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CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 5:00:14 AM

Lord Drakken

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I am looking for some feedback about CW setup and Med defense on the first turn.

I have been predisposed to placing either a gun or the royal engineers in Malta to prevent Italy hopping in on a surprise impulse and taking the space with no fight. I place the infantry in Gibraltar. I also sometimes place a transport in Alexandria and take Wavell to France. I try to gauge the aggressiveness of the Germans and Italians as best possible before making this move.

What I am wondering is

1) When I played the board game the territorial that is selected in the anywhere column was a unit I often put into Malta. Even though the CW setup says anywhere MWIF makes you place the territorial into its home country. Is this correct or a bug? I have a hard time finding rules for setup.

2) What do other players do concerning Med defenses at setup? What units do you initially place in Gibraltar, Malta, and Egypt? Just trying to get some ideas and out of the box thinking from the experts.

Post #: 1

RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 5:27:02 AM

paulderynck

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1) It is correct. I believe that rule is in the Scenario book, which contains rules section 24.

2) An INF in Gib, Royal Engineers in Malta, Gun (hopefully an antitank gun) in Egypt, is what I usually do. The Italians can't DoW before the second axis impulse, so another plan is to take a Combined or Naval on the first Allied impulse and transport a unit or two into an empty Gib.

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Post #: 2

RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 5:53:22 AM

Orm

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quote:

1) It is correct. I believe that rul is in the Scenario book, which contains rules section 24.

It is indeed there.

24.1.6 Setting up
....
AfA option 10: Territorial units must be set up in their home country.
When randomly choosing a territorial to be placed on a map, you must
pick a territorial that can set up on that map (e.g. Australians on the
Pacifi c map). If you are playing with the Africa map (AfA/AsA option
1), �Europe� includes the African map.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 12:13:06 PM

Lord Drakken

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Thank you for the rules clarification. I think we played wrong 20 something years ago. My group assumed the anywhere meant set up anywhere not where you draw the unit from.

I looked all through the RAC and two player handbooks and completely forgot to look in the Scenario Booklet since I didn't have a hard copy outside of my attic.

Anyone else with their set ups please chime in. Obviously we are talking what to do with those units allowed to set up anywhere.

I love putting an AA gun in malta when I get the chance. It often can become the most bombed place on the planet in games I have seen.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 2:58:13 PM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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I generally do what Paulderynck does, except I put the ENG in Gibraltar and the INF in Malta. You do need 2 units in Gibraltar before the Italians have a chance to DoW. You don't really need two strong units unless they've got something more than a couple of divisions to throw at you. An ENG and a territorial can hold on just fine, at least at start, and you can reinforce if it looks like something heavier will show up.

Malta, on the other hand, can be blasted through, being more vulnerable to air power and on flat terrain. So I want something stronger. Sadly, he'd still be vulnerable to being knocked out of supply and flipped, and replacing the starting inf (who usually winds up in Egypt) with someone who has white print is a fairly urgent priority.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 9:52:40 PM

Dabrion

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Whatever you put in Malta, stays in Malta. You dont want to be in the position to do serious shuttling in the Med once IT is in the war.
I usually ship in the Can TERR (others should work fine if you cannot select at setup), which is about enough to disencourage cheap invasions and about as much as I am willing to pay for the location. That INF is put to better use in France, Morocco*, Egypt or even Singapore (* prefered choice).

Eng in Malta never appealed to me.. seems like a waste, when you can get them to Lille or Bilbao (or London in case of Sealion). Or just save them to retake one of these, to prevent your fire and forget landings to turn into an expensive POW camp..

< Message edited by Dabrion -- 1/18/2015 11:18:29 PM >

_____________________________

�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 10:03:45 PM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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You can ship stuff through the Med before France falls, if you're willing to commit your carriers to protecting stuff in a high box. The Italians don't have all that many planes, and no fighters that can get past the 2 box in the early game. I like to send a big carrier force down there anyway, wreak some havoc, and that means, likely as not, I can clear stuff out.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/18/2015 10:56:06 PM

Dabrion

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You already have the French to take care of the Med during '39/early '40, so keep CW naval force there to the tactical minimum! FR naval forces are fine to attrition an early IT. It makes more sense to prevent exploits to of the GE navy, until axis build plan gives rise to their opening strategy. I have lost some carriers in Malta and Gib to FROGs and IT amassed fleet in bad weather, to know that I want a 2BB 4CL/CL 1CVL force in GIB and nothing more. That is about the right amount to back up the FR fleet early on. Once long range FTR3 come it the playing field changes, as you can use the orange factors with the CVPs as backup in the [3]. Before that an IT fleet that drops to [2] after invasions with a "Falco I" cover has my respects.

My default setup for CW is:
"Home Fleet" (11 profile) [BB(5x, 4movers) CA/CL(6x, loss takers, screening)] in Plymouth,
"Force H" (11 profile) [Fleet Carriers(3x) BB(3x, _fast_ aka "Hood", "Renown", "Repulse"), CA/CL(5x, loss takers, screening)] in Scarpa Flow,
"Med" (7 profile) [BB(3x), CA(2x), CL(2x) in Gibraltar].

You certainly need the remainder on ASW duty, that leaves you with 2 BB to reinforce convoys and a (6mover-)cruiser force for the EMed/Indian theatre. Eagle makes its way to the UK to put some planes on, becoming "Med"'s patrol. Come summer '40 you will be knowing what you are in for and can/should reroute your convoy line to Central Atlantic. By that time you can either (build-)plan your '41 exploits and guard lines to Murmans OR think about the right mix to lose in Gib/Morocco.

p.s.: actually "protection" (if at all w/o screening) takes place in the boxes your lift ends up.. unlikely to be high boxes! Although high boxes are always nice to steal some surprise points..
p.p.s: the CRF in Scarpa makes sense to disencurage an early GE Norway. You have to back it up with at least 2x 6mover CA in Scarpa to keep up the presence in the Norwegian Sea.. (prolly more of an RAW8 thing).

< Message edited by Dabrion -- 1/19/2015 12:16:28 AM >

_____________________________

�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

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Post #: 8

RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 12:59:44 AM

brian brian

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The CW has an advantage in MWiF in that the Frogmen aren't coded yet, so their Carriers can safely base in Gibraltar. When Frogmen are in play, I keep them in Morocco until war with Italy gets started.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 1:14:31 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Well, I don't put them in a port that a frog can hit until after the surprise impulse is safely over. But I like to do more than just "contain" the Italians, I like to take the war to them, maybe even start attacking in Libya and/or invade Sardinia if I get a chance. Yeah, I've lost carriers, but I've also nailed Italian TRS, and drawn German planes away from France to deal with my marauding. In some ways, what I worry most about is a game where I start drifting the fleet south and Italy doesn't DoW on the first turn, but that's relatively rare.

And I guess I'm just not that scared of either the Kriegsmarine or the subs before France falls. Part of that has to do with options: I play with neither CLiF nor CoiF, and I play with ITPOE, so the striking range of the German fleet is relatively low until they can start basing things in places like Brest and Bordeaux. Without Milchcows, the Germans have a grand total of 1 submarine that can go 4 seazones, and it's slow and weak. Only having to cover the Faeroes, the North Atlantic, and the Bay of Biscay to any meaningful extent, while leaving the faster BB and some cruisers (rotate with the French 5 movers) to the 4 box of the North Sea often keeps the SCS bottled up, especially with their slower ships and most of the cruisers paying 2 for most seazones in, and then having to either stay out at sea for a turn where you can concentrate against them, or risk running back and having to fight through the zero box at the return to base. And you ought to have enough cruiser power to keep the sub damage to a minimum for the first few turns until you can start supplementing them with cheap navs. A cruiser or two and a swordfish is a pretty good sub-stopper.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 1:38:51 AM

brian brian

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Yes the Swordfish make short work of the SUBs once you put the Polish pilots in them and move one to Gibraltar and keep one in Liverpool.

The Royal Navy CVs are what defend Egypt quite effectively, and should be used aggressively. If the Axis are serious about Egypt, they need to build NAV early and often.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 8:14:22 AM

Dabrion

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, I don't put them in a port that a frog can hit until after the surprise impulse is safely over. But I like to do more than just "contain" the Italians, I like to take the war to them, maybe even start attacking in Libya and/or invade Sardinia if I get a chance. Yeah, I've lost carriers, but I've also nailed Italian TRS, and drawn German planes away from France to deal with my marauding. In some ways, what I worry most about is a game where I start drifting the fleet south and Italy doesn't DoW on the first turn, but that's relatively rare.

And I guess I'm just not that scared of either the Kriegsmarine or the subs before France falls. Part of that has to do with options: I play with neither CLiF nor CoiF, and I play with ITPOE, so the striking range of the German fleet is relatively low until they can start basing things in places like Brest and Bordeaux. Without Milchcows, the Germans have a grand total of 1 submarine that can go 4 seazones, and it's slow and weak. Only having to cover the Faeroes, the North Atlantic, and the Bay of Biscay to any meaningful extent, while leaving the faster BB and some cruisers (rotate with the French 5 movers) to the 4 box of the North Sea often keeps the SCS bottled up, especially with their slower ships and most of the cruisers paying 2 for most seazones in, and then having to either stay out at sea for a turn where you can concentrate against them, or risk running back and having to fight through the zero box at the return to base. And you ought to have enough cruiser power to keep the sub damage to a minimum for the first few turns until you can start supplementing them with cheap navs. A cruiser or two and a swordfish is a pretty good sub-stopper.

You can go with a Med. blockade sure, it can be effective I just would not setup as such if you are not willing to DoW IT preemptively. Not sure if that is part of your aggressive opening.
In any case, I would let your allies (aka French) eat the tip of the spear and come blazing in afterwards (that is very British, after all, isn't it?). Your fleet will not be stopping any auto-invasions or contribute shore bombardment during surprise impulse. Instead you will be exposed, likely facing the amassed Regia Marina 60odd surface factors, while they snipe your CVs/fast BBs.

Another likely course, IT decides you have to buy your own ticket to the party and declares on FR separately. Better in terms of USE, but potentially gifts the surprise attack in the Med. to the CW. We play an option where IT starts out with a trade agreement with the US (2/1 for 1), so its is a viable option for IT to sit there and build a PIL+X until FR falls.

_____________________________

�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 2:36:12 PM

composer99

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Lord Drakken (OP):

I also usually put the INF in Malta. That prevents invasion until the Italians cut supply and disorganise it.

Gibraltar can get the engineers and an early reinforcement. You can swap out the infantry division for the engineers (if you're not using the former for something aggressive, anyway).

If you're playing without any division-sized units, then the INF corps must go to Gibraltar.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/19/2015 3:41:55 PM >

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 5:10:08 PM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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I am willing to DoW if the Italians don't rise to the bait. They usually do however. One other thing I'm toying with, still working out the angles though, is to try to encourage them to attack me by moving convoys through the med to bait them. The Axis can't let too many turns of the French getting 3-5 resources from the CW with no corresponding loss of CW production.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 5:36:43 PM

Centuur

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It takes too many land units to make Malta "invade proof". So why put anything in there? Let the Italians take it. The CW still has major fleet bases at Gibraltar and Alexandria, far from Axis land based air. Malta isn't important at all IMHO. If you garrison it, you are destined to lose a unit for a long time (or it gets destroyed if the Italians decide to attack the Island).

I rather have more units available in Egypt. So I look at the draw of TERR and GAR and see if I can transport one into Malta during the first turn. If I can't, well, that gives Italy Malta for free in S/O 1939 and puts some higher US entry markers in the pools. The sooner the surprise impulse is gone, the better it is, IMHO...

With frogmen around, I wouldn't put a large fleet in Gibraltar (or Alexandri�) either. However, as soon as the surprise impulse is gone, one should try to go after the Italian fleet (especially the TRS) and be aggressive. Together with the French fleet, the Royal Navy should rule the waves, until the somewhat long range FTR's come in play at the Italian/German side to make live more dangerous.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/19/2015 10:53:55 PM

paulderynck

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Early in the game all Italy can invade with is Divs (since most people use Amph rules). But a one factor Div is not much better than a notional. With the Engineers there, they likely have to be ground struck before Malta can be invaded without too high a risk. Why put a 5 or 6 factor black print Inf Corps there which is also dead meat if successfully ground struck - and lose a unit that has a ZoC when it is likely more valuable in another theater? By the time the Axis is ready to go for Malta with sufficient force, much else in the Med will often have been decided.

Leave it ungarrisoned and it is too easy for Italy to take on a Surprise turn or if put OOS.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/19/2015 11:55:29 PM >

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/20/2015 12:59:51 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Honestly, for me, it's because I consider the inf less valuable than the Engineer. They cost the same to replace, but an ENG takes 5 turns, wheras the inf takes 2.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 1/20/2015 8:44:17 PM

brian brian

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INF in Gibraltar, Engineers + Gun in Malta, eventually reinforced by a TERRitorial and then an Elite / White-Print unit with the two division sized units withdrawn. This sometimes results in the Royal Engineers being on their way to Asia as it is easier to extract them in that direction, but that's OK.

Malta is the best Axis air base in the whole theater. Without it, they have quite a bit less flexibility in deploying their NAV + FTR-2 horde, and I would never give it to them easily.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/7/2015 6:23:07 AM

Jagdtiger14

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I put the gun by itself into Malta. Move HQ's into France and max the units there, defend Oran and get a unit into Morocco into the mtn rail asap. Get three units into Gibraltar asap.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/11/2015 1:31:00 PM

GKB

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quote:

It takes too many land units to make Malta "invade proof". So why put anything in there? Let the Italians take it.

Because it will take time and resources for the Axis to capture it. The CW (and Allies as a whole) are playing for time. Anything that will take the Axis time to do and divert resources means they aren't doing something else.

Is losing Malta a giant blow? No.

Making the Axis keep/send units to the Med that could be doing something else and tying them up for half a year before Malta falls? That is worth the price of whatever you use (and lose) to defend it.

If this is a prelude to conquering Egypt or going after Gibralter, you've given yourself more time to protect those more valuable locations while forcing a fight over Malta.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/11/2015 2:31:07 PM

composer99

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Malta's a major port on the Italian Coast sea area. It can hold all the ships and 3 air units (more with seaplanes, engineers, or HQs).

IMO that makes it a valuable asset to defend for the Allies. Makes life much simpler when they are on the offensive in the Med.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/11/2015 2:34:31 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Malta's a major port on the Italian Coast sea area. It can hold all the ships and 3 air units (more with seaplanes, engineers, or HQs).

IMO that makes it a valuable asset to defend for the Allies. Makes life much simpler when they are on the offensive in the Med.

warspite1

Aircraft re-basing is also easier with Malta in CW hands. I agree with those posters that said they would not give it up without a fight.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/11/2015 3:31:08 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Malta's a major port on the Italian Coast sea area. It can hold all the ships and 3 air units (more with seaplanes, engineers, or HQs).

IMO that makes it a valuable asset to defend for the Allies. Makes life much simpler when they are on the offensive in the Med.

warspite1

Aircraft re-basing is also easier with Malta in CW hands. I agree with those posters that said they would not give it up without a fight.

Let me put it this way. Only if I get a good draw of units which I can transport to Gibraltar or Egypt, I might be persuaded to put a unit in Malta to defend it at setup. Now, if the Italians are not going to go to war in 1939, I will put a unit in there. But it isn't on my "must put a unit in there at start" list.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/11/2015 4:08:55 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Malta's a major port on the Italian Coast sea area. It can hold all the ships and 3 air units (more with seaplanes, engineers, or HQs).

IMO that makes it a valuable asset to defend for the Allies. Makes life much simpler when they are on the offensive in the Med.

warspite1

Aircraft re-basing is also easier with Malta in CW hands. I agree with those posters that said they would not give it up without a fight.

Let me put it this way. Only if I get a good draw of units which I can transport to Gibraltar or Egypt, I might be persuaded to put a unit in Malta to defend it at setup. Now, if the Italians are not going to go to war in 1939, I will put a unit in there. But it isn't on my "must put a unit in there at start" list.

warspite1

And there again is yet another example of why this game is so damn brilliant and so replayable.

There is no right or wrong strategy, each player determines what works - but then what works is not necessarily the same from game to game thanks to the ingenious idea to make starting forces (and subsequent builds) open to chance. Simple but brilliant too.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/12/2015 8:03:59 PM

Jagdtiger14

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I'm on the side of putting "a unit" in Malta. I don't think you want to give it away that easily. However, one unit, and that being the ARTY should be the only set up unit...the other CW units are too valuable elsewhere...esp. France.

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RE: CW setup and Med defenses. - 3/13/2015 1:43:05 PM

alexvand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It takes too many land units to make Malta "invade proof". So why put anything in there? Let the Italians take it. The CW still has major fleet bases at Gibraltar and Alexandria, far from Axis land based air. Malta isn't important at all IMHO. If you garrison it, you are destined to lose a unit for a long time (or it gets destroyed if the Italians decide to attack the Island).

I've found that when trying to attack Italy late in the game it is much harder without Malta. At that point the Italians can put a decent defense in malta that makes it hard to take. (A white print GAR at least, sometimes more.) Trying to get into the Italian coast with only the minor ports is much harder. Doable, but much harder. If the CW can hang on to Malta it makes the invasion of Italy happen so much easier.

And as someone else said, the Allies are playing for time. Even if the one unit you put in Malta dies it costs the Axis at least one impulse and probably an entire turn of shifting units to pull it off, and they don't have that much invasion capacity anyway.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 26