Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Tactical failings? What are you talking about. If the RN smashed the invasion and took similar losses as Crete it would be a resounding success. German heavy forces would be just as vulnerable as the RNs. The light units, DDs and cruisers would slice and dice the invasion at night. The RN was not shy about sailing into harms way and would take the losses if it meant crushing the invasion. The political blow back would be devastating for Germany and further inspire the underground movements and neutral nations to resist. This would impact Barbarossa and Marita Merkur in the Balkans.

The Royal Navy would get bloodied, but they are defending there home turf and it would fUrther damage the armed forces of Germany .

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:


At least, whilst not addressing the points I made, you at least seem to have taken them on board with the 5%/1% comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Now we have come to argue about the definitions of phrases rather than the actual argument.

Time to toss in the flag.

Ah, but the invasion is NOT impossible. It REALLY isn´t.

It also is not impossible that a cold glass of water starts to boil in front of you without the help of any external energy source.

mm tries to make a point. Don´t you see?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Damned forum ate my reply. That's the second time it's happened this week

Let's find something we can agree on.

1. The German plan was poor, and had several flaws.
2. The requirements for Sea Lion (namely Luftwaffe air superiority) could have been attained.
3. The German plan had only a small chance for success, but it's success was not an impossibility.

quote:


At least, whilst not addressing the points I made, you at least seem to have taken them on board with the 5%/1% comment.

The 5%/1% distinction is mine.

Your original statement was that it was impossible for Sea Lion to succeed.

Have you, in light of the discussions in this thread, changed your mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Now we have come to argue about the definitions of phrases rather than the actual argument.

Time to toss in the flag.

Ah, but the invasion is NOT impossible. It REALLY isn´t.

It also is not impossible that a cold glass of water starts to boil in front of you without the help of any external energy source.

mm tries to make a point. Don´t you see?

At least someone gets it.

Possibility =/= Impossibility.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Can someone tell me how many of the Brit farmers in June and July had shotguns versus pitch forks! How many actual units were available? Did they have any weapons? All my reading over the years leads me to believe the actual armed and effective Brit forces were minimal. The window for the Krauts was June-July....Sept was too late without a major effort.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Can someone tell me how many of the Brit farmers in June and July had shotguns versus pitch forks! How many actual units were available? Did they have any weapons? All my reading over the years leads me to believe the actual armed and effective Brit forces were minimal. The window for the Krauts was June-July....Sept was too late without a major effort.

warspite1

This is it - in its entirety

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

However, ammunition and supplies from the US and at home were coming in all the time and by September were appreciably greater in number in all areas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Damned forum ate my reply. That's the second time it's happened this week

Let's find something we can agree on.

1. The German plan was poor, and had several flaws.
2. The requirements for Sea Lion (namely Luftwaffe air superiority) could have been attained.
3. The German plan had only a small chance for success, but it's success was not an impossibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

However, ammunition and supplies from the US and at home were coming in all the time and by September were appreciably greater in number in all areas.

Ah-HA! I knew it! Clearly we-the good 'ole US of freakin' A won the so-called "Battle of Britain" and defeated a nazi invasion apriori. When ze Germans heard that we were involved they hung it up. A little credit where credit is due please Warspite1.

And rightly so that ze Germans should hang it up when they did. This guy was gonna come back after 'em. And he was kinda pissed. Here he is earnestly walking the flight line dressed inexplicably for a formal gathering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

On a serious note:

What, exactly, were we shipping over that could be of immediate use (armaments) to the British in that critical window? Our sidearms, long arms, artillery, ammunition, tanks, etc. etc. were different from your own. It's not like we had vast stores of Lee-Enfields sitting in some warehouse in Baltimore, right? I could understand food, gasoline (petrol to you lot), diesel, lubricants, and uniformly interchangeable supplies being useful, but arms and armaments weren't 'plug and play' standards back then.

On a related note: There was an American series of series a few years back: Frontier house, Victorian house, Blitz house (I think) and so forth. They dealt with reality TV, but in a realistic manner. Participants were precluded from living differently than pioneers, victorian-era families and circa 1940s London families were for a period of time. The transformation and adoption of the hardships was fascinating television.

In the Blitz house, the family received food aid from America. They-in real life-were choked up about the unexpected bonanza from their American cousins. It wasn't great food-I recall dehydrated eggs-but it supplemented their meager rations nicely. That gratitude has stuck with me ever since. It likely was as heartfelt on the show as it was in reality back then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Basically, the Germans would have needed to take some English port by suprise with a huge para drop. Then rush ship convoys - xAKs with troops and heavy equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

On a serious note:

What, exactly, were we shipping over that could be of immediate use (armaments) to the British in that critical window? Our sidearms, long arms, artillery, ammunition, tanks, etc. etc. were different from your own. It's not like we had vast stores of Lee-Enfields sitting in some warehouse in Baltimore, right? I could understand food, gasoline (petrol to you lot), diesel, lubricants, and uniformly interchangeable supplies being useful, but arms and armaments weren't 'plug and play' standards back then.

On a related note: There was an American series of series a few years back: Frontier house, Victorian house, Blitz house (I think) and so forth. They dealt with reality TV, but in a realistic manner. Participants were precluded from living differently than pioneers, victorian-era families and circa 1940s London families were for a period of time. The transformation and adoption of the hardships was fascinating television.

In the Blitz house, the family received food aid from America. They-in real life-were choked up about the unexpected bonanza from their American cousins. It wasn't great food-I recall dehydrated eggs-but it supplemented their meager rations nicely. That gratitude has stuck with me ever since. It likely was as heartfelt on the show as it was in reality back then.

Here's the answer to your question : http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/index.html

And yes , 1917 Enfield 303 rifles WERE sitting around in warehouses. I recall that there was a problem with some of those rifles in 1940 , causing a minor scandal as many of the rifles had been treated with mineral oil vice linseed oil causing their stocks to shattered when used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

They weren't .303s Stevo.

In 1940 it was 500,000, In 1941, it was 120,000, all of the US Rifle, cal .30, M1917: a US mod and production of the Lee-Enfield, cal .303, P14. Roughly 2,200,000 manufactured by Remington and Winchester from 1916. It was chambered and rifled for the US .30-06 cartridge. Lend/lease weapons were specially marked so as to avoid confusion with the similar British P14 that used the .303 cartridge.

US actually made 3 times more Enfield M1917s than Springfield M1903s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The RN would have likely held back the heavier ships to oppose the larger German ships if they had been committed. If the German large ships had been committed, the RN would have outnumbered them.

.....Everything either has to be landed at a port, or via inefficient boats not intended to unload cargo over a beach. The expeditionary force would be bogged down with low supply on beaches that are heavily mined with barbed wire and other beach defenses. Bomber Command which was not involved in the battle to this point is engaged attacking the landed forces and/or the supply ships coming in.

Bill

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Apollo 11 (Leo) has a really interesting link on this subject - hopefully he will see this and provide.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:


Operation Sealion - summary of an exercise held at the Staff College, Sandhurst in 1974.





The full text is in 'Sealion' by Richard Cox. The scenario
is based on the known plans of each side, plus previously
unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940.
Each side (played by British and German officers respectively)
was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted
on a scale model of SE England constructed at the School
of Infantry. The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland,
Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher
Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz
Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert.

The main problem the Germans face is that are a) the
Luftwaffe has not yet won air supremacy; b) the possible
invasion dates are constrained by the weather and tides
(for a high water attack) and c) it has taken until
late September to assemble the necessary shipping.

Glossary
FJ = Fallschirmjaeger (German paratroops)
MTB = Motor Torpedo Boat (German equivalent, E-Boat)
DD = Destroyer
CA = Heavy Cruiser
BB = Battleship
CV = Aircraft Carrier

22nd September - morning
The first wave of a planned 330,000 men hit the beaches
at dawn. Elements of 9 divisions landed between
Folkestone and Rottingdean (near Brighton).
In addition 7th FJ Div landed at Lympne to take the airfield.

The invasion fleet suffered minor losses from MTBs during
the night crossing, but the RN had already lost one
CA and three DDs sunk, with one CA and two DDs damaged,
whilst sinking three German DDs. Within hours of the landings
which overwhelmed the beach defenders, reserve formations
were despatched to Kent. Although there were 25 divisions
in the UK, only 17 were fully equipped, and only three
were based in Kent, however the defence plan relied on
the use of mobile reserves and armoured and mechanised
brigades were committed as soon as the main landings were
identified.

Meanwhile the air battle raged, the Luftwaffe flew 1200
fighter and 800 bomber sorties before 1200 hrs. The RAF
even threw in training planes hastily armed with bombs,
but the Luftwaffe were already having problems with their
short ranged Me 109s despite cramming as many as possible
into the Pas de Calais.

22nd - 23rd September
The Germans had still not captured a major port, although
they started driving for Folkestone. Shipping unloading
on the beaches suffered heavy losses from RAF bombing
raids and then further losses at their ports in France.

The U-Boats, Luftwaffe and few surface ships had lost
contact with the RN, but then a cruiser squadron with
supporting DDs entered the Channel narrows and had to
run the gauntlet of long range coastal guns, E-Boats
and 50 Stukas. Two CAs were sunk and one damaged. However
a diversionary German naval sortie from Norway was
completely destroyed and other sorties by MTBS and DDs
inflicted losses on the shipping milling about in the
Channel. German shipping losses on the first day
amounted to over 25% of their invasion fleet, especially
the barges, which proved desperately unseaworthy.

23rd Sept dawn - 1400 hrs.
The RAF had lost 237 planes out 1048 (167 fighters and
70 bombers), and the navy had suffered enough losses such
that it was keeping its BBs and CVs back, but large
forces of DDs and CAs were massing. Air recon showed a
German buildup in Cherbourg and forces were diverted to
the South West.

The German Navy were despondant about their losses,
especially as the loss of barges was seriously
dislocating domestic industry. The Army and Airforce
commanders were jubilant however, and preperations for
the transfer of the next echelon continued along with
the air transport of 22nd Div, despite Luftwaffe losses
of 165 fighters and 168 bombers. Out of only 732 fighters
and 724 bombers these were heavy losses. Both sides
overestimated losses inflicted by 50%.

The 22nd Div airlanded successfully at Lympne, although
long range artillery fire directed by a stay-behind
commando group interdicted the runways. The first British
counterattacks by 42nd Div supported by an armoured
brigade halted the German 34th Div in its drive on Hastings.
7th Panzer Div was having difficulty with extensive
anti-tank obstacles and assault teams armed with sticky
bombs etc. Meanwhile an Australian Div had retaken
Newhaven (the only German port), however the New Zealand
Div arrived at Folkestone only to be attacked in the
rear by 22nd Airlanding Div. The division fell back on
Dover having lost 35% casualties.

Sep 23rd 1400 - 1900 hrs
Throughout the day the Luftwaffe put up a maximum effort,
with 1500 fighter and 460 bomber sorties, but the RAF
persisted in attacks on shipping and airfields. Much of
this effort was directed for ground support and air
resupply, despite Adm Raeders request for more aircover
over the Channel. The Home Fleet had pulled out of air
range however, leaving the fight in the hands of 57 DDs
and 17 CAs plus MTBs. The Germans could put very little
surface strength against this. Waves of DDs and CAs
entered the Channel, and although two were sunk by U-Boats,
they sank one U-Boat in return and did not stop. The German
flotilla at Le Havre put to sea (3 DD, 14 E-Boats) and at
dusk intercepted the British, but were wiped out, losing
all their DDs and 7 E-Boats.

The Germans now had 10 divisions ashore, but in many
cases these were incomplete and waiting for their
second echelon to arrive that night. The weather
was unsuitable for the barges however, and the decision
to sail was referred up the chain of command.

23rd Sep 1900 - Sep 24th dawn
The Fuhrer Conference held at 1800 broke out into bitter
inter-service rivalry - the Army wanted their second
echelon sent, and the navy protesting that the
weather was unsuitable, and the latest naval defeat
rendered the Channel indefensible without air support.
Goring countered this by saying it could only be done
by stopped the terror bombing of London, which in turn
Hitler vetoed. The fleet was ordered to stand by.

The RAF meanwhile had lost 97 more fighters leaving only
440. The airfields of 11 Group were cratered ruins, and
once more the threat of collapse, which had receded in
early September, was looming. The Luftwaffe had lost
another 71 fighters and 142 bombers. Again both sides
overestimated losses inflicted, even after allowing for
inflated figures.

On the ground the Germans made good progress towards Dover
and towards Canterbury, however they suffered reverses
around Newhaven when the 45th Div and Australians
attacked. At 2150 Hitler decided to launch the second wave,
but only the short crossing from Calais and Dunkirk. By
the time the order reached the ports, the second wave
could not possibly arrive before dawn. The 6th and 8th
divisions at Newhaven, supplied from Le Havre, would not
be reinforced at all.

Sep 24th dawn - Sep 28th
The German fleet set sail, the weather calmed, and U-Boats,
E-Boats and fighters covered them. However at daylight 5th
destroyer flotilla found the barges still 10 miles off
the coast and tore them to shreds. The Luftwaffe in turn
committed all its remaining bombers, and the RAF responded
with 19 squadrons of fighters. The Germans disabled two
CAs and four DDs, but 65% of the barges were sunk. The
faster steamers broke away and headed for Folkestone,
but the port had been so badly damaged that they could
only unload two at a time.

The failure on the crossing meant that the German
situation became desperate. The divisions had sufficient
ammunition for 2 to 7 days more fighting, but without
extra men and equipment could not extend the bridgehead.
Hitler ordered the deployment on reserve units to Poland
and the Germans began preparations for an evacuation as
further British arracks hemmed them in tighter. Fast
steamers and car ferries were assembled for evacuation
via Rye and Folkestone. Of 90,000 troops who landed
on 22nd september, only 15,400 returned to France, the rest
were killed or captured.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
John I don't know if they were 303 or 30-06. I wasn't there. But the report listed both types of ammo and weapons. Don't tell me. Tell the report. I'm just they guy who linked it. But I tend to believe the report myself.I don't think your that old. My feeling for why the USA would have 303 rifles in storage? The US government is the biggest pack rat on the planet. Old stuff is always turning up. In ww1 we made lots of 303 , some for England , some for Canada. But I also recall in my youth talking to two different WW1 vets who told me that They trained on 303 while in the USA. I myself own a ww2 38 s&w revolver that had been US Army , even though the weapon and caliber had never been accepted or used by the US Army (38 s&w , not to be confused with 38 special , sometimes called 38-200 , was strictly used by the British , but somehow this one missed the boat). I'd not be surprised that somewhere there was a warehouse of the weapons left over because the war ended much sooner than expected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't have to read the thread. This has been hashed over many times before. My only point is that if Adolph really thought he had a chance he would have done it. The man was not adverse to a gamble. So, the fact that he did not should put the question to rest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't have to read the thread. This has been hashed over many times before. My only point is that if Adolph really thought he had a chance he would have done it. The man was not adverse to a gamble. So, the fact that he did not should put the question to rest.

Yes and no. Hitler once said "on land I am a lion , at sea a coward". I've always felt he was queasy with all things naval (no pun intended) especially after the Norway invasion. I'd take him at his word.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't have to read the thread. This has been hashed over many times before. My only point is that if Adolph really thought he had a chance he would have done it. The man was not adverse to a gamble. So, the fact that he did not should put the question to rest.

Yes and no. Hitler once said "on land I am a lion , at sea a coward". I've always felt he was queasy with all things naval (no pun intended) especially after the Norway invasion. I'd take him at his word.

warspite1

Are you sure you got that quote right? I thought it went something like:

A.Hitler: On land I am a twat, at sea I am even twattier.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't have to read the thread. This has been hashed over many times before. My only point is that if Adolph really thought he had a chance he would have done it. The man was not adverse to a gamble. So, the fact that he did not should put the question to rest.

Yes and no. Hitler once said "on land I am a lion , at sea a coward". I've always felt he was queasy with all things naval (no pun intended) especially after the Norway invasion. I'd take him at his word.

warspite1

Are you sure you got that quote right? I thought it went something like:

A.Hitler: On land I am a twat, at sea I am even twattier.....

Obviously it lost something in translation!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805