Offensive Chit: How did I do?

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Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/16/2015 8:39:07 PM

vollman

Posts: 32
Joined: 12/13/2007
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First impulse of May/June and the Germans unleashed an offensive against the French!

Using Rundstedt, I doubled eight units, and launched three attacks:
1. A big single-hex blitz against Georges, who was by himself thanks to a successful attack at the end of the previous turn.
2. A two-hex blitz against the clear Belgian hex to his northeast.
3. A two-hex cross-river infantry assault into Antwerp, defended by a single ARM unit before naval support had a chance to sail out.

I've attached the before after picture.

The first two attacks were wildly successful, killing an HQ-I, an INF, an artillery, and sending another INF to the spiral. Everybody stayed face up, and one ARM blitzed forward adjacent to Paris. If only the Stukas had successfully hit the CW MOT to the east, which is now out of supply - it could have been easily overrun!

The attack on Antwerp was a failure, however, and the Germans flipped, and lost a MIL. They could event counter-attack the lone unit in Brussels, if they feel sufficiently bold (probably not!).

What do you think overall - not bad? Poised to knock out the French?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by vollman -- 1/16/2015 9:39:43 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/16/2015 10:15:08 PM

HansHafen

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline

I haven't played in a long time, but I never used offensive chits in France. I saved them for the East.

(in reply to vollman)

Post #: 2

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/16/2015 11:15:00 PM

christo

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: adelaide, australia
Status: offline

France MUST be conquered as quickly and cheaply as possible. If you get bogged down in France then you will lose the game. The French look like toast now. Looks like you will be able to get a bit of the BEF at the same time.
Was it worth it .........??
Only time will tell but make sure to rebuild the chit

(in reply to vollman)

Post #: 3

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/17/2015 9:42:50 AM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

I don't agree that an offensive shouldn't be used against the French, however, it depends on the timing of that offensive. If you are now in M/J 1940, you shouldn't use one against them. If you are in N/D 1939, it can be very good to use it, since you usually lack a lot of planes and manpower to kill the French without it. The sooner you kill the French, the better it is. Germany should use all fine (and even snow) weather impulses it gets to hammer the French...

I almost never build offensives with the Axis. They cost a lot of money and are a "one time" item. I rather have another Panzer Armee (ARM-ARM-MECH division) on the map as Germany, or more Luftwaffe on the map. You can't have enough FTR's and LND2 and LND3 on the map...

If I look at the cost of the units killed, you've done enough to get your moneys worth out of the offensive (especially because it was free). But France can still put up a good fight over Paris. If France moves the ARM and a good INF with a AT gun in there (don't know if that last one is possible) than they can still put up a decent fight over Paris...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to christo)

Post #: 4

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/17/2015 5:53:06 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I tend to always use one O-Chit in France, even in May-June.
Otherwise the odds are pretty low to achieve something meaningul.
French can start to withdraw now and operate decently still, eventually even severing that armoured spearhead which costs -alot-.
In this case they'll move away with many units, and try to reshape a line at Paris and behind the Seine, with Vichy and Lion as southern pivotal points.

I found France a very hard nut to crack, and usually where I use the O-Chit in attack requires also to have closeby units not meant to be attacked disrupted, or they simply move and mop up the panzers which advanced alone.

< Message edited by Cohen -- 1/17/2015 6:54:24 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 5

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/17/2015 7:40:25 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vollman

First impulse of May/June and the Germans unleashed an offensive against the French!

Using Rundstedt, I doubled eight units, and launched three attacks:
1. A big single-hex blitz against Georges, who was by himself thanks to a successful attack at the end of the previous turn.
2. A two-hex blitz against the clear Belgian hex to his northeast.
3. A two-hex cross-river infantry assault into Antwerp, defended by a single ARM unit before naval support had a chance to sail out.

I've attached the before after picture.

The first two attacks were wildly successful, killing an HQ-I, an INF, an artillery, and sending another INF to the spiral. Everybody stayed face up, and one ARM blitzed forward adjacent to Paris. If only the Stukas had successfully hit the CW MOT to the east, which is now out of supply - it could have been easily overrun!

The attack on Antwerp was a failure, however, and the Germans flipped, and lost a MIL. They could event counter-attack the lone unit in Brussels, if they feel sufficiently bold (probably not!).

What do you think overall - not bad? Poised to knock out the French?

The French aren't done yet.

I would use the Leo 451 to ground strike the 3 German units in hex with the 9-4, having the MS 406 fly as an escort. That is the only 'feeder' hex for the advance on Paris. Without those units, the Germans only have the 3 overextended units to work with.

If the Brits can ground strike the 4 German units in Brussels, they should do so. The idea is to give the German disorganized units in their front line so they can't maneuver freely and have fewer units with which to launch attacks.

Move the British HQ to the hex SW of Paris and take one of the units in Paris to move SE of Paris. Run the 4-5 French motorized from the Maginot line into the forest hex so the 6-5 British motorized is back in supply. Then have the 6-5 overrun the Bf-109 E-2 which is sitting all by itself. This will constrict the avenue for the German advance on Paris.

Move the 3-5 cavalry to where the 4-5 motorized was in the Maginot line.

Move the 5-3 in Metz to where the 6-5 British motorized was and the other unit in Metz one hex west. Move the second unit in the hex with the 3-5 cavalry one hex west to support the 5-3 infantry.

Move the 5-1 to Metz. Split the 2 units in the corner of the Maginot line to cover the hole the 5-1 created.

The other side of the Allied line should be okay but you have to get the 7-6 armor out of Antwerp (replace it with the 4-3 infantry). Depending on how well the ground strikes went, the line running from Paris to Antwerp should have 2 units each (just one in Antwerp). If you can keep one unit in Lille, that would be nice, but it depends on what forces the Germans can put into the front line for attacking.

It's also time to strip units from the Italian front - if any are available. The Brits appear to only have 2 units in France. Perhaps a land unit can be landed into Antwerp instead of the 4-3 French Infantry? Even if it ends up having to move into France sometime, the FTC restriction shouldn't be a constraint.

And if it isn't already obvious from the above: never attack with the French!

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to vollman)

Post #: 6

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/17/2015 10:47:04 PM

etsadler

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/27/2011
Status: offline

I generally try to avoid using an O-chit on France, but have from time to time, often if the weather has not cooperated and I am behind schedule.

As for the French being done in this scenario, They may be down, but they are not out.

We can't see all the units, but I'd move whatever is under the 4-1 gar West, the 5-3 and the 4-5 to the hex with the LeO, the 3-5 to where the 4-5 was. Then I would likely displace the Bf 109 E-2 with the other unit under the 3-5 and move the unit under the 5-3 to where the 3-5 is. I'd also pull the french units in Belgium back into France.

Why do all that? Because when there is an opportunity for the French to do so, I attack! I figure that France is toast anyway. But if I can kill that 7-5 Arm and possibly the 2 units with the 2-6, or with good air disruption, maybe even the 9-4 stack (unlikely, but if I could disrupt all three!?!), go for it!

For this reason I would never, ever, leave an Arm or Mech alone in a hex where the French would get 3 or 4 hexes on it, and probable not under any circumstances. Once France is sure to be conquered why not attack every German you can get 1-1 on and hope for the best?

Your mileage may vary.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 7

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/18/2015 12:50:19 AM

Courtenay

Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

And if it isn't already obvious from the above: never attack with the French!

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

Why do all that? Because when there is an opportunity for the French to do so, I attack!

Isn't it nice how we all agree what the best strategies are?

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 8

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/18/2015 1:26:21 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

I generally try to avoid using an O-chit on France, but have from time to time, often if the weather has not cooperated and I am behind schedule.

As for the French being done in this scenario, They may be down, but they are not out.

We can't see all the units, but I'd move whatever is under the 4-1 gar West, the 5-3 and the 4-5 to the hex with the LeO, the 3-5 to where the 4-5 was. Then I would likely displace the Bf 109 E-2 with the other unit under the 3-5 and move the unit under the 5-3 to where the 3-5 is. I'd also pull the french units in Belgium back into France.

Why do all that? Because when there is an opportunity for the French to do so, I attack! I figure that France is toast anyway. But if I can kill that 7-5 Arm and possibly the 2 units with the 2-6, or with good air disruption, maybe even the 9-4 stack (unlikely, but if I could disrupt all three!?!), go for it!

For this reason I would never, ever, leave an Arm or Mech alone in a hex where the French would get 3 or 4 hexes on it, and probable not under any circumstances. Once France is sure to be conquered why not attack every German you can get 1-1 on and hope for the best?

Your mileage may vary.

A bunch of those German units we can't see have to be air units. So while it looks like it is a lone 7 point armor (and 9 points of armor from the two units in the other hex) they could quite easily become double their printed strength when attacked. Even with 4 hexes, France would have to use a lot of units to attack 14 defensive factors at anything resembling decent odds. Taking 2 or 3 French units off the map and disorganizing the rest of the attackers would be sure to make the German player weep for joy.

The reason to not attack is to drag out each turn as long as possible. If you can get to the end of the turn without France having been conquered, it would be a major victory. An early end to France in a turn gives Germany extra impulses to start shifting units to other fronts (e.g., Russia). It always takes Germany many impulses to move its massive army and air force east - be it for taking out the Balkans or for an early attack on the USSR.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to etsadler)

Post #: 9

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/18/2015 9:33:26 AM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

I generally try to avoid using an O-chit on France, but have from time to time, often if the weather has not cooperated and I am behind schedule.

As for the French being done in this scenario, They may be down, but they are not out.

We can't see all the units, but I'd move whatever is under the 4-1 gar West, the 5-3 and the 4-5 to the hex with the LeO, the 3-5 to where the 4-5 was. Then I would likely displace the Bf 109 E-2 with the other unit under the 3-5 and move the unit under the 5-3 to where the 3-5 is. I'd also pull the french units in Belgium back into France.

Why do all that? Because when there is an opportunity for the French to do so, I attack! I figure that France is toast anyway. But if I can kill that 7-5 Arm and possibly the 2 units with the 2-6, or with good air disruption, maybe even the 9-4 stack (unlikely, but if I could disrupt all three!?!), go for it!

For this reason I would never, ever, leave an Arm or Mech alone in a hex where the French would get 3 or 4 hexes on it, and probable not under any circumstances. Once France is sure to be conquered why not attack every German you can get 1-1 on and hope for the best?

Your mileage may vary.

A bunch of those German units we can't see have to be air units. So while it looks like it is a lone 7 point armor (and 9 points of armor from the two units in the other hex) they could quite easily become double their printed strength when attacked. Even with 4 hexes, France would have to use a lot of units to attack 14 defensive factors at anything resembling decent odds. Taking 2 or 3 French units off the map and disorganizing the rest of the attackers would be sure to make the German player weep for joy.

The reason to not attack is to drag out each turn as long as possible. If you can get to the end of the turn without France having been conquered, it would be a major victory. An early end to France in a turn gives Germany extra impulses to start shifting units to other fronts (e.g., Russia). It always takes Germany many impulses to move its massive army and air force east - be it for taking out the Balkans or for an early attack on the USSR.

I agree. Only attack with the French if you get an automatic victory. Otherwise, stay alive and kicking. Now, if Germany has used up his airforce, things might be different. But even then: remember the golden rule: "If you can't have the worst result possible, don't attack". France needs to defend and a counterattack sometimes seems interesting, until you've calculated the odds. Usually you'll find that the worst result means the destruction of part of your attacking forces and that's something which France should prevent at all cost.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 10

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/18/2015 3:58:13 PM

etsadler

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/27/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

I generally try to avoid using an O-chit on France, but have from time to time, often if the weather has not cooperated and I am behind schedule.

As for the French being done in this scenario, They may be down, but they are not out.

We can't see all the units, but I'd move whatever is under the 4-1 gar West, the 5-3 and the 4-5 to the hex with the LeO, the 3-5 to where the 4-5 was. Then I would likely displace the Bf 109 E-2 with the other unit under the 3-5 and move the unit under the 5-3 to where the 3-5 is. I'd also pull the french units in Belgium back into France.

Why do all that? Because when there is an opportunity for the French to do so, I attack! I figure that France is toast anyway. But if I can kill that 7-5 Arm and possibly the 2 units with the 2-6, or with good air disruption, maybe even the 9-4 stack (unlikely, but if I could disrupt all three!?!), go for it!

For this reason I would never, ever, leave an Arm or Mech alone in a hex where the French would get 3 or 4 hexes on it, and probable not under any circumstances. Once France is sure to be conquered why not attack every German you can get 1-1 on and hope for the best?

Your mileage may vary.

A bunch of those German units we can't see have to be air units. So while it looks like it is a lone 7 point armor (and 9 points of armor from the two units in the other hex) they could quite easily become double their printed strength when attacked. Even with 4 hexes, France would have to use a lot of units to attack 14 defensive factors at anything resembling decent odds. Taking 2 or 3 French units off the map and disorganizing the rest of the attackers would be sure to make the German player weep for joy.

The reason to not attack is to drag out each turn as long as possible. If you can get to the end of the turn without France having been conquered, it would be a major victory. An early end to France in a turn gives Germany extra impulses to start shifting units to other fronts (e.g., Russia). It always takes Germany many impulses to move its massive army and air force east - be it for taking out the Balkans or for an early attack on the USSR.

In this example it is the first impulse of May/June. To me the fact that it is the first impulse is the key. If I don't attack does anyone really think that the Germans won't have Paris by the end of the turn? Or at least have a reasonable attack on it (which, sure, they could get a poor roll on)?

Regarding air, yes, that certainly make a big difference. I do read that, "If only the Stukas had successfully hit the CW MOT to the east..." which indicates a prior use of air this impulse. Could they have been re-org'd, sure, but maybe the player didn't want to flip his HQs so early in the turn. My point being it is an unknown as we discuss it here.

Of course what is going on elsewhere in Europe has an impact on decisions. I will say that I have very rarely seen Germany not have time to do what it wanted for the lack of a few impulses. A few turns, yes, impulses no. If, as France, I have the opportunity to cause Germany 12+ BP of losses vs. a couple of impulses till Paris falls, that is an easy choice for me. Which will set Germany back more, those couple of impulses, or having to rebuild those Panzer units?

Perhaps if I knew my German player will go for a complete conquest if the circumstances are in his favor I might not attack as readily. Maybe. But my bias is that the destruction of expensive and long to produce units will set Germany back much more than delaying the Fall of France by a couple of impulses.

One last point, for me, if I am attacking as France, I don't need "decent odds". 1-1 is good enough when my goal is only to cause enemy losses regardless of what happens to me.

Your Mileage May Vary!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 11

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/18/2015 5:30:56 PM

Zorachus99

Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
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Here is another example of an offensive in France. Here, the situation is the first Axis impulse of Jul/Aug '40. The Germans can tell that if they do not humble the French soon, Paris may survive until poor weather.

The British have started evacuating France, but have suffered the loss of the queens and a fast transport already, and so did some limited sealift to rescue units.

Without an offensive, these series of attacks would very well have caused many units to flip as well as potentially be unsuccessful. Using the offensive moderates any series of attacks with a huge amount of reorganization (8), basically allowing you to make many lower odds attacks. Many attacks is preferential method because the number of units removed from the map per impulse is *key* in the fight for France. As you see in the results, the french army has taken grave casualties, and I was able to isolate the British in Lille. The total value of the units killed and encircled from the move was well over 20bp. If I hadn't done this, I could have likely been banging on Paris in bad weather, and losing units from attrition. I've had games where I attacked Paris 4 times before taking it. Like Gibraltar, you need a decent roll.

While it ins't obvious that this was the final blow, but the french crumbled after this, and I took Paris before the end of the turn, which I doubt I could have otherwise.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 1/18/2015 6:31:15 PM >

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to etsadler)

Post #: 12

RE: Offensive Chit: How did I do? - 1/19/2015 1:06:39 AM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
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World in Flames is a game of time, not units. Whether 2 impulses in the summer of 1940 are worth more than 2 expensive units depends on what the Germans are doing after 1940. If they are aiming to take Gibraltar by conquering Spain, the 2 impulses are worth far, far more. If they are invading the USSR in 1941, the 2 impulses mean much less.

(in reply to Zorachus99)

Post #: 13