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- 4/4/2001 4:07:00 AM   
El Che

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/18/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: Charles: . My objection all along has been against those who would glorify the SS and those who willingly let themselves be seduced by the myths and legends that surround the SS like a dark cloud. Perhaps you believe that my thoughts about setting up a Kursk campaign as I've proposed might lead to such glorification. If so, then I would like to hear more. Maybe mine wasn't a very good idea and maybe there are better alternatives for a Kursk campaign. .
Victorhaussser: I like huge scenarios, and I like eastern front, so a Kursk Campaign in terms that you describe its one that I would really like to play. As you said AI is much better on the defense than on the attack. That’s why I joy much more offensive campaigns. So I agree that the best way to play Kursk would be from I also agree about LSHA, attached to the IInd SS Pz Corps, is the most playable perspective from a German side campaigns. The reasons are the same that you give: IIdn PzCorps was the only German Corps that made a serious penetration and the only which was near to made a break in soviet defenses (that ends in Prokhorovka battle). Now: My mother was Jew, my wife was Jew. I have lived some years in Israel. And I have left-radical political beliefs. With such background you can be sure that I don’t have much sympathy for Nazis. I subscribe to what you said about abhor SS for what they was and what they did. The SS was criminal organizations and the nazi regime was a criminal regime. And of course I don’t like people who glamorize them. Actually, “don’t like” is a soft expression for what I feel about them. Now: if you do a Kursk campaign, based on LSHA (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, let say it whit all their letters) ... I not only will NOT consider it as an offence or a SS glorification, but also I will download, play and joy it! Because this is a GAME!! You’re talking about an historical recreation about a military confrontation in which some SS formation had a relevant participation. Is not a morbid recreation of SS or Nazi crimes. You’re doing nor a campaign about those killer groups that had followed nazi advance killing Jewish and political adversaries neither something about concentration camps. If you want to avoid any mistrust about this, just write some about what you think about SS, what they did and what they was. As an example of this take a glance of “North of Psel” scenario introduction: “Today you command a large portion of the 3rd SS Panzergrendier division, known by the name "Totenkopf." It was a very experienced and effective unit throughout the second world war, and was also guilty of several atrocities against humanity” Best regards

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Hasta la victoria siempre!

(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 31
- 4/4/2001 5:25:00 AM   
Toey

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 4/10/2000
From: Melbounre
Status: offline 		So we're missing out on what sounded like a great campaign, because it's wrong to us the SS in a computer wargame? That just doesn't seem right.....

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 32
- 4/4/2001 5:38:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		I note that Japanese Atrocities against the Chinese and others haven't stopped the use of Japanese soldiers in scenarios... If one believes that wargaming "glorifies" the German military machine of the Second World War-specifically one part of it Waffen SS (which IMHO don't believe it does), then one shouldn't be involved in it. However, because Mr Hauser in good conscience doesn't think he should design, certainly does not stop others who wish to proceed.

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"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 33
- 4/4/2001 5:50:00 AM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I'd like to express my support for the view point expressed by El Che. The Nazi regime and the SS, be they Allgemeine, Waffen-SS or Totenkopfen, were morally repugnant. This fact is pretty obvious after a little serious historical investigation. However, what we are about here is the recreation of historical military events - not the furtherance of any political adgenda. From the point of view of military historical interest the Battle of Kursk is very interesting, regardless of one's stance on the ideologies of either side. Frankly, the Soviet Union possessed very little if any superior moral standing over the Reich. Since the archives have been opened Russian historians have suggested that the Communists killed about one million people, mostly Russian citizens, for each of their 70 years in power. This is on a par with the Reich's 'score', the Nazi's were just in power a shorter time. Therefore East Front battles can be view with a fine moral distance as two nasty ideologies fighting each other. Of course, if you think about the poor bastards actually involved its pretty ugly, as usual. Ideology be damn, full speed ahead Kursk!

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 34
- 4/4/2001 5:54:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Shack!!!

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"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 35
- 4/4/2001 6:48:00 AM   
Sgt Popov


Posts: 101
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Ga USA
Status: offline 		I would LOVE to play a Kursk Campaign!. I am of Russian descent and many of my relatives were in the Soviet Army. Read any East front book worth its salt, and you will see numerous commanders named Popov. Needless to say, I am not a fan of the untermunsch mentality that was brainwashed into Hitlers fanatical SS units.However, I am very much into military history, and nobody can deny the fact that it was the biggest tank battle in history! (Probably for all time)Also, nobody can deny that the SS units were quite impressive in their military prowess and elan, contributing a large share of the largest gains. I see people here bringing political beliefs into this forum, and I am astounded. :o This is a game and thats all it is. I personally respect the German engineering and craftmanship of their (for the most part) superior AFVs.Ease up, and enjoy this great game Matrix has been kind enough to develop! :)

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- Sergeant, what should I do if my parachute won't open?
- Bring it back and I'll replace it.

(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 36
- 4/4/2001 7:24:00 AM   
Joaquim

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/22/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		All this is more a question of grade, than anything else... should I stop playing any game portaing US subs? You know, I read in a US mag that a US sub commander (in WWII) received a medal, after sending down a jap cargo ship... the weird thing is that he received the medal because after that he emerged the sub to shoot the crew of the cargo... yes, the medal was for the crew, not the cargo.. if I stoped playing any game for the SS, then I would also forbid my kids from playing Age of Empires, or any wargame for what matters... Well, from the strick concern post here, I guess I could let them play with «space» wargames... even if I wonder if none of these portais a «space race» wich actually exists somewhere... :) Victor, I know my opinion is... well, frankly worthless. Anyway, I give (why everybody gives his opinion? but even knowing the valour of it?!? :D ): do it for yourself! Don't tell more about it, don't distribute it - just give it a try and enjoy... this way you don't get involved in this kind of stuff... I hope to hear somehing after you played it!!.. ;)

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 37
- 4/4/2001 7:58:00 AM   
Daniel Oskar


Posts: 123
Joined: 12/15/2000
Status: offline 		If there is so much objection to depicting the SS at Kursk, how about tackling it from the angle of the Grossdeutschland division's assault on the left of the II SS. Their penetration wasn't quite as deep, but no less bloody or challenging. And there is the added bonus of getting to use the new Pzkw V of the 10th Pz Bde attacking with them as a part of the XLVIII Pz Corps.

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 38
- 4/4/2001 8:03:00 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline 		Does everyone realize that there were about 130 Tigers in Zitadelle? Model had 30 and Manstein had about 100 divided among 7 panzer divisions.
quote:

Originally posted by Fabio Prado: Hi, Victorhauser! I am not only wanting this campaign like hell - I also want to post it in The ARMOR Site! A super campaign like this, with lots of Tigers, it sounds like a dream to me! :D What do you think? Kind regards, Fab


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Brent Grenadier Richards




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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 39
- 4/5/2001 2:14:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline 		Upon even further reflection, a Kursk campaign will be extraordinarily difficult to design and play no matter what force is chosen to represent the core. For instance, Model's 9th Army penetrated approximately 15km into the Soviet defenses in 6 days (at which point his offensive collapsed from exhaustion after losing 400 tanks and 50,000 troops). 6 days to go only 15km! Given the daylight conditions of high summer at that latitude (about 18 hours of daylight per day), that means that in 108 hours of daylight, Model's forces advanced about 0.15km per hour (which is about 3.25 hexes per hour in SPWaW terms). Now since each SPWaW turn is around 5-10 minutes (guessing here) that means a 30-turn scenario could represent up to 5 hours of combat or so. Thus, a 30-turn scenario would yield an historical penetration of 16-17 hexes. Now, what player wants to subject himself to the torture of advancing 1/6 the way across an SPWaW map against the most brutal defenses imagineable, for battle after battle after battle? I have gained a much greater appreciation for the real-life hell that must've been Kursk! Even the best rate of advance (that of the II SS Panzer Korps) gained only 40km in 8 days which yields an average advance rate of just over 6 SPWaW hexes per hour (or about 31 SPWaW hexes per 30-turn battle). What this tells me is that the battles of any Kursk campaign will definitely NOT be elegant battles of maneuver. Instead they will be vicious slugfests of carnage. And for players to do as well as their historical counterparts (assuming a German perspective here) means that they lose. If they do better than that then they get a draw. If they do much better then they get a marginal. And if they do fantastically better (fantastically can be interpreted here to mean "pure fantasy") then they get a decisive. Even if I was somehow able to come up with a way to make a Kursk campaign work, who on earth would want to play it knowing ahead of time what they would be getting into??

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VAH

(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 40
- 4/5/2001 7:42:00 AM   
Rick Borovec

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 3/21/2001
From: Rochester, Washington
Status: offline 		Hi Victorhauser! I prefer battles that include more carnage than manuvre. I think you could adjust the victory requirements to reflect that a player doing as well as the germans did receives a victory of a sort. As far as all the other bull*#^% on prior posts, ignore it! Give me good battles/campaigns and I could care less about who the combants were/are. This is a game and I try to keep it in that context. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Boro

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 41
- 4/5/2001 7:05:00 PM   
Paul Goodman

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Status: offline 		10th Pz Bde:!? Yes, that would be real interesting. 200 Panthers drive into a 3 km deep minefield. Lets see, Whermacht, 200 PzKw V, 10 companies of engineers. CCCP, 10,000 mines, 60 12.7 mm machine guns in bunkers, 30 batallions of artillery. I predict a 100% accurate potrayal of the actual event. Tanks drive into minefield, 30 immobilized, the rest suppressed to 99; engineers spend the next three days trying to clear mines under savage artillery fire. Sounds like fun. By the way, victorhauser, does the tone of all of the above mean that you are NOT related to SS Obergruppenfuhrer Paul Hauser? :D Paul (not Hauser)

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(in reply to victorhauser)
Post #: 42
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