RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta)

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 11:55:17 PM

Lycaeon

Posts: 1
Joined: 1/13/2015
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While going through your mod files for my own custom game I noticed that the ackdarian, atuuk, and mechanoid designTemplate files were duplicated inside the mortalen designTemplate file, with possible buggy results. Is this intentional? Since the vanilla mortalen file doesn't have these duplicates I'm pretty sure it's an oversight, but I'd like to know before going ahead with my game.

< Message edited by Lycaeon -- 1/14/2015 12:59:25 AM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 751

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 3:34:55 AM

buncheesy

Posts: 38
Joined: 8/26/2013
Status: offline

Hi Icemania

I started the game after a long break with the distant worlds AI extend 1.03 release. Recently, unfortunately, due to a brain spasm while installing an ssd drive I lost my distant worlds universe install. I had however backed up my game save. I now however find that it wont load with the 1.04 release. any chance of you re-posting or providing a link to the 1.03 release as I am 50 hours in and loving it and would hate not to be able to continue?

cheers.

(in reply to Cauldyth)

Post #: 752

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 6:59:44 AM

Nyku

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/14/2015
Status: offline

First of all: awesome mod!

There's one question I'd like to ask though. Troop Transports have given me headache recently!

So here's my problem: I designed ships with 4 basic troop transport modules for conquering undeveloped planets. I built 6 ships with a total of 2400 troop capacity. Loading them with troops that require 200 space (I think these are called armored forces). I am having more than enough troops on my home planet to be picked up, but loading always stops at 1800/2400. That means one ship being half empy and one entirely empty. Sending these 2 ships to load troops manually did not solve the matter. Sending the entire fleet to load troops again did not work, either.

May this be an AI problem or is there a troops per fleet cap I just don't know about?
(I already tried retrofitting the ships to make clear it's not a design issue.)

< Message edited by Nyku -- 1/14/2015 8:00:25 AM >

(in reply to buncheesy)

Post #: 753

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 8:17:02 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: letmein
Hi Icemania

I started the game after a long break with the distant worlds AI extend 1.03 release. Recently, unfortunately, due to a brain spasm while installing an ssd drive I lost my distant worlds universe install. I had however backed up my game save. I now however find that it wont load with the 1.04 release. any chance of you re-posting or providing a link to the 1.03 release as I am 50 hours in and loving it and would hate not to be able to continue?

cheers.

No worries, here is a link: Extended AI Improvement Mod 1.03

Have fun!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/14/2015 9:18:49 AM >

(in reply to buncheesy)

Post #: 754

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 8:20:03 AM

buncheesy

Posts: 38
Joined: 8/26/2013
Status: offline

Oh Brilliant

Just on queue! kids in bed and the lady watching tele - its evening here. Very much appreciated.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 755

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/14/2015 8:25:41 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lycaeon
While going through your mod files for my own custom game I noticed that the ackdarian, atuuk, and mechanoid designTemplate files were duplicated inside the mortalen designTemplate file, with possible buggy results. Is this intentional? Since the vanilla mortalen file doesn't have these duplicates I'm pretty sure it's an oversight, but I'd like to know before going ahead with my game.

As far as I can tell it has no impact Lycaeon. Started a test game and also loaded up a save and checked the AI Mortalen designs and they look good.

My bad and I�ll ensure those files are removed in the next release to avoid any confusion.

If you want to be sure, feel free to just delete the extra folders when you play.

(in reply to Lycaeon)

Post #: 756

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 8:30:01 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nyku
There's one question I'd like to ask though. Troop Transports have given me headache recently!

So here's my problem: I designed ships with 4 basic troop transport modules for conquering undeveloped planets. I built 6 ships with a total of 2400 troop capacity. Loading them with troops that require 200 space (I think these are called armored forces). I am having more than enough troops on my home planet to be picked up, but loading always stops at 1800/2400. That means one ship being half empy and one entirely empty. Sending these 2 ships to load troops manually did not solve the matter. Sending the entire fleet to load troops again did not work, either.

May this be an AI problem or is there a troops per fleet cap I just don't know about?
(I already tried retrofitting the ships to make clear it's not a design issue.)

It maybe the Troop Loadout settings. Go to the Fleets screen and have a look at Troop Loadout. In Empire Policy you can turn Troop Loadout off entirely under the Troop Recruitment section ... that's what I play and seems to work well.

(in reply to Nyku)

Post #: 757

RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod - 1/14/2015 8:37:00 AM

Nyku

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/14/2015
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Thank you. I'll try as soon as I'm at home and playing :)

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 758

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 8:58:28 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Ok I understand your reasoning with never. All I know is I saw quite an improvement in performance when I changed to flee. If I have 20 capital ships in a fleet, its ok if 1 of them goes off and flees instead of dying trying to add an extra bit of damage when the ship itself is more valuable. Thats just my opinion, but I'm not interested in winning Pyrrhic victories as it's usually more important in the long run to have less of a drain on your economy than win a skirmish, wars are obviously won at the strategic and logistical level in this game not the individual encounter. Maybe consider setting capital ships to never flee and the smaller ships to flee? Because if youre using them past the beginning of the game like the AI would be doing, ships smaller than capital will just be going on straight suicide missions. I think that's counterproductive towards the AI. If you want to say that the capital ships would win a battle but flee instead I understand that and maybe set them to never. This is aimed at the AI because as a human (and as per your recommendation) you don't really build the small ships later in the game, but the AI does. So to have a drain on the ai's economy of constantly replacing suicide destroyers et all might hurt in the long run. I understand you don't have a lot of flexibility here, early in the game you might want to have them set at 'never' to flee, but as the capital ships come to play fleeing is better, you can only pick one, I'd pick fleeing for the smaller ships.

As per the colonization tech, I played on a larger game on normal difficulty normal research using the mod. By the time the AI went to research (i left it on automated) the final colonization tech there is no way there could have been any colonizable planets left in the galaxy. I don't think the 30 to 100m increase warrants being the last in a long tech line. The double growth rate is very powerful (if it works) so I get your reasoning there and I typically only try to research it for my home planet type as at least in the game i played you only really get one shot at one. The thing is that terraforming is kinda necessary as well though because you will undoubtedly have some disasters and what have you.

How about this. Double growth rate (if it works) is indeed very very powerful. It boosts your economy which drives everything in the game. Once you're able to tax planets is when things really get going. Halving the time to max pop is great. Terraforming is a tech that you generally want. The last tech is useless as even if you totally beelined it in a huge galaxy I don't really know if there would be anything left to colonize and that's kinda a fringe case. Plus you'd be sacrificing literally everything else in that tree. Now I'm not totally sure but starting at 100m vs 30 mil might actually more than double your growth rate for a new colony I don't feel like doing math. So it's powerful but pretty useless overall. What if you took that final colonization tech, moved it in front of the doubled growth ones, and if necessary dropped it from like 100m pop to 60m pop or something like that AND gave it terraform? That gives you a chance to grab terraforming and the bigger starting pop, while colonies are still out there and prior to specializing in one planet type. If you think about it, wouldn't it be more logical that you're able to colonize with bigger numbers of people on any planet before you're able to double the growth rate on a specific type of planet anyway? Plus then you'd have terraforming on 1 tech instead of on 5 different ones which is kinda odd to begin with.

I'm not taking shots at you or anything, I'm just throwing around ideas based on what I've seen in my play, and this is a small community so you don't get as much feedback as you would if you were modding Total War or something like that. Let me know what you think.

I certainly agree there will be times �Never Flee� is not the best outcome for the AI but again I�ve seen a lot of situations where �Fleeing at Shields at 20%� causes major problems for the AI as well. With the hybrid option you suggest, early game the fleets are smaller ships and I worry they will leave the fight far too early and have the same issues. So I�m not at all convinced that is the best option across a range of scenarios. A better option would be to see we can get the developer to provide a �Flee at Armour 50%� (but NOT when Shields are lost) option.

With respect to colonisation, I have no concern at all if the final colonisation technology is not yet done when all planets/territory is taken. To me it�s a good thing, you have to make choices, I�ve never been a fan of games where you just research everything. That said, the change you�ve proposed is a good one and I�ll consider it for a future update.

Thank you for your back-up in tech support forum for the double population growth bug, the more people that indicate they agree and keep those threads alive, the more likely it is they will be implemented.

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 759

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 9:36:37 AM

UnfriendlyBG

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Joined: 1/3/2015
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Im recording a 2nd lets play with your mod and I rant pretty hard about the fact that there was not even an acknowledgement of a bug that shouldnt take much more than adding a "2*" somewhere in the code (if its more complicated than that then theres much much much bigger problems with the game. Hopefully they acknowledge.

Now another issue that I've run into. This is gonna sound drastic but... You might consider removing the caleph from the game all together. I randomed them and the AI does not handle them well at all. With their fighter tech it gives you a ridiculous military power which isnt necessarily true. I shouldn't have 10x's the firepower as everyone else when I have 17 ships. (I also learned it takes bases into account). So I have Boskarans (?) and AI left and right being nice to me and giving me money because Im so powerful Im assuming. The carriers are no doubt powerful, but they aren't as powerful as the firepower makes them seem and I think the AI just doesnt handle it well. I think any game that the caleph are in will be strange because it doesnt seem like anyone will attack them because of their falsely inflated firepower, and people will be offering them stuff diplomatically that they really shouldnt. This is 100% a fault of the base game and not yours, the creator needed to fudge those firepowernumbers a little bit when fighters are involved.

Again this is an AI mod so I feel that race makes the AI not act correctly. This is a drastic suggestion, but from what ive seen in this 2nd lets play it is pretty broken. The most evil race in the galaxy is giving me money when I had 8 ships because my military power dwarfed every body due to my fighters. I was a paper tiger.

Thank you for considering my colonization ideas, and hey if the double growth is broken anyway, starting with more people at a planet seems like a good workaround until it is fixed. Also it isn't about researching everything. I'm saying its about research that is effectively worthless. Best case scenario you get limited use out of that final colonization tech if you only work towards it and sacrifice the rest of the tree. Thats not really a choice its more of just a non worthwhile choice.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 760

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 10:39:14 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

I'm all for constructive discussion but I don't support the ranting you just mentioned. I did this Mod for my own games, helping others was just a bonus, so I always appreciate ideas to improve the Mod as they benefit my own games. Matrix have implemented a bunch of my past suggestions and this Mod wouldn't exist at all without their support. Specifically, the ability to mod research build orders was provided after release, the larger ship designs wouldn't work and so on.

There is absolutely no way I'll be removing a race from the Mod. Out of interest, exactly what difficulty and aggression settings are you playing on? I've seen plenty of war declarations on fighter focused races particularly with 1.04 on decent difficulty and aggression settings, even if they are a paper tiger. It also sounds like it's relatively early in the game, you only have 17 ships, and you are proposed to remove a race? That's some serious jumping to conclusions there BG.

As for saying some colonisation research is effectively worthless that is not new. I raised the bug report and reflected that problem here from the start. I'm not going to redesign the tech tree just to work around a bug that should be fixed, because I also have to change the research orders of every single race after making that change. However, I *might* change it for other reasons. The concern I have is your repeated comments such as "by the time the AI went to research (i left it on automated) the final colonization tech there is no way there could have been any colonizable planets left in the galaxy" ... I strongly disagree that is a problem in any way.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/14/2015 11:40:25 AM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 761

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 11:13:33 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

Something like this perhaps BG.

Apart from the structural changes, the research for each planet type is half the cost. I've reduced the storage research required by one tier. So colonisation of different planet types will be faster, but retain the same structure where preferred planet types are cheap, and non-preferred planet types are expensive.

Before you can research the advanced technologies for each specific planet type, you'll need advanced colonisation, the first tier for that planet type and advanced cargo storage. The cost of that research remains high to align with the benefits of double population growth once the bug is fixed.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/14/2015 12:16:21 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 762

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 2:12:12 PM

UnfriendlyBG

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i didn't mean i was ranting about you man, i meant i was ranting about the guy not getting around to fixing the tech or even acknowledging the bug in 6 months. I don't have a single problem with you, but stuff like that is frustrating. When I said creator I meant the creator of distant worlds. Im a software developer myself, as I think a lot of us are, I wouldn't be allowed to just not address something quick like that at my job so I hold him to the same standard. It's not like this is some giant community full of posts and people. you reasonably presented an issue and didn't get a response after asking twice. That's what I rant about and you don't have to support it, it's my own opinion. I realize the game is made by 1 person, but if you cant fix up little bugs like stuff not doubling the growth of a planet in within 6 months or even acknowledge it, then its time to take on more employees or it's time to lower the price of the game as selling for $60 has a certain connotation with it whether people want to acknowledge that or not. You (icemania) are for free making the game better, but you are hamstrung by non working things within the game. I've said my piece on that now, and I don't expect anyone agree with me here, but that is my opinion. I am sorry for cluttering up your mod thread that was just a little comment I made on the side about a tangent I went on during my let's play when I found out that those techs don't work.

Anyways, I'm playing on hard difficulty with the agression bumped up one from default, but this mirrors something that actually made me stop playing a game quite a while ago. Let me see if I can dig up the post on the steam forums. Ah forget it actually I doubt there was a screenshot. But essentially the caleph get many many many times the military strength of other races because they build so many carriers/fighters/bombers. These don't acurruately reflect the actual military strength of the faction. My starbase might have 1000 firepower worth of fighters but it also dies just as easy as any other starbase when a fleet gets there. (defensive stationary numbers go into military strength btw I tested). So you're building carriers that have what 3 to 5 times the 'firepower' of a comparably sized ship? This leads to you having a HUGE lead in military firepower. However that isn't really true firepower. It might be true that that carrier has 3 to 5 x's the firepower of a comparable sized ship, but it's still just a ship and it dies like any other. In my opinion the actual representation of military strength should take into account more than just your firepower and the firepower of a carrier should not be significantly higher than that of a capital ship like it currently is. In turn this inflated firepower strength leads to the AI changing its diplomatic reactions to the caleph. They don't declare war, races that don't like them hand them money, etc. If this mod is to improve AI, I think you could improve the AI by removing the calephs because they make the AI react according to a military strength that is greatly exaggerated.

I noticed this first months ago, I made a post called 'Are there just games you can't win?' On the steam forum. And it was because there was a faction that had an OBSCENE amount of military power, like more than the entire rest of the galaxy combined and it was a large game. That might have been the last game of distant worlds I played up until recently. You know what race they were? The caleph. I connected the dots when I was astounded by the military power that I had in my current game. So in actuality in my game from months ago (that again didnt have your mod), the calephs were powerful but they were no where near as powerful as the military strength indicated. They aren't OP or anything, they are strong, but the game is overvaluing their firepower due to the fighters/bombers. Not just by a little, but by a LOT. Probably 4 times if not more.

I am not telling you to remove the race, but I am just letting you know that it is pretty FUBAR, in game. I'll see if I can load my game up and take some screens. Again I don't think any of this would be a problem if the other AI's (and an unknowing human) didn't react according to their obscenely overreported firepower. If I start need to the Boskarans (spelling?) you would think that would be a recipe for conflict right? The boskarans are the most evil race in the galaxy from what I was reading. Instead they never try to fight me and send me credits. The banoserits who were furious with me are sending me 10's of thousands of credits because they think I can wipe out the galaxy with 25 ships which just isnt true. Do you get what im saying? Any game the calephs are in assuming they don't get an absolutely god awful start, the AI will react inappropriately to them because they have a firepower that while technically accurate is vastly overreported and not quite the same in reality. For god sakes I had the devestator pulse technology from the beginning of my last game and I never took a firepower lead like that over the other AI's and thats a superweapon!

Anyways, I wasn't trying to sound confrontational I think we have some misunderstanding here, I'm just leaving feedback from my play.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 763

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 2:28:27 PM

UnfriendlyBG

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Joined: 1/3/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Something like this perhaps BG.

Apart from the structural changes, the research for each planet type is half the cost. I've reduced the storage research required by one tier. So colonisation of different planet types will be faster, but retain the same structure where preferred planet types are cheap, and non-preferred planet types are expensive.

Before you can research the advanced technologies for each specific planet type, you'll need advanced colonisation, the first tier for that planet type and advanced cargo storage. The cost of that research remains high to align with the benefits of double population growth once the bug is fixed.

right that's exactly what I was suggesting. it just streamlines the tree a little bit don't you think? makes the terraforming cleaner, and has the added benefit of putting a broken tech at the end of the tree instead of being a useless prerequisite aside from the terraforming. Plus i think it just makes sense logically, if volcanoes are my home planet, what do you think would be the resonable progression of colonization technology, being able to send more people to an ocean planet, or being able to THRIVE at an ocean planet. If you wanted to right now if you were a volcanic race you could research double growth on an ocean world before you had the ability to send 70million more people to another volcanic world. I think it just makes more sense with the picture you've provided. Assuming the stuff was balanced in the first place maybe some tweaking of the numbers needs to be done if possible, but since double growth doesnt even work you can't even test. I'm pretty sure double growth is more powerful than starting with 100million vs 30 million but I havent been in college for a decade Im not good at math anymore =P

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 764

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 2:41:39 PM

UnfriendlyBG

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actually I found my post but I can't post links. This illustrates what im talking about. The caleph are the strongest empire in this game, yes. But they aren't THAT strong militarily. Economy is what drives your military, the economy rankings should more or less run along the military strength lines. Now how much of this runaway power is because no one checked them because they thought they were unbeatable due to their phantom military strength? Who knows? But now they probably are unbeatable. Again these screens are from SEVEN months ago so its not your mod. this was a problem before. Now that i am the caleph myself I can see how the AI treats me differently. This *is* a problem. Whether you think it needs to be addressed is up to you, but it definitely is a problem existing with the game.

since i cant post links put imgur dot com in your address bar and put this after the url: /a/XQMeS

< Message edited by UnfriendlyBG -- 1/14/2015 4:23:47 PM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 765

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 6:52:22 PM

DarthFreddy

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Joined: 1/9/2015
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I would really like to try this mod, but I'm using Brone's Extended Universe compilation mod that adds some UI, graphics and sound mods to Extended Universe. Can I just paste the files from the AI mod into the mod folder I'm using,or will that break stuff?

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 766

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/14/2015 8:03:43 PM

UnfriendlyBG

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
Status: offline

im not the mod creator but... maybe try first installing the AI mod as linked in the first post. Then try unzipping/copying the files over from the mod that you want to splice in (the one youre asking about). If it tries to overwrite anything say no. That will keep the AI mod intact by preventing any overwriting of its files. I cant garuntee that it will work, but the mod creator would probably give you a similar answer as well

edit: you would probably have to make a judgement call on like the UI files as there is a UI mod included with this.

< Message edited by UnfriendlyBG -- 1/14/2015 9:04:45 PM >

(in reply to DarthFreddy)

Post #: 767

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 12:27:54 AM

UnfriendlyBG

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Joined: 1/3/2015
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just some quick math regarding the colonization while im waiting for my hair to dry before walking out in the 15 degree F weather to go to the liquor store lol.

The double growth rate is MUCH more powerful than the colonization tech that starts at 100m (if it worked =P).

I just plugged these numbers into a compound interest calculator after spending my whole shower trying to remember how to do it by hand (i think one of my theroies was right lol.

Lets use the human growth rate which is 18%. Let's also assume the interest (aka growth) is only calculated once per year (i believe if it is more than once per year the double growth gets even more powerful. Let's just take a look at how fast it would take to get to a billion people.

If you start at 30million @36% growth you have 30(1.36)^x = 1000

100 millon @ 18% you have 100(1.18)^x = 1000

and just for a baseline 30m with regular grown 30(1.18)^x = 1000

where x is the amount of years
I didnt try solving for x because I forgot how but lets find the nearest whole number for x that puts the population over 1000 million aka 1 billion

normal growth, 30m start gives you 22years to get to 1144.26 million

double growth, 30million start gives you just 12 years to get to 1201.12 million

and finally, 100million start regular growth gives you 14years to get to 1014.72 million

and for bonus if you have both 100m and double growth its only 8 years to get to 1170.34 million.

Considering double growth affects ALL planets of that type i'd say its considerately more powerful than starting with 100million, and having both is much more powerful than that.

Give that I'd say there's no way the 100m colonization tech should be behind the double growth techs in the tree (as current) as it is just straight up worse aside from it affecting every planet. I maybe wouldnt even increase the price for the double growth techs more than you have now by much as you do have to research one for each type of world. But for any specific world type it is reasearched for, you can see how strong it is.

Now just for fun. Whats a homework have at max, like 17billion people?

normal growth, 30m = 39 years

double growth 30m = 21 years

normal growth 100m = 32 years

double growth 100m = 17 years

double growth at 30m is 11 years faster to 17+ billion than 100m at standard growth

normal growth 100m is 7 years faster than 30m normal growth to 17billion.

And of course both techs together is 22(!) years faster than 30m normal growth.

So make what you will of all this information. I made it probably more convoluted than need be but hopefully the actual numbers might show you what would happen in game.

I'll just say that even if double growth is left to a prereq to the 100m colonization, I dont think 100m colonization should cost much more as it is just not *that* meaningful, and if it is last AND expensive like I said theres not really much to colonize if anything as it currently is in the mod by the time you get it even if beelined.

This is just my opinion and findings, I just want to offer my feedback on the mod and things that I feel could be improved upon (in the mod and the game). In no means do I mean it as an insult to your (or whoever did this part of the tree's) work. I think those things should go unsaid, I'm not out here to **** all over your mod which already objectively makes the game better, I just want to help in any way and give my feedback. Like I said I think those things should go unsaid but just from browsing the forums it seems like theres a decent amount of people around here that are pretty easily offended and I just want to make it clear im not trying to offend anyone. All past and future feedback left by me is just to offer up suggestions and or experiences that you can draw upon to improve your mod. I don't have the knowledge nor really the dedication to distant worlds to mod anything meaningful myself, but I can offer up my feedback and experiences to you.

For example you might think my feedback about the Caleph earlier is just nonsensical, and it might be. All I know is that theyre pretty much batting a thousand at effing up any larger scale games that I've had and this goes back to way before I tried your mod, and I've seen it as the now player and as the AI previously. I don't even know if they're a default race or an extended race, and I think their concept is actually really cool, I just don't think the game handles their inflated military power very well. You don't have to take them out of your mod, you don't have to listen to me at all, but I'm just here to give feedback on my games. The caleph could very well just be like Korea in civ v, where some players just prefer not to have them in the game at all on higher difficulty because the entire game boils down to 'I have to stop korea or they will win'. Thats not inherently a bad thing, but it's a thing.

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 768

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 9:14:39 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
I don't have a single problem with you, but stuff like that is frustrating. When I said creator I meant the creator of distant worlds. Im a software developer myself, as I think a lot of us are, I wouldn't be allowed to just not address something quick like that at my job so I hold him to the same standard. It's not like this is some giant community full of posts and people. you reasonably presented an issue and didn't get a response after asking twice. That's what I rant about and you don't have to support it, it's my own opinion. I realize the game is made by 1 person, but if you cant fix up little bugs like stuff not doubling the growth of a planet in within 6 months or even acknowledge it, then its time to take on more employees or it's time to lower the price of the game as selling for $60 has a certain connotation with it whether people want to acknowledge that or not. You (icemania) are for free making the game better, but you are hamstrung by non working things within the game. I've said my piece on that now, and I don't expect anyone agree with me here, but that is my opinion. I am sorry for cluttering up your mod thread that was just a little comment I made on the side about a tangent I went on during my let's play when I found out that those techs don't work.

I must admit there recent support has been lacking in recent times. And I agree if you are going to charge that price the support should be very good. However, I also witnessed the support after Universe release and the many changes I requested being included in the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Anyways, I'm playing on hard difficulty with the agression bumped up one from default, but this mirrors something that actually made me stop playing a game quite a while ago. Let me see if I can dig up the post on the steam forums. But essentially the caleph get many many many times the military strength of other races because they build so many carriers/fighters/bombers. These don't acurruately reflect the actual military strength of the faction. My starbase might have 1000 firepower worth of fighters but it also dies just as easy as any other starbase when a fleet gets there. (defensive stationary numbers go into military strength btw I tested). So you're building carriers that have what 3 to 5 times the 'firepower' of a comparably sized ship? This leads to you having a HUGE lead in military firepower. However that isn't really true firepower. It might be true that that carrier has 3 to 5 x's the firepower of a comparable sized ship, but it's still just a ship and it dies like any other. In my opinion the actual representation of military strength should take into account more than just your firepower and the firepower of a carrier should not be significantly higher than that of a capital ship like it currently is. In turn this inflated firepower strength leads to the AI changing its diplomatic reactions to the caleph. They don't declare war, races that don't like them hand them money, etc. If this mod is to improve AI, I think you could improve the AI by removing the calephs because they make the AI react according to a military strength that is greatly exaggerated.

I'll have a closer look at the Caleph and see if there is anything I can do. There is a trivial solution to still enjoy the game if this remains a problem, just setup without Fighter/Bomber focused races.

Hard difficulty is for noobs and frankly I don't how anybody remotely competent with the game could do anything but dominate. This isn't Endless Legend ... the bonuses on Endless difficulty are MASSIVELY higher than Extreme here. Extreme here is more comparable to Serious difficulty on Endless Legend. You also need to keep in mind what I've said in recent posts, Very Hard is the 1.04 minimum, because some changes to the AI cost more, and I don't have the modding options to optimise e.g. exploration ships.

I assume you are playing 1.04?

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 769

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 9:18:56 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarthFreddy
I would really like to try this mod, but I'm using Brone's Extended Universe compilation mod that adds some UI, graphics and sound mods to Extended Universe. Can I just paste the files from the AI mod into the mod folder I'm using,or will that break stuff?

BG had it right. The risk is yours. To help if you stay away from the design templates, race files, policy files, biases files, research.txt and component.txt ... it might work.

(in reply to DarthFreddy)

Post #: 770

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 9:40:47 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
So make what you will of all this information. I made it probably more convoluted than need be but hopefully the actual numbers might show you what would happen in game.

I agree. But the mod focus was not to fix that sort of issue ... it was to improve the AI. When I get time I'll think about applying it but the race order will need to change and be tested. Any interest in testing any changes I make?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
In no means do I mean it as an insult to your (or whoever did this part of the tree's) work.

Cool but I wasn't insulted. The issue is that I consider ranting at the developer inappropriate, I have no patience for this. You'd be better served just calmly stating your position.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/15/2015 12:29:44 PM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 771

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 1:18:39 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

As a result of the concerns raised on the Caleph I've run some test games with 1.04. Full Auto, 4X speed and all pop-ups suppressed, Normal difficulty so a level playing field, Restless Aggression, Very Cheap Research so the game moves as quickly as possible.

Game 1. 30 years in I've had war declared on my Caleph empire twice. I only have my homeworld left with an enemy fleet hovering over it after getting hammered in a recent war and so I'm pretty much last in the standings.

Game 2. Spawned next to the Boskarans. My Caleph empire AI decided to declare war on the Boskara, had an advantage for a while, then got wiped out again, game over.

What I noticed in both games was that Caleph firepower was strong early game but many other AI's caught up in time. Early good firepower is to be expected because their Special Technology is in Weapons. That is not unique to the Caleph or Fighter/Bomber races it's also the case with the Boskara or Wekkarus for example which have Special Weapons Technologies.

That said, the 2nd and 3rd tier of special weapons for the Caleph (Multi Dimension Maintenance and Advanced Natural Flight) are earlier in the tech tree compared to the other races with special weapons, which makes them cheaper and faster to get to than any other race. I don't think I've changed anything here, this is how it is in the Extended Mod. So I'm going to push them out a tier so that they match the others.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/15/2015 2:19:38 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 772

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 1:18:45 PM

UnfriendlyBG

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
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I'll gladly help test changes, and with anything else you would want!

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 773

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 1:20:09 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

Good. Just responded to you on Steam. Be nice is the anything else I want.

I'll have a download for you shortly.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/15/2015 2:20:39 PM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 774

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/15/2015 1:28:44 PM

UnfriendlyBG

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

As a result of the concerns raised on the Caleph I've run some test games with 1.04. Full Auto, 4X speed and all pop-ups suppressed, Normal difficulty so a level playing field, Restless Aggression, Very Cheap Research so the game moves as quickly as possible.

Game 1. 30 years in I've had war declared on my Caleph empire twice. I only have my homeworld left with an enemy fleet hovering over it after getting hammered in a recent war and so I'm pretty much last in the standings.

Game 2. Spawned next to the Boskarans. My Caleph empire AI decided to declare war on the Boskara, had an advantage for a while, then got wiped out again, game over.

What I noticed in both games was that Caleph firepower was strong early game but many other AI's caught up in time. Early good firepower is to be expected because their Special Technology is in Weapons. That is not unique to the Caleph or Fighter/Bomber races it's also the case with the Boskara or Wekkarus for example which have Special Weapons Technologies.

That said, the 2nd and 3rd tier of special weapons for the Caleph (Multi Dimension Maintenance and Advanced Natural Flight) are earlier in the tech tree compared to the other races with special weapons, which makes them cheaper and faster to get to than any other race. I don't think I've changed anything here, this is how it is in the Extended Mod. So I'm going to push them out a tier so that they match the others.

I was thinking that was the problem too actually. Like eventually the empires will catch up to you firepower wise, but you get that tech SO early, and its equivalent to another race going down the whole tech tree of fighters more or less. So that gives you a huge advantage mid game. Which isnt a bad thing! But what's bad is that the other empires react as though you got superweapons or something. I actually quite like where they are as far as research and such goes I think its unique that they have an advantage midgame, its just that the firepower number should be fudged to make them not seem so overwhelming powerful. You can't fix that, so moving out the research is probably a good idea.

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 775

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Beta) - 1/15/2015 2:05:33 PM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

You'll be excited to know the kids have gastro and are puking their guts out. That means the Mrs has gone to bed so she is ready for the morning shift, so I've had some time to change race research build orders for the new tech tree, which has both the changes in the colonisation tree and pushing out the Caleph weapons research. That said, I've been getting up and down on puking duty, so I'm sure I've stuffed something up somewhere.

If you want to play a game as the Caleph yourself, please bump it up from Hard to Extreme difficulty, avoids exploits like Technology Selling, keep the Shakturi on so you know my upgraded designs are waiting for you, and then let me know if you have fun!

Extended AI Improvement Mod 1.05 Beta

< Message edited by Icemania -- 2/8/2015 2:46:58 PM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 776

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Beta) - 1/15/2015 3:27:43 PM

UnfriendlyBG

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
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will do later today, im streaming some beyond earth at the moment. i always have tech trading off, i usually turn the shakturi off too to make it more of a traditional 4x game but ill definitely leave them on at your wishes. Is there anything in particular that you would like my to test? A certain race, universe type, size, number of empires, etc? Like I said ive put 150 hours in the game but thats still considered pretty nooby so some guidance would be appreciated. Im better at testing than I am at setting up a game of distant worlds =P

(in reply to Icemania)

Post #: 777

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Beta) - 1/15/2015 11:39:49 PM

UnfriendlyBG

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
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I just want to say this mod is really good

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 778

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Beta) - 1/16/2015 3:55:07 AM

Icemania

Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline

The settings are up to you BG, nothing specific is needed to test, I'd just like you to keep a close eye out on how colonisation research works and the Caleph with the changes made. Please also go into Game Editor from time to time, as you can see what the other races are doing in research, and check their colonisation research is working and not stuck etc. The Shakturi are great because even if you get to the top of the leaderboard, you could still loose, you'll need to be really strong to win ... and the battles are often epic.

As for Beyond Earth ... don't get me started!

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/16/2015 11:11:11 AM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)

Post #: 779

RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/17/2015 10:23:06 AM

Shogouki

Posts: 177
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline

Not sure if this is a bug or not, but I'm playing a game with your mod installed and something about the tech trading seems off. While doing some diplomatic technology procuring I noticed that technologies that I had just acquired by trading was not available to trade to other empires even though that empire did not posses the technology. I decided to see if it needed time so I unpaused it and let it run for more than a month but the techs that I received via trade were still not listed as being able to trade with other empires. I used espionage to ensure that the empires that I was attempting to trade the newly acquired tech to did not posses those techs. Any ideas?

(in reply to Lycaeon)

Post #: 780