why is the AI still stupid?

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why is the AI still stupid? - 1/4/2015 6:28:48 AM

battleground

Posts: 104
Joined: 4/26/2009
Status: offline

I thought the ai (in Shadows) was supposed to be superior to previous versions. AI run planets
cannot get rid of pirate bases, have fleets orbiting suns instead of defending or attacking pirates,
build huge amounts of freightors or miners and never use them all (huge extras amounts just cruse
around the homeword). AI build ships only build at the home world not where they are needed, The
great resupply ships that seemed to work so well in the orginial DW never deploy under AI control
letting fleets run out of fuel on stupid missions out of their range, uses capital ships and large
carriers to patrol little mining posts and put frigates into fleets instead.

I know the return of "well, you can run it all yourself you know" but thats not the point the game
is presented as having an AI that can handle mundane or important tasks as needed but does not do
them. It seems incapable of running more than 4-5 system empires.

Is the game currently skewed to small ships and pirate battles instead of the huge empire wide
conficts of the early DW?

Post #: 1

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/4/2015 7:44:31 AM

Sabin Stargem

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline

Chalk it up to the Distant Worlds engine being stretched beyond its limit. If I understand the situation correctly, the developer has been forced to spend a great deal of effort to optimize the performance of the engine, and couldn't do quality assurance for the actual AI that was supposed to benefit. I expect things will be much improved in Distant Worlds II, especially if Code Force adopts Unity5 and hires a dedicated AI programmer.

< Message edited by Sabin Stargem -- 1/4/2015 8:45:35 AM >

(in reply to battleground)

Post #: 2

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/5/2015 11:34:49 AM

aaatoysandmore

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Joined: 9/11/2013
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I think this is what that guy from Stardock ment by a "fun" ai. It's not meant to win or destroy you only to harass you to a certain point and give you what you think is a challenge to your mind. I know the last planet of any race is a stinker to takeover at least it does make that hard. But, for the most part it's just a delaying ai that doesn't try to win unless you are just a complete idiot and let it win.

Now take Galactic Civilization II ai in Twilight of Arnor that's what that guy would call a "good" ai as it will try to defeat you and puts up a pretty good game at higher levels of difficulty above normal. I have hard times just one or two steps above normal and with 13 difficulties I don't think I will ever reach the highest one. Now of course their fantasy game Elemental: Legendary heros sucks pretty much and they should stay away from fantasy as sci-fi is their best designs.

(in reply to Sabin Stargem)

Post #: 3

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 3:34:00 AM

twinkypillow

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Joined: 9/11/2012
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haha..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzkoh56diA

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 4

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 10:01:51 AM

Flinkebeinchen

Posts: 109
Joined: 6/18/2013
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

(...) especially if Code Force adopts Unity5 and hires a dedicated AI programmer

I don't think that will happen... ever

_____________________________

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Diablo 3

(in reply to twinkypillow)

Post #: 5

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 1:01:34 PM

Buio

Posts: 247
Joined: 11/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabin Stargem

Chalk it up to the Distant Worlds engine being stretched beyond its limit. If I understand the situation correctly, the developer has been forced to spend a great deal of effort to optimize the performance of the engine, and couldn't do quality assurance for the actual AI that was supposed to benefit. I expect things will be much improved in Distant Worlds II, especially if Code Force adopts Unity5 and hires a dedicated AI programmer.

I believe it's rather due to the complexity of the game. There is simply to much to program the AI to handle correctly. The AI should be good in DWU because it is a realtime game.

A good AI in a more simple realtime strategy game is the hardest AI you can meet. Compared to a human, an AI is very good at doing many things at the same time, extremely fast. Not only the decision making but also the control.

In a turnbased game an AI should be weaker, as it allows the human to take the time needed to analyze everything and also control things in detail. Of course some games like chess, the AI can analyze more moves over time but I'm thinking of computer strategy games, not classical board games.

(in reply to Sabin Stargem)

Post #: 6

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 1:34:06 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlegroundvehicles
I thought the ai (in Shadows) was supposed to be superior to previous versions. AI run planets
cannot get rid of pirate bases, have fleets orbiting suns instead of defending or attacking pirates,
build huge amounts of freightors or miners and never use them all (huge extras amounts just cruse
around the homeword). AI build ships only build at the home world not where they are needed, The
great resupply ships that seemed to work so well in the orginial DW never deploy under AI control
letting fleets run out of fuel on stupid missions out of their range, uses capital ships and large
carriers to patrol little mining posts and put frigates into fleets instead.

I know the return of "well, you can run it all yourself you know" but thats not the point the game
is presented as having an AI that can handle mundane or important tasks as needed but does not do
them. It seems incapable of running more than 4-5 system empires.

Is the game currently skewed to small ships and pirate battles instead of the huge empire wide
conficts of the early DW?

I know you mentioned Shadows but in Universe there have been a lot of improvements in the AI post release many of which have come from specific suggestions in the forums. I've also released an AI Improvement Mod which makes various changes e.g. there are a lot more large ships.

I really enjoy empire wide conflicts as well. There are a couple of options in set-up: turn Pirates off or turn them way down in numbers and strength. The AI on Extreme difficulty has more resources to handle them but still struggles on Normal difficulties.

I'm all for more AI improvements, for example I have a wishlist in the AI Improvement Mod thread in the OP. But at this stage of the games lifecycle, there is only so much that Matrix will do. The best bet would be suggestions that have a big impact while requiring relatively little coding effort.

As for Distant Worlds 2, I very much hope for a larger team and budget, enabling more resources focused on the AI.

(in reply to battleground)

Post #: 7

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 3:35:20 PM

Cauldyth

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Joined: 6/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
turn Pirates off or turn them way down in numbers and strength.

Turning them off entirely has become my default game setup lately. While I do enjoy the mechanic involving them, I also enjoy games with no pirates and a pre-warp start. Combine that with expensive research, and there's something about that long peaceful initial phase, wondering what other intelligence is out there in the galaxy before finally making first contact.

< Message edited by Cauldyth -- 1/6/2015 4:35:42 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 8

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 6:31:54 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
turn Pirates off or turn them way down in numbers and strength.

Turning them off entirely has become my default game setup lately. While I do enjoy the mechanic involving them, I also enjoy games with no pirates and a pre-warp start. Combine that with expensive research, and there's something about that long peaceful initial phase, wondering what other intelligence is out there in the galaxy before finally making first contact.

You already know what other intelligence is out there you setup the game didn't you? Even if you chose random you still know what each race is and does before encountering them. The only true best game of it is the first game, but even that one you still know what the races are and what they do. There needs to be a game with no idea what you will be facing out there. No description of new races until you encounter them in a game. Now that would be fun an exciting. With each progressing game you might find a new race. You don't get to set the number of ai players against you they will just appear by the size of the map you set. You will have to learn their traits (through spying or diplomacy not automatically know). At least the first time you meet them.

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 9

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 6:57:22 PM

Sabin Stargem

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen

quote:

(...) especially if Code Force adopts Unity5 and hires a dedicated AI programmer

I don't think that will happen... ever

I think that Unity5 isn't unlikely. It costs about $1500 bucks per license - Distant Worlds Universe sells for $60 dollars on Steam, so it takes about 35 customers to cover the cost of Unity. On the other hand, the AI programmer would cost a great deal, if paid a decent salary throughout the lifetime of Distant Worlds II.

Still, I think that getting a team together for Distant Worlds II would be important for Code Force. A lot of new developers will be entering the field, and some will inevitably try to make a game similar to Distant Worlds and surpass it. Whether or not we get to see Distant Worlds III is going to hinge on Code Force's ability to adapt.

(in reply to Flinkebeinchen)

Post #: 10

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 8:16:00 PM

Cauldyth

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
You already know what other intelligence is out there you setup the game didn't you? Even if you chose random you still know what each race is and does before encountering them

Well, yes and no. I set all the races to randomly generated, so I never know which subset of races are going to be in any particular game. I use the Extended mod, so there are more races than slots in my game, so it's never guaranteed which ones will show up. In addition, there's variability to government types, which can have a huge impact on who's going to be friend or foe. In my current game, the Kiadians are my primary enemy, because they are a Military Dictatorship and I'm a Republic. There's also a Dhayut Republic in my current game who are somewhat friendly.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 11

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 10:42:31 PM

aaatoysandmore

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Joined: 9/11/2013
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And you already know those races now don't you? You already know what each different trait can do. You already know what each government will do and be. What I'm saying is make a blind game where you don't know anything from the start. Just like we as humans won't know anything when we start to explore the universe. We'll have to use spying an diplomacy to find out that race's government is and what it is like. You are just playing random setup but you already know the races and everything about the government they are using. So what if the Dhayut are Republic. you already know what replubicans are like.

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 12

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/6/2015 11:44:21 PM

Cauldyth

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Joined: 6/27/2010
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True, a game which dynamically generates races etc. on the fly would be cool!

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 13

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/8/2015 1:52:10 AM

battleground

Posts: 104
Joined: 4/26/2009
Status: offline

I have run 11 test games and have taken out and reloaded DW twice to make sure I get similar results. About 2 in
11 games did my AI empire run things better but still has fleets crusing off stars far off for no reason and does
not respond to pirate attacks other than when it finds bases. It never sends ships to oppose pirate attacks. No
where in Matrix advertising does it state that DWU has superior AI. Any fixes in the AI should be available for
those who have DW Shadows (inclusive of all 3 basic games). If Matrix has allowed DW to continue flawed but went
ahead and improved DWU only I would be very upset, especially since they are still selling the earlier 3 games as
well. Not everybody wants to buy the same thing twice. Not everybody mods or customizes. In fact that is a small
number of players compaired to overall who own a game.

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 14

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/8/2015 11:10:49 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
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Let me put it this way. Until recently I can't remember EVER loosing a game. Patch 1.9.5.10, Universe, with the AI Improvement Mod, Extreme Difficulty and other interesting settings and in a recent game I got hammered.

Also see my response in the other thread.

(in reply to battleground)

Post #: 15

RE: why is the AI still stupid? - 1/8/2015 4:08:09 PM

aaatoysandmore

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Joined: 9/11/2013
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I've got so many ships just hanging around my home base planet I can't even see the planet to click on. I have to use the tabs page more often than not now to select a planet. So many not doing anything game after game. I've edited till I'm blue in the face all ships and mining bases and they still just sit there.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 16