Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question

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Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 1:44:35 PM

mikmykWS

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Hi All

Long story short is these platforms seem to have gotten VDS and TASS but what about hull sonar? We think we've nailed down the types although the VDS is still somewhat mysterious. The strange bit is no hull sonar is mentioned which is bizarre as most ASW combatants seem to have them (looking at French Tourville for example). So for now I've added a SJD-9.

Anybody have or find any specific information on this?

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 4:58:12 PM

Hongjian

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The sonar systems onboard Chinese warships in general are quite a mystery.

The Type 054A is quoted in the most english language and some chinese sources to actually have a MGK-335 Platina hull sonar (Just like the 052B/C as well), while other more obscure sources in Chinese say that it is a SJD-9.

I dont know either whether the size of the sonar-dome is any indicative of the type of sonar, but comparing the Luhu-classes, that were proven to have SJD-9/DUBV-23, with the domes of the 054A and 052B/C/D, it seems like latter are somewhat larger and more "bubble-shaped" than former. Anyway, SJD-9s wouldnt be wrong, even though they are older and should be less capable than the imported MGK-335 Platina series that came with the Chinese Sovremenny purchase in 1999 and early 2000s.

About the TASS and VDS, that right. The 054A++ and the new 056(A) "ASW-variant" both have TASS and VDS now. TASS, it should be still the SJD-206 (often compared with the AN/SQR-19), but VDS certainly is new now, and not the DE-1164/SJD-7 VDS. In 2013 the Ukrainians have revealed that they have sold the new Bronza-ME-Lugan VDS to China, which is described by them as a "fully digitalized and modernized" variant of the Bronza, with the following stats (google translate of official site):

Range scale - 4,8,16,32 km

Operating frequencies - 6.5-7.5 kHz

Admission bearing determination - to 20

Admission determine distances - up to 1%

Immersion depth towed antenna - up to 220 m

Another good source I would like to share but cant, because I cannot post links is called "PLAN Acoustic Decoy and Towed
Array Deployment Options" of Oct 2012 by Christopher Carlson, which is a good presentation of the new ASW upgrades of the new 054A++ and 052/B/C DDGs, also shared by the new 052D and the 056A (ASW-variant), which werent described in that presentation, as they still werent ready at that time.

As one could see from that presentation, the new Chinese surface combattants all have a fairly comprehensive ASW suite, including VDS combined with TASS and even towed acoustic torpedo decoys, latter of which would help their survivability against USN/JMSDF submarines immensely.

That's all I've gathered thus far. I will still dig deeper.

I hope other members could help as well.

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 5:02:11 PM

mikmykWS

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Thanks for your help with this. What I have is pretty close to what you suggested so think we might be ok. Left the vds entry as China SJD-X [Unknown VDS] with status close to the French and Italian/US sonars.

M

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 5:07:57 PM

Hongjian

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Also, before I forget.

The latest two Type 054A++(+) FFGs number CNS 576 "Daqing" and CNS 577 "Huanggang" both were upgraded with two Type-1130 CIWS replacing their predeccessor's Type-730 CIWS.
This new 30mm gun, formerly only installed on the CV16 Liaoning Carrier (and seen on the Wuhan Type 055 Cruiser/DDG mockup), are said to have 10.000 rounds per minute rate of fire (compared to the 4,200 rds/m of the Type 730) with two ammunition drums (vs one), have eleven barrels (hence the "1130" designation) and 90% interception rate against supersonic sea-skimmers up to Mach 4, and 97% against subsonic sea-skimmers, as revealed during the sea-trials and weapon-tests of the Liaoning.

It is surprising that a relatively 'small' and mass-produced ship like the Type 054A FFG gets this monster of a CIWS gun. As such, it is believable that all the later Chinese surface combattants to be built from now on will also sport the Type 1130 instead of its smaller Type 730 predecessor.

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 7:20:58 PM

Hongjian

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After digging a bit deeper, I've found that the DUBV-23 actually needs a darn huge dome:

Google for "Caract�ristiques du sonar d'�trave DUBV 23:" (without the "") and look at the photos.
This sonar-dome are larger than anything spotted on any Chinese surface combattant to date, even the Type 052 Luhu-class...

So, I think that the Chinese SJD-9 sonar system, suppossedly based on the DUBV-23, in fact never went into service, but a different and much smaller sonar was installed in all Chinese surface combattants.

If anyone can provide a picture of how the MGK-335 Platina looks like in terms of sonar-dome, we could maybe identify learn more...

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/19/2015 8:22:04 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 8:11:21 PM

Triode

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There is two version of MGK-335

MGK-335EM-03 (aka Big Platina)

Detection range submarine with Re = 10 m(aka project 877) 10-12 km
Energetic range 20 km
http://www.oceanpribor.ru/text/67.htm in russian

MGK-335EM-05 (aka Small Platina)
http://www.oceanpribor.ru/docs/mgk-335-em-05.pdf in russian
Range submarine detection in the absence of constraints due to refraction (aka in ideal conditions) 10-15 km

Сould you specify picture of which version you need?

< Message edited by Triode -- 1/19/2015 9:15:52 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 8:25:38 PM

Hongjian

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Wow, thanks for the quick response.

Let's try whether I can post links as well now...

[image]

[/image]

The 054A's hull sonar looks like this.

So, we might have our culprit.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/19/2015 9:27:14 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 8:29:06 PM

Hongjian

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Well, its a tiny bit bigger than the dome shown in your pic... But not as large as the DUBV-23, that's for sure!

Especially the official model shows it quite clearly.

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 9:29:58 PM

Triode

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well this is obviously not "Zarya M-03" (from project 22350)

most likely MGK-335-EM-03

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 9:38:17 PM

Hongjian

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Was the same kind of "Big-Platina" Sonar equipped on the 956ME Sovremenny as well?

Because that should be the only MGK-335 China ever has acquired...

The Chinese sonar might be a development based on the Russian original, though. So, performance data is still in question. But at least we might have identified its origin.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/19/2015 10:39:34 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 10:02:32 PM

Triode

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Was the same kind of "Big-Platina" Sonar equipped on the 956ME Sovremenny as well?

on 956ME installed MGK-335MS , old version of "Big-Platina"
"Small Platina" MGK-335EM-05 designed for Vietnamese Gepards (project 11661E)

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 10:09:20 PM

mikmykWS

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Thanks guys this was a huge help

Mike

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 10:16:33 PM

Triode

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ups it seems I was wrong

from Severnoe Design bureau site citation :
"The next export project developed by the Severnoe Design Bureau became pr. 956EM modernized destroyer...
As the main electronic weapons used: radar "Fregat-M2EM" KRK "Mineral-ME" NRS MR-212/201.
In the nose bulb fairing is located sonar system MGK-335 EM-03."
http://www.severnoe.com/news/publications/ship_build3/ in russian

So it is MGK-335EM-03 on pr956ME

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 10:28:26 PM

mikmykWS

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Ok added the Bullnose to the 56A+++ and the 056. Still not 100 percent but much better than where we were at.

M

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/19/2015 11:29:17 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/19/2015 10:48:15 PM

mikmykWS

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Updated. Thanks guys

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/20/2015 1:55:39 PM

mhemh

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The sonar systems of PLAN has a very high secret level,So there is little openning file about them.(Or very old file)
This is all I known.
VDS:H/SJD-7(equipped on 053H1K、053H2G、053H3 and F25T),ESS-1(DUBV-43,052 and 051G,original DUBV-43 equipped on 051B,and ESS-1 is most known),and new VDS maybe is ESS-2(but lack of info)
TASS:TLAS-1(Just for sale),H/SJG-206(TSAS-1,equipped on 052B、052C、054 and 054A),H/SJG-208(again,only has type name)
Dipping sonar:i wrote a post about dipping sonar,and find a new type H/SKD-95(someone said Z9-EC use this,but need more info)
Acoustic Decoy: BTA-1(equipped on 956E/956EM),a unknown type(i have picture but i cannot post link,)

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/20/2015 2:40:04 PM

Hongjian

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quote:

ESS-1(DUBV-43,052 and 051G,original DUBV-43 equipped on 051B,and ESS-1 is most known)

DUBV-43 on the 052?

Wasnt this a error in the Jane's report saying that the 052 was equipped with DUBV-43, as the actual photo never actually looked like the large french sonar, but actually rather a VDS that looks like the smaller DE-1164?

Refer to this:
https://clashofarms.com/files/PLAN_Towed_Array_and_Acoustic_Decoy.pdf

quote:

Acoustic Decoy: BTA-1(equipped on 956E/956EM),a unknown type(i have picture but i cannot post link,)

Very interesting! Never knew the 956E/M had acoustic decoys. This should be an interesting information, I guess.

Since you cannot post the link, could you at least write down any keyword (in chinese or whatever) so we can google/baidu it?

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/20/2015 3:47:03 PM

magi

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You guys are really impressive...... It's like we have our own little intelligence community� I never get tired of coming here�

< Message edited by magi -- 1/20/2015 4:48:49 PM >

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/20/2015 11:46:46 PM

mhemh

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quote:

DUBV-43 on the 052?

I am sorry there is some misunderstand because my form,I mean DUBV-43 equipped on 051B amd ESS-1 equipped on 052 and 051G.

quote:

Wasnt this a error in the Jane's report saying that the 052 was equipped with DUBV-43, as the actual photo never actually looked like the large french sonar, but actually rather a VDS that looks like the smaller DE-1164?

That is most interesting part,most openning files(even some offical magzines) said ESS-1 is based on DUBV-43,so WHICH part is based on DUBV-43?Maybe they copy DE-1164 towed body and handling system,use other system of DUBV-43.Or main tech of towed body is based on DUBV-43 but looks like DE-1164 towed body .COPY 2 CHINA sometimes is very interesting .

Acoustic Decoy Picture
i[]imgur[]com/85VG2p0[]jpg
Replace [] to .

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RE: Type 54A+++ and Type 056 ASW Hull Sonar question - 1/21/2015 12:34:30 AM

Hongjian

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Wow, thank you for the rare picture!

[image]i.imgur.com/85VG2p0.jpg[/image]

Looks like a quite a large system and correlating with the schematic drawing I've posted in that other thread.

quote:

hat is most interesting part,most openning files(even some offical magzines) said ESS-1 is based on DUBV-43,so WHICH part is based on DUBV-43?Maybe they copy DE-1164 towed body and handling system,use other system of DUBV-43.Or main tech of towed body is based on DUBV-43 but looks like DE-1164 towed body .COPY 2 CHINA sometimes is very interesting .

DUBV-43 is usually associated with the DUBV-23 hull sonar. But yeah, it could be indeed an improved copy, so to speak. We shouldnt forget that the DUBV-23/43 are actually quite old and have obsolete signal processing capability by today's standards, or even by the standards of the late 90s. China could have fused them with more solid state digital technologies, which is propable, since we've never seen the old monochrome screens inside the 052 Luhu or 051B Luhai classes, that are usually associated with these sonar systems. With more digitalizatzion, performance would likely be raised as well...

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