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Some quick questions - 1/24/2015 6:44:49 PM   
Rising-Sun


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From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Been over the manual looking up some important details and writing them down before playing again, remember reading this paragraph about resource output, but it didn't mention what was the base resource output. So I found a base that is 20 resources (not damage) and stockpile of 5,200. I ran a turn/day to see the result and it turned out 5,600 so that is 400 resources in one day from resource output of 20. So each resource outputs is multiply by 20 to get the actually output? As long it is not spoilage or overstock pile. I wasn't sure if this is correct? It was on a island, so there was no traffic or transporting through this base and no factory of any kind.

Another question, does anyone know how to train your naval crews? Believe I tried that on bombardment mission, didn't seem to gain nothing from it and look like only way to gain experience is through naval engagements as long they hit something.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 1/24/2015 7:55:29 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/24/2015 7:57:30 PM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		Yes, 1 resource center will produce 20 resource points per day. So, 10 RCs will produce 200 res points, 20 RCs will produce 400 res points etc.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 1:31:32 AM   
Jim D Burns


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Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		There is however an upper limit (not sure what the formula is) to how much a base can stockpile before it stops producing resources/oil. So make sure you keep convoys shuttling out the stockpile to keep production going.

Very low naval experienced crews will gain experience doing most anything, I once had a Dutch PG gain almost 25 points from taking a hit in a naval action and not scoring any in return. But as anything in Grigsby games there is a diminishing return especially after the magic 50 number is reached. Below 50 units preform like crud, above 50 they begin to shine.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/25/2015 2:35:09 AM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 9:22:03 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Thank guys, wondering if this is the same as for Oil Resources too, Refinery only take 10 oils for each. So I wasn't sure if that is multiply by 20, 10 or as it is.

The manual didn't mention what the base resources and multiply by 20, however it mention the number 20 on page 230. So my guess on oil output is multiply by 10 on the same page. So I wasn't sure if that number on oil output is fixed or multiply by 10.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 1/25/2015 10:29:48 AM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 11:27:06 AM   
Jakerson

 

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Status: offline 		What is difference between those various campaings normal campaing and those where Japanese start game better prepared?

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 11:42:57 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The campaigns where the Japanese get more stuff are intended to be played as the Allies against the AI. The AI is given more to work with so as to give a better game.

Bill

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 11:48:03 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Thank guys, wondering if this is the same as for Oil Resources too, Refinery only take 10 oils for each. So I wasn't sure if that is multiply by 20, 10 or as it is.

The manual didn't mention what the base resources and multiply by 20, however it mention the number 20 on page 230. So my guess on oil output is multiply by 10 on the same page. So I wasn't sure if that number on oil output is fixed or multiply by 10.



Here's an old thread with a decent chart, not sure what if anything has changed. DaBabes stuff is different for sure as I don't think oil refineries produce supply in DaBabes.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2178182

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/25/2015 12:50:20 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 12:04:19 PM   
Rising-Sun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Thank guys, wondering if this is the same as for Oil Resources too, Refinery only take 10 oils for each. So I wasn't sure if that is multiply by 20, 10 or as it is.

The manual didn't mention what the base resources and multiply by 20, however it mention the number 20 on page 230. So my guess on oil output is multiply by 10 on the same page. So I wasn't sure if that number on oil output is fixed or multiply by 10.



Here's an old thread with a decent chart, not sure what if anything has changed. DaBabes stuff is different for sure as I don't think oil refineries produce supply in DaBabes.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2178182

Jim


Thanks for the link, I seen it before and believe that where I got confused that is 20 resources would be multiply by the amount of resource outputs. And I do not know about Oil outputs though, my guess would be 10x of that amount.

After doing some math here, Honshu alone can produce 1,450,000 resources (not counting Shikoku because doesn't connect to mainland). Only need 235,000 resources for light/heavy industries, that is scenario #1 or grand campaign. Anyway don't you think that alittle too high for resource outputs for Honshu or Japan mainland? Hokkaido and Shikoku are not counted for. I can understand incase the player or AI may want to expand their factories, but there are tons of resources laying all over Dutch East Indies and Indo-China. Believe when you captured an enemy resource base, you still get that amount. But for light/heavy industries would be breaking down in percentage.

Anyway as in base resource for Honshu for 1x rate would be 7,150 that required 235,000 resources. Didn't think Japan itself can produce that much resources, esp rubbers that over in Dutch East Indies and Indo-China.


< Message edited by RisingSun -- 1/25/2015 1:33:29 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 12:13:54 PM   
Jim D Burns


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Status: offline 		Here's an old thread with some in depth discussions around Japan's economy. Not being a Japanese player (yet), I'm not up on the industries on the islands. I do recall many had similar assumptions you make but the thread quickly showed Japan needed to get resources flowing ASAP.

Of course I'm assuming this is the right thread, going off memory from years ago so forgive me if this is the wrong one. I'll read it to be sure and try and find it if not.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2186767

Check the chart in post #43, it shows a far lower resource production number for Honshu of just over 100k.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/25/2015 1:19:38 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 12:26:52 PM   
Rising-Sun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Here's an old thread with some in depth discussions around Japan's economy. Not being a Japanese player (yet), I'm not up on the industries on the islands. I do recall many had similar assumptions you make but the thread quickly showed Japan needed to get resources flowing ASAP.

Of course I'm assuming this is the right thread, going off memory from years ago so forgive me if this is the wrong one. I'll read it to be sure and try and find it if not.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2186767

Check the chart in post #43, it shows a far lower resource production number for Honshu of just over 100k.

Jim


Thanks again Jim, they may come in handy.

Anyway I will keep my eyes on the resources by checking those bases that needed those resources each day, if those resources are good then I don't need to ship any resources. Don't like moving resources around due to wasting fuels on the merchant ships. Of course Oils would be very important to stockpile.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 1/25/2015 2:48:17 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 3:12:13 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		As for Naval training, they just have to "see the elephant." With the American naval ships, you just have to put them into a fight or two and they will be fine after that. Give them a good but cautions leader who will break off when things get dicey. You are going to lose some ships but so be it-I have found no better way.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 3:16:12 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		Resources are not needed to be moved very far. All of Japan's resources can be exceeded with shipping from China, Manchuria, and the Northern islands. You do not need to ship resources from the DEI/Oz areas at all. Just collecting resources from close to Japan, I had saved up over 350K by the end of '44. Resources are NOT a constraint on Japan's production system. Neither is manpower.

Even oil is not a constraint surprisingly enough. It is fuel and supplies that are Japan's biggest issues. This is why repairing refineries in the DEI is important as it is far more efficient to move fuel than oil. The one point of supply you get in stock per 10 oil used to refine fuel is not going to matter. Compared what it will take to get that oil back to Japan considering the limited number of tankers Japan has. Plus the fuel expense involved and risk of attack for transporting it.

Unfortunately AE does not model resources in enough detail to model rubber, metals, etc., that Japan needed from the DEI in RL. So iron from around Japan is just as good as rubber from the DEI. I actually do run resource convoys from the DEI to Japan to role play this. Even though it is costly in terms of fuel and ships simply because Japan really had to do it. Plus I really have a hard time of seeing 100's of thousands or resources accumulating and just leave them there. Even if I do not really need them for the production model in the game.

If you want a detailed look at Japan's production model you can read my production primer if you have not already. Huh off the 1st page again

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 5:05:50 PM   
Rising-Sun


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Status: offline 		I do agreed that repairing them are expensive and fuels and supplies can be a problem later on. Or I can expand some small refinery in Japan to boost some fuels as long I keep pouring in those oils. There couple good places such as Port Arthur, what I like to do is clear the way on the rail systems through out China and from Indo-China all the way to Pusan transport to Fukuoka. But still I have to transport fuels all over the place and want to keep it limited as possible.

Btw I like the guide you made there, unfort I already knew most of those details. Except for resource outputs I was concern about. I am also forming up some air groups training for ASW both IJN and IJA, not sure what the number should be before assign to ASW 60+?

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 1/25/2015 6:14:06 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 8:36:25 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I had saved up over 350K by the end of '44.



With a daily requirement of 200k this seems like a critical shortage to me. If you meant to say 3.5 mil, then you still have only about 30 days demand or so saved up, not a huge reserve at all. I would think Japanese player would want to get as much resources to the home islands as they can in the early years to get a huge stockpile saved for the times when getting resources home will be near impossible.

I'm basing my comments on the numbers in this chart from back in 2009, I'm sure things have probably changed a bit but I assume not so much that 350k is plentiful.




Jim


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/25/2015 9:39:56 PM >

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/25/2015 10:30:21 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Thank guys, wondering if this is the same as for Oil Resources too, Refinery only take 10 oils for each. So I wasn't sure if that is multiply by 20, 10 or as it is.

The manual didn't mention what the base resources and multiply by 20, however it mention the number 20 on page 230. So my guess on oil output is multiply by 10 on the same page. So I wasn't sure if that number on oil output is fixed or multiply by 10.


Output of resource and oil centers, and required inputs and output off light and heavy industry, is all set for the scenario using the editor. That's why the manual doesn't give the numbers: they can be changed.

Standard settings though are as follows:

Resource Out: 20
Oil Out: 10
Heavy Industry Fuel In: 2
Heavy Industry Resource In: 2
Heavy Industry Supply Out: 2
Heavy Industry points Out: 2
Light Industry Resource In: 15
Light Industry Supply Out: 1
Refinery Oil In: 10
Refinery Supply Out: 1
Refinery Supply Fuel Out: 9
Manpower Out: 5

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 1:05:33 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I had saved up over 350K by the end of '44.



With a daily requirement of 200k this seems like a critical shortage to me. If you meant to say 3.5 mil, then you still have only about 30 days demand or so saved up, not a huge reserve at all. I would think Japanese player would want to get as much resources to the home islands as they can in the early years to get a huge stockpile saved for the times when getting resources home will be near impossible.

I'm basing my comments on the numbers in this chart from back in 2009, I'm sure things have probably changed a bit but I assume not so much that 350k is plentiful.




Jim



I missed the Millions and thought K Thanks for pointing that out.

No I had over 35 Million resources at the end of '44. And still had excess resources coming in just from around Japan.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 2:32:03 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Thank guys, wondering if this is the same as for Oil Resources too, Refinery only take 10 oils for each. So I wasn't sure if that is multiply by 20, 10 or as it is.

The manual didn't mention what the base resources and multiply by 20, however it mention the number 20 on page 230. So my guess on oil output is multiply by 10 on the same page. So I wasn't sure if that number on oil output is fixed or multiply by 10.


Output of resource and oil centers, and required inputs and output off light and heavy industry, is all set for the scenario using the editor. That's why the manual doesn't give the numbers: they can be changed.

Standard settings though are as follows:

Resource Out: 20
Oil Out: 10
Heavy Industry Fuel In: 2
Heavy Industry Resource In: 2
Heavy Industry Supply Out: 2
Heavy Industry points Out: 2
Light Industry Resource In: 15
Light Industry Supply Out: 1
Refinery Oil In: 10
Refinery Supply Out: 1
Refinery Supply Fuel Out: 9
Manpower Out: 5


I have highlighted what is just not true.

The exact numbers are given in the manual. And are easily understood. Just because the OP failed to comprehend the manual does not mean the information is not there.


  • s.13.2.1.1 - 20 resource points from resource center
  • s.13.2.1.2 - 10 oil points from oil center
  • s.13.2.1.3 - 5 manpower points from manpower center
  • s.13.2.2.1 - 1 Heavy Industry center needs input of 20 resource points + 2 fuel points to generate output of 2 heavy industry points + 2 supply points
  • s.13.2.2.2 - 1 Light Industry center needs input of 15 resource points to generate output of 1 supply point
  • s.13.2.2.3 - 1 Refinery Center needs input of 10 oil points to generate output of 9 fuel points + 1 supply point


Besides the manual, the information for the scenario in play is available ingame from the Industry ("J" short cut key) screen. Which is important because the manual can only give the data applicable to official game scenarios. It cannot provide details for player created mods.

The only thing which is not mentioned in the manual is that 100 days storage of oil locally is the upper limit. Any further oil production is not stored. There is no limit on local storage of fuel or supply points.

Alfred

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 7:57:22 AM   
Rising-Sun


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Status: offline 		Well I am not sure how much I can stockpile resources and oils in mainland, without going to spoilage. I don't think it will spoilage on resources/oils even if you have so much, correct me if I am wrong. The tricky parts is organize those ships for convoys, mostly the high speed PBs, AKs and TKs for long journey. For example I would have a convoy from Yokohama to Saipan, another from Saipan to Truk, etcs. I remember seeing resources on Nauru, West of Tarawa. Not sure if that is worth hauling in resources once I captured that base. Risk of subs and CV attacks. Remember I am playing on scenario #1 with the latest patch against AIs.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 9:20:49 AM   
Encircled


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Status: offline 		Its not normally, but if you've got supply and troop deliveries going to Kwaj or Truk, why not stop off at Nauru/Ocean to at least come back to the HI with a cargo hold full of resources?

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 10:25:16 AM   
Rising-Sun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Its not normally, but if you've got supply and troop deliveries going to Kwaj or Truk, why not stop off at Nauru/Ocean to at least come back to the HI with a cargo hold full of resources?


I remember one game I played few years back after capturing Nauru and trying to pull the troops out and got a small convoy collecting those resources, believe it or not, there was a allied cv group not far that trying to harass that convoys. All I can say is wait awhile before you do anything and do some serious search pattern to make sure there is no allied cv group nearby.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 11:15:25 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
No I had over 35 Million resources at the end of '44. And still had excess resources coming in just from around Japan.


35 mil divided by the usage number in the chart I linked of 212,700 is enough to run your industries for 164.55 days, or about 5.48 months. Definitely a nice stockpile, but not so much you'd make it into 1946 without having to shut off over half your home islands industries should the allies manage to shut off imports.

Additionally I’m not sure if air strikes can cause significant damage to resource/oil stockpiles or not, but if so then I’d say you are nowhere near a comfortable level of reserve resources just yet. You’ve got a healthy start for sure, but every ship you bring in from now on counts if you want to keep the home islands running at top levels into 1946.

Jim



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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 3:56:15 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		It did not matter as the game ended in '45 due to an Allied AV.

While not part of this topic, the Allies in the game can easily win without ever going anywhere near Japan's HI (except to sink ships ) So I am not sure why more Allied players do not do this since it is a lot easier than invading Japan.

As a further note, my TR TF's on the North side of Japan were pretty much left alone, except for subs of course, and it still did not matter as far as VPs go.

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 4:40:45 PM   
sanderz

 

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Status: offline 		quick question about auto victory - does it actually end the game or can you just carry on if you want to?

thanks

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/26/2015 7:32:22 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

quick question about auto victory - does it actually end the game or can you just carry on if you want to?

thanks



you can continue if you want to

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RE: Some quick questions - 1/29/2015 12:23:04 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I remember one game I played few years back after capturing Nauru and trying to pull the troops out and got a small convoy collecting those resources, believe it or not, there was a allied cv group not far that trying to harass that convoys. All I can say is wait awhile before you do anything and do some serious search pattern to make sure there is no allied cv group nearby.


A couple of subs in the neighborhood may discourage a human opponent.

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