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EF Box or no EF Box

 
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EF Box or no EF Box - 1/25/2015 4:36:36 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The subject came up on another thread, but I wonder if the EF Box isn't too much of an advantage for the German player. As Germany, I find I can pull whatever I need from that box, way beyond historical. I still have excess garrisons in France. The EF is pretty far above "Fluid", even in good weather. It doesnt' feel quite right.

With the EF Box off, the Germans do get a couple long-term benefits, right? I am thinking fewer turns in 1945, and also they will end up with more APs (because some units like 1ss that you would have to "Buy", now come for free).

Short-term, though, EF Box on really helps the Germans. You can pull several of the most elite Panzer units, plus a whole mountain army, and there is nary a complaint from OKH.

I wonder if either:

1. Players should agree to play EF Box off, or
2. There should be a VP as well as AP cost for pulling from the EF. It wouldn't be quite fair to charge VPs for units that you are going to get historically anyway, maybe there should be a threshold where VPs start.

Anyway, I wonder what others think, it just doesn't fee 100% correct

And to be fair, it probably isn't 100% historical for the Allies to empty England of all ground troops to send to the Med, but that's maybe a discussion for another day as well

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/25/2015 5:01:18 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
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Status: offline 		It adds opportunity to manage your forces as the German.

I always disliked the locked in nature of german reinforcement and withdrawals from WITE.

There is a VP mechanism for faster EF progress than historical, not 100 percent sure what it is.

Plus I think that the harsh penalties for garrisons not being met more than make up for any short term advantages the germans get.

Playing three games one with it off and two with it on, will see how it goes. One is going pretty well with it on because there is a 50/50 chance that in a fluid situation, the Russian front will get all of the replacements. So that can have the potential to make the germans very brittle on the west front. A couple turns of casualties, no replacements and the germans can crack. I could be wrong though will have to see how it plays out 8)

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"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
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The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/25/2015 6:27:14 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
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Status: offline 		The reason I empty out England is because I know how many units you can pull from that EF box. If the EF box is off, I'd probably not pull all those units out of England, but as it is, you can't stay ashore without them because of the ability to get more divisions out of the EF box. If you don't you get overwhelmed.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/25/2015 7:44:20 PM   
cmunson


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From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline 		I think the EF box provides a lot more strategic options for the German player. Remember German player loses 10 vp's per turn PER HEX for each hex west of historical Russian advance. It is true German player can "borrow" troops from EF during bad weather but steadily reducing EF box can lead to higher manpower and equipment losses and victory point penalties.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/25/2015 8:26:56 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Status: offline 		In the end I think it is important to playtest results and balance the EF box...

Looks like Zitadelle does not happen, no offensive in the summer of 1943. This helps the German cause in game terms...

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 9:12:10 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

In the end I think it is important to playtest results and balance the EF box...

Looks like Zitadelle does not happen, no offensive in the summer of 1943. This helps the German cause in game terms...


agree with the first, but my understanding is that Zitadelle started before the timeframe for WiTW and the battle was already lost. The invasion of Sicily simply forced the Germans to accept reality as they had to pull some mobile units from Russia to Italy?

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 9:17:41 AM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
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Status: offline 		I would say EF on for player how dont care that much historical accuracy but want to explore tactical options and EF off for player who want more just re-enact history (as much game engine allows).

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 11:36:14 AM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
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Status: offline 		The main problem with the EF box is that there is no real penalty for pulling all those divisions west. There should be more consequence to it than just losing admin. points. Also I hardly ever see the Russians press the axis, even in good summer weather, so it's easy to pull from the box and still maintain a stable front. I don't mind an a-historical outcome, but there should be some consequence to taking all those units off the east front and sending them west, and that doesn't seem to happen.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 12:32:12 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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Status: offline 		In my game on the server against meklore, I've pulled over 15 INF divisions easily and it's near the end of '44 where the russians are 6 hexes behind and the front is rated stable. Unless something major happens in '45 I don't see them making the historical time frame. It's easy to pull unfit units from the east which aren't going to hit your CV and refit them in germany, and send over some planes to balance the CV, since the LW is useless on the west. This was my strategy and it has worked.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 9:35:24 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Good feedback, and I am still feeling the EF Box is too easy to manage for Germany. I have pulled quite a few units, and just not a problem so far.

I would like to keep testing it out and hear more feedback, but my initial take is that it really favors the Germans

Playing without it though, maybe there needs to be a HR or something to keep the Allies from emptying England

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 10:25:56 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Status: offline 		What is the problem with emptying England? I haven't checked but I think all the units in UK are those available for overseas duty. Or do you mane RAF FC, in which case there are counters...

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 10:45:33 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The one big disadvantage is that you can often find all your manpower going to the Eastern Front. Without the EF box, you get 40% of the manpower, but with it you can often get almost 0. We have a change in testing now that reserves a minimum of 20% of the starting manpower during the logistics phase for the West front. Given how much manpower goes east as replacements, it may be necessary to periodically pull units off the Eastern Front. Of course, if you can pull too many units west and not suffer much than this could be an issue.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/26/2015 10:58:51 PM   
lukaszgwozdz2

 

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From: Seattle, WA, US
Status: offline 		There's another potential problem with the EF box that may be subtle for MP games. Basically as a German player I can lose to Russians while stopping the WA human cold by pulling enough units to match the allied strength. While still technically a victory for the WA player, it probably robs the player of the satisfaction if the victory came with a total lack of progress on the western front. I haven't done MP yet but will probably lean to non-EF box games for that reason. EF box strikes me as more useful for controlling Germany against an allied AI where it does enrich the strategic options available with no downsides.

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 3:23:30 AM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The one big disadvantage is that you can often find all your manpower going to the Eastern Front. Without the EF box, you get 40% of the manpower, but with it you can often get almost 0. We have a change in testing now that reserves a minimum of 20% of the starting manpower during the logistics phase for the West front. Given how much manpower goes east as replacements, it may be necessary to periodically pull units off the Eastern Front. Of course, if you can pull too many units west and not suffer much than this could be an issue.


Thanks Joel, that is a really good point, and you are right, EF Box does tend to rob the West for replacements. I do feel though it's too easy to rob the east for whole divisions though. Maybe a balance; after that change, maybe pulling from the East should be more costly somehow

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 4:19:44 AM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The one big disadvantage is that you can often find all your manpower going to the Eastern Front. Without the EF box, you get 40% of the manpower, but with it you can often get almost 0. We have a change in testing now that reserves a minimum of 20% of the starting manpower during the logistics phase for the West front. Given how much manpower goes east as replacements, it may be necessary to periodically pull units off the Eastern Front. Of course, if you can pull too many units west and not suffer much than this could be an issue.


before that 20% change....

as Western Marshall i noticed that by pulling a good number of units with low numbers out of russia and refitting(not front lines) them in west it really solves the drain on manpower to east while giving me more troops/replacements in west, big boom for garrison requirements, helps hq-ratio and maybe supplies/trucks in russia, moral boost when unit returns back to russia. gives me a leaner/stronger eastern force keeping Russia away a little more time wise than historical progress. having refitting units spread out in northern Europe comes in handy when new invasions happen. everything creating a overall historical feel .

if you war with EF box and let it sit, or bring only the biggest and best units from the east and use them for combat the results are different.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/27/2015 7:15:09 AM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 4:17:13 PM   
DicedT

 

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		As I said on the beta forum a while back, the EF Box will make or break WITW. Anytime you put 80 percent of a player's army beyond his control, and then give players the option to get their hands on them, most Germans are not going to be able to resist the temptation to loot the candy store. Even if taking the candy ends up hurting them, they'll still do it. Players dive into a game like WITW because they WANT to control lots of troops. not have them as rows of numbers on a spreadsheet.

How will this affect play balance? That's tough to answer. The Germans probably can't afford to move lots of divisions west. But there are a lot of flak and anti-tank units, heavy tank battalions and Luftwaffe fighter squadrons that can be sent westward. Transferring a dozen or more won't change the EF Box combat value that much, but they certainly can help. In one game I'm playing, I've transferred all of the heavy flak and fighter units. It's not decisive, but every little bit helps in the West.

DT

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 5:53:42 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
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From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Good point, the pure CV value of some SUs probably doesn't reflect their effect on combat in the game (or RL). A good example might be artillery of AT guns. Try stopping armoured divs without ATs (if you are infantry of course). But the CV on their own should be minimal. They are support units after all...I don't know how it is done, but there ought to be requirements on ratios of SU to main units, that hit CV more than their pure absence.

It will always be a problem without a full European game (and what a monster that would be!). However I like having to make the East/West balance - it really sums up the Axis experience. But there must be realistic effects. I wonder what systematic testing took place. I will have to see how fast the Sovs get to Berlin if you move units west as fast as possble. And likewise if you shift units east (of course you need to play LH/RH to get a repeatable test...

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 6:10:20 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		There is always the admin cost of moving units to be considered. Those points could be doing something else if not spent on moving units. Also, I think one of the early fixes made it important to maintain a decent fighter to bomber ratio on the east front or you take additional aircraft losses. Not saying it's perfectly balanced, and I have no doubt that playing with the EF on vs off can lead to very different games. My assumption is that the East Front over the course of the war is using up more than 60% of the manpower which means you have to move some units west to offset this. I think the German player would be happy getting the guaranteed 40% when not playing with the EF. But we will need to see more game results to really know. All we know now is that Pelton is beating everyone when he plays the Germans without the East Front.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 1/27/2015 7:10:46 PM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 6:13:40 PM   
Baelfiin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

........ All we know now is that Pelton is beating everyone when he plays the Germans without the East Front.

We will see about that =p

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 19
RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 6:47:02 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
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Status: offline 		Who's Pelton?

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/27/2015 6:56:40 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Please don't take Pelton's experience as a "normal" indicator of the game. He isn't unbeatable. Meklore and I should do an AAR sometime, we're of even skill :)

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 1/27/2015 7:57:38 PM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 2:22:47 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Well, the fix to this is simple, really. WIE = War in Europe.


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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 3:22:57 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
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Status: offline 		You mean this ?

http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 1/28/2015 4:23:27 AM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 4:30:29 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You mean this ?

http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100

The silence about that game is deafening, google cant even find a review...any good?

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 4:51:30 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Status: offline 		nvm.. Thought I had a review.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/28/2015 7:49:21 AM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 1:09:09 PM   
nedcorleone1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
The silence about that game is deafening, google cant even find a review...any good?


This might be useful. http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78399

Looks like there may be a demo of the game available (at least people have talked about trying it out). You could email DG about snagging a copy of that if one isn't posted on their wesbite.

< Message edited by mr_flappypants -- 1/28/2015 2:15:40 PM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 8:02:59 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
The silence about that game is deafening, google cant even find a review...any good?


This might be useful. http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78399

Looks like there may be a demo of the game available (at least people have talked about trying it out). You could email DG about snagging a copy of that if one isn't posted on their wesbite.



http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100

Click on the additional info/links

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 1/28/2015 9:04:36 PM >

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RE: EF Box or no EF Box - 1/28/2015 8:21:11 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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quote:


http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100

Click on the additional info/links

Thanks, but I'd seen that page, but no links to any reviews; kind of weird that there don't seem to be any reviews out there...

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 28
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