your answers.

I am afraid to loose the second rates in actions that I could dominate with air superiority, CAs, CLs and first rate DDs anyways?

Their gained experience and agressive leaders look to be waiting to be trained for hunting subs, I think hunter-killer groups and coastal command ASW aircraft is something I want to get going from day one.

How many sub kills is it possible to get from this combo in the game?
I am happy for keeping them under or detected but kills would be nice also.
I have the public beta patch and Babes installed, the mod is new to me so have no experience with the changes it makes to ASW combat.


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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 12:49:46 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
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Second rate destroyers have a mediocre DC capability (same can be said about 1st rate)

Kills? probably zero until much later in the war when you get better "E" ships

With some luck plus hitting them in shallow water and/ or a combination of high experienced ASW flights+ highly aggressive good commanding DDs you will start getting "Mission kills"; meaning the sub is damaged and then forced to port; sometimes (few times) sinking en route. For killing subs you need British destroyers/ corvettes.



(in reply to Hyacinth)
Post #: 8
RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 6:32:02 AM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


Second rate destroyers have a mediocre DC capability (same can be said about 1st rate)

Kills? probably zero until much later in the war when you get better "E" ships

With some luck plus hitting them in shallow water and/ or a combination of high experienced ASW flights+ highly aggressive good commanding DDs you will start getting "Mission kills"; meaning the sub is damaged and then forced to port; sometimes (few times) sinking en route. For killing subs you need British destroyers/ corvettes.






OK, so I have to be happy to just spoiling the operations of the enemy subs.

From the manual:

quote:

The effectiveness of a TF’s escort is determined
by its:
1. Maximum speed
2. Crew Experience
3. ASW Weapons
4. The total number of escorts in the TF



quote:

Prior to 1943, Japanese crews
perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they
perform at 80% of their crew rating.



These are the main reasons I am inclined to use the second rates mostly in ASW/E role
Only thing I cant influence are the ASW weapons outside the upgrades, otherwise they look to be the best ASW ships I can muster.


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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 7:17:42 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Certainly after the initial expansion, I use the Minekazes as convoy escorts.

I

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 7:43:58 AM   
Hyacinth

 

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Joined: 9/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Certainly after the initial expansion, I use the Minekazes as convoy escorts.

I


Do you think my fears of large attritional losses to them by use in combat duty is unfounded and most will survive early use in the narrow waters of the SRA and Solomons?





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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 1:47:23 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		You can get some ideas here :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3535609&mpage=1&key=2nd%2Crate


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Post #: 12
RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 3:16:29 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
quote:

Do you think my fears of large attritional losses to them by use in combat duty is unfounded and most will survive early use in the narrow waters of the SRA and Solomons?


No, prolonged naval combat as time goes on will result in the elimination of the IJN. You can't really avoid that unless you are Norwegian bloke whose name escapes me at the mo!

You need convoy escorts with ASW, and I find them useful enough for that, especially on the ones that move resource/oil/fuel back to the HI

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 3:23:33 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		For what it's worth, I keep all my old DDs as DDs or fast "E" (when they can upgrade).
They are much more usefull as DDs or fast Es than as APDs.
The Fast "E"s can be used just like DDs too, but get a very interesting upgrade in term of ASW power.

But my experience is just with DBB...where the Japanese ASW is...well... almost non-existant

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 3:32:53 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

But my experience is just with DBB...where the Japanese ASW is...well... almost non-existant


Yes!

that is what I am trying to point out here; building a dedicated ASW TF with 2nd rate DD is not the best use. PC, SCs, PBs are better options

2nd rate DDs best feature is speed (15k cruiser, 30+ full), so best to use it for: escorting invasions, escorting fast convoys, fast transport missions, distant cover, or as backup SAC in areas where you not expecting to see the best Allied forces.
A Destroyer division of 1 CL + 7 2nd rate DDs is still a very credible force against raiders,


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 1/7/2015 4:34:20 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 3:40:49 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

But my experience is just with DBB...where the Japanese ASW is...well... almost non-existant


Yes!

that is what I am trying to point out here; building a dedicated ASW TF with 2nd rate DD is not the best use. PC, SCs, PBs are better options

2nd rate DDs best feature is speed (15k cruiser, 30+ full), so best to use it for: escorting invasions, escorting fast convoys, fast transport missions, distant cover, or as backup SAC in areas where you not expecting to see the best Allied forces.
A Destroyer division of 1 CL + 7 2nd rate DDs is still a very credible force against raiders,




Not only against Raiders. Send them to the middle of an allied invasion group of TFs and, with some luck, you can avoid the big boys and get to the loaded and juicy APA/AKAs

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/7/2015 4:21:02 PM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

You can get some ideas here :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3535609&mpage=1&key=2nd%2Crate




Thank you!

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/8/2015 6:52:19 AM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
Status: offline 		This all depends on the scenario you play naturally, I am liking the Babeslite that I installed, what do you guys recommend for a PBEM play?

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/16/2015 6:20:51 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hyacinth

This all depends on the scenario you play naturally, I am liking the Babeslite that I installed, what do you guys recommend for a PBEM play?



for PBEM, defenetly, DBB + extended map + stacking limits is the way to go

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/16/2015 1:59:08 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		You will want to upgrade 4-6 of the Minekazes to APDs. They lose a little speed (top end drops from 35 to 29) but not as much as the Momi class (32 to 18 - avoid this conversion like the plague). But the huge benefit is the Minekaze class APDs get Type 13 air radar in 8/42. That is it for Japanese radar until 1943, with the exception of the Shokaku class CVs in June '42 and the Mogami class CAs in July (which you would be insane to select since it takes 240 freaking days to complete, and by then you're in 1943 and can take the 30 day conversion for a similar result in April).

They make perfect escorts for certain missions since their speed is a nice fit with your Baby KB's and old BB SCTFs. A must-do conversion, in my estimation.

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AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

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RE: Minekaze, Wakatake and Kamikaze, how do you use you... - 1/17/2015 8:51:39 AM   
Hyacinth

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/1/2014
Status: offline 		The Minekazes make good APDs for sure but I think keeping most as DDs is a must untill you get the Mutsukis upgraded.

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