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AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/23/2015 2:14:31 AM   
bigred


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Can I upgrade to 44 AUS inf and keep the 42 motorized TO&E?




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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/23/2015 3:44:02 AM   
rms1pa

 

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No ARM/INF is by unit designation not TOE.

rms/pa

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/23/2015 6:17:29 AM   
Barb


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You do not have armored unit speed as this is reserved for unit type = "Armor" (I think it goes for Armor iconed units only).

What you do see is the "Jungle Division TOE" - Australians left most of their trucks behind as they are not that much useful jungle and relied on much lighter TOE - thus your units will eventually become "lighter" in shipping lift terms as well as heavy weapon support.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/23/2015 9:58:59 PM   
spence

 

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And the game does not actually provide any benefit for motorized support. As far as the game system is concerned horse drawn carts are every bit as effective as trucks allowing the IJA to advance their tanks to the far Western reaches of China with no loss of supply.

The only effect I can see of having motorized support is that Allied units take a lot longer to unload from transports because they have trucks.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/24/2015 1:58:10 PM   
rms1pa

 

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quote:

The only effect I can see of having motorized support is that Allied units take a lot longer to unload from transports because they have trucks.


and we have a winner.

rms/pa

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/24/2015 4:16:22 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa
and we have a winner.
rms/pa

Yes we do. That is the paradigm for MotSup, to make it harder to load a unit that was more dependent on motorized transport, and require more ships. This is, after all War in the Pacific.
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
And the game does not actually provide any benefit for motorized support. As far as the game system is concerned horse drawn carts are every bit as effective as trucks allowing the IJA to advance their tanks to the far Western reaches of China with no loss of supply.

The only effect I can see of having motorized support is that Allied units take a lot longer to unload from transports because they have trucks.

No benefit at all. In fact it is an intentional penalty; at least in terms of load costs in the context of War in the Pacific.

As to supply, you are correct, but Babes has tweaked the support % such that they might move like nominal, but once they get whacked, they are brittle. This forces the Chinese to oppose, if for no other reason than attrition (sound familiar?).

Game is an abstraction, but has room for tweaks and such, that make it play a teensy bit better.

Ciao. JWE


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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/26/2015 10:02:22 PM   
bigred


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IIRC motorized support provides 1.5 times the amount of regular support squad. So logic would seem a heavy mot division should be able to recover more quickly from combat. Plz correct me if I am wrong.

< Message edited by bigred -- 1/26/2015 11:03:11 PM >


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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/27/2015 7:16:07 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred
IIRC motorized support provides 1.5 times the amount of regular support squad. So logic would seem a heavy mot division should be able to recover more quickly from combat. Plz correct me if I am wrong.

Wrong. Correcting, now.

[ed] 300 Support is 300 support. 300 Motor Support is 300 support.

< Message edited by Symon -- 1/28/2015 4:53:10 PM >


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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 1/29/2015 4:13:10 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred
IIRC motorized support provides 1.5 times the amount of regular support squad. So logic would seem a heavy mot division should be able to recover more quickly from combat. Plz correct me if I am wrong.

Wrong. Correcting, now.

[ed] 300 Support is 300 support. 300 Motor Support is 300 support.

Roger, out.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/23/2015 8:59:00 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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This will be a stupid question, but do we have any control over TO&E at all? Let's say I have tons of Widget41 in the pool but no Widget42, and TO&E calls for Widget42. Can I elect to reinforce with Widget41 and still keep the '42 TO&E numbers?

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 1:41:10 AM   
rms1pa

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

This will be a stupid question, but do we have any control over TO&E at all? Let's say I have tons of Widget41 in the pool but no Widget42, and TO&E calls for Widget42. Can I elect to reinforce with Widget41 and still keep the '42 TO&E numbers?


not a stupid question, not much control over TOE but you can set a unit to not upgrade.

when widget '41 becomes obsolete. then the pool items should upgrade to next widget in use.

rms/pa

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 2:40:04 PM   
Alfred

 

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Only six months after they become obsolete do squads and engineers in the pools start to upgrade to the new model.  All other obsolete devices in the pool remain obsolete.

Only devices listed in the TOE receive replacements.  Superseded devices are eventually attrited to nothing.

Alfred

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 3:17:15 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa

quote:

The only effect I can see of having motorized support is that Allied units take a lot longer to unload from transports because they have trucks.


and we have a winner.

rms/pa


Isn't there another effect you are all overlooking....that of being able to use strategic road movement.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 4:12:16 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa

quote:

The only effect I can see of having motorized support is that Allied units take a lot longer to unload from transports because they have trucks.


and we have a winner.

rms/pa


Isn't there another effect you are all overlooking....that of being able to use strategic road movement.


No, in AE the ability to use strategic road movement is dependent on the nationality of the unit, not whether it has motorised support devices.

Alfred

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 6:03:38 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Only six months after they become obsolete do squads and engineers in the pools start to upgrade to the new model.  All other obsolete devices in the pool remain obsolete.

Only devices listed in the TOE receive replacements.  Superseded devices are eventually attrited to nothing.

Alfred



Thank you and rms.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Say, Widget41 is superseded by Widget42 in 6/42. The 100 Widget41s I have in the pool will automatically upgrade to Widget42s in 1/43?

Now, let's say I have a unit which I set not to upgrade which has Widget41s. Do those automatically upgrade to 42s in January as well?

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 8:07:11 PM   
tiemanjw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Only six months after they become obsolete do squads and engineers in the pools start to upgrade to the new model.  All other obsolete devices in the pool remain obsolete.

Only devices listed in the TOE receive replacements.  Superseded devices are eventually attrited to nothing.

Alfred



Thank you and rms.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Say, Widget41 is superseded by Widget42 in 6/42. The 100 Widget41s I have in the pool will automatically upgrade to Widget42s in 1/43?

Now, let's say I have a unit which I set not to upgrade which has Widget41s. Do those automatically upgrade to 42s in January as well?


no (sort of). There are 2 types of devices (for this purpose) - squad and not squad (such as vehicles, guns, etc).

For squads (such as USA Inf 41 / 42), what happens is:
old devices will [slowly] upgrade after 6 months (I think), and
when you upgrade a unit, the old squads go back into the pool as new.

For example, when to upgrade a US Inf Regiment of 91 USA 41 Squads to USA 42 Squads:
You need 91 USA 42 squads in your pool (for simplicity lets just say you have 91 USA 42 squads and 100 USA 41 squads in your pool)
The Regiment will now magically have 91 USA 42 Squads
The pool will still have 100 USA 41 Inf squads and 91 USA 42 Inf squads (the 41s lost from the regiment become 42s in the pool)


However, if you are upgrading vehicles it is entirely different
Vehicles never upgrade in your pool. A M3 tank is an M3 tank - it never becomes a M5.
You need 150% (I think... it may be 125%) of devices in the pool to upgrade a device in a unit
So if you have a tank unit with 60 M3s that you want to upgrade to M5s
You need 90 M5s in your pool (or 75 if it is 125%)
The tank unit will take 60 M5s and place its 60 M3s back in the pool. This means your pool would now have 30 M5s and 60 M3s.
You can NOT "downgrade" a unit. Once you go to the M5, you are not going back.

With the US units this isn't too bad, but you want to be very careful upgrading commonwealth units, especially British and Indian. For example you start with "Improv AFV (Hvy)", then get Vickers, Valentine III, General Lee, General Grant, Sherman V. Once you upgrade to, say, the General Lee, you can't go back to the Valentine III. And it gets more complicated. The Valentine III has better armor than the "Generals" (60 compared to 38), but a bit less punch - and the "generals" have identical stats - the General Grant is no better then the General Lee. But if you upgrade straight to Grant, your Lees and Valentines become locked in warehouses, never to be used again. So, in short, upgrade with care, and if possible, have some of all of these used in your units. You can use tricks like "stockpiling" to ensure specific units get what you want. By default, keep all your units on "no upgrade". When you are ready to upgrade set to stockpile newer devices you don't want to upgrade to (in my example stockpile your general lees and grants, and release your Valentine's). The unit will then upgrade (assuming all upgrade conditions are met) within a few days. Change it back to no upgrade and you can release your stockpiles again (to replace combat losses in other units that my have already upgraded).

Sorry, a bit wordy. Hope this helps.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 9:09:30 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Not at all. It makes perfect sense. Thank you!

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 9:23:38 PM   
bomccarthy


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quote:

But if you upgrade straight to Grant, your Lees and Valentines become locked in warehouses, never to be used again.


They don't become available in the pool to use as replacements for units still using Lees and Valentines (like aircraft)?

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/24/2015 9:31:46 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

quote:

But if you upgrade straight to Grant, your Lees and Valentines become locked in warehouses, never to be used again.


They don't become available in the pool to use as replacements for units still using Lees and Valentines (like aircraft)?


They'll be available in the pool, sure. But unlike aircraft, you can't retrograde LCU TO&E. Once you upgrade, theres no going back.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 2/25/2015 1:41:29 PM   
tiemanjw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

quote:

But if you upgrade straight to Grant, your Lees and Valentines become locked in warehouses, never to be used again.


They don't become available in the pool to use as replacements for units still using Lees and Valentines (like aircraft)?



Maybe a poor choice of words on my part - yes they reenter your pools, and can be used by other units still using the "old" equipment. But if you make the mistake I did and upgrade everything to the Lee, those few hundred Valentine's become useless.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/4/2015 5:20:18 AM   
bigred


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IIRC, A 42 squad will upgrade to a 43 squad if the unit is at full squad To&E and u have at least one 43 squad factor sitting in the squad device pool. This represents an equipment upgrade, not a change out of troops. All other conditions for upgrade must be present also. Probably need current beta to make this happen.


< Message edited by bigred -- 3/4/2015 6:25:41 AM >


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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/6/2015 4:59:49 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

IIRC, A 42 squad will upgrade to a 43 squad if the unit is at full squad To&E and u have at least one 43 squad factor sitting in the squad device pool. This represents an equipment upgrade, not a change out of troops. All other conditions for upgrade must be present also. Probably need current beta to make this happen.



This is interesting on two counts. 1) Are you sure? 2) Whats in beta?

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/7/2015 3:46:59 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

IIRC, A 42 squad will upgrade to a 43 squad if the unit is at full squad To&E and u have at least one 43 squad factor sitting in the squad device pool. This represents an equipment upgrade, not a change out of troops. All other conditions for upgrade must be present also. Probably need current beta to make this happen.



This is interesting on two counts. 1) Are you sure? 2) Whats in beta?

1. pm to Michaelm.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/7/2015 3:08:59 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

IIRC, A 42 squad will upgrade to a 43 squad if the unit is at full squad To&E and u have at least one 43 squad factor sitting in the squad device pool. This represents an equipment upgrade, not a change out of troops. All other conditions for upgrade must be present also. Probably need current beta to make this happen.



This is interesting on two counts. 1) Are you sure? 2) Whats in beta?

1. pm to Michaelm.


Hmm, not for the first time in this thread, incorrect info was posted. Urban myths in AE often arise when people post their addled thoughts as "facts". This problem would not arise if either the facts were first established before posting or better still, not posting at all.

Instead here we have a PM sent to michaelm. And just what exactly is that supposed to accomplish? Unnecessarily add to his clutter of work requests? Why should he even answer a PM, he is perfectly capable of reading the thread and posting if he thought it merited his attention. Besides answering a PM does not disseminate the info widely to the rest of the AE community. Nor should we forget that other devs exist. Why were they not PMd instead?

To know the "facts", read my posts in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604034&mpage=1&key=squad%2Cupgrade�

What is meant by "u have at least one 43 squad factor sitting in the squad device pool" is opaque and strongly suggestive that the upgrading procedure for aircraft has been substituted for that applicable to LCUs.

Those who do not use the beta exe need not fear that they are second class citizens who are unable to access basic game mechanisms.

Alfred

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/8/2015 2:20:42 PM   
bigred


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Thanks Alfred. Some parts of your response is appreciated an Michael confirms your data. One more question. IIRC These 43 indian and Brtish squads in the pool will auto upgrade to 44 squads over a six month period. Am I correct?




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< Message edited by bigred -- 3/8/2015 4:30:37 PM >


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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/8/2015 3:45:09 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Thanks Alfred. Some parts of your response is appreciated an Michael confirms your data. One more question. IIRC These 43 indian and Brtish squads in the pool will auto upgrade to 44 squads over a six month period. Am I correct?




No, not at all. They will do so very gradually - don't know the exact rate - and what Alfred wrote was that it begins six months after they stop production!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Only six months after they become obsolete do squads and engineers in the pools start to upgrade to the new model.  All other obsolete devices in the pool remain obsolete.

Only devices listed in the TOE receive replacements.  Superseded devices are eventually attrited to nothing.

Alfred




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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/9/2015 12:08:26 PM   
Itdepends

 

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Alfred your post is informative as usual, but why the angst?

Sending a pm to dev who is still active in game development is better than assuming that they are checking all of the new posts to clarify questions on game mechanics.

You imply that other devs could/should? have been pm’d instead. Is there a list of devs willing to entertain these queries? Or sub section of the forum dedicated to collating these queries and the replies provided by these devs that I am not aware of?

You feel that others would be better off not posting at all, even if they have checked their facts first. I assume you are one of these devs that qualifies you to ignore your own advice? If so I look forward to including you in pm’s on future clarifications to avoid loading up Michaelm with work requests.

Regarding the comments on the beta- the upgrade of obsolete devices was not in the original game so players are needed to upgrade to the official update to access this feature – so at some point this “basic game mechanism” was not available.

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RE: AUS 42/44 upgrade for inf - 3/9/2015 11:41:38 PM   
bigred


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Thanks for the comments, time to move on.

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