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Headquarters Units - 1/26/2015 12:32:54 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Discussions on the size, organization and employment of HQ units...



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Post #: 1
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/26/2015 12:49:45 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I kind of like the idea of having the arty for the division in the HQ unit for that formation. Depending on the scale of the scenario.

(in reply to r6kunz)
Post #: 2
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/26/2015 4:45:20 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		@Kunz,
Yes. Good idea.

@Larry

Heretic !! (Oh wait, I just openly disagreed with the Patron St of AARs I'm doomed !)

More seriously, I do not like mixing artillery into HQ units, as artillery burns through supply and readiness very very quickly, and that prevents the best use of the support, (possible) traffic control, transport sharing that the HQ is there for in the first place. (If the designer has to put a few pieces in an HQ unit, as there's no other place to go, then I do not grumble so much. But schmusching 3 dozen 105s plus 20 or more 155s into the HQ 4th Inf. Div. is a waste. Especially in games with scales 10 km or less.)

Not every formation should have an HQ unit.. sometimes formations are stronger without them. To me, HQ units provide
a) supply boost;
b)support to formation units ("HQ 4th Div supports the attack");
c)transport asset sharing;
d) traffic control;
e)limited command/control (a weak formation with an HQ unit with only 1 command squad and restrictions on replacement makes the whole formation more subject to breakdowns during the game);
and f)chrome (looks pretty, completes the OOB, retains the illusion of a command hierarchy even though we all know differently)

And, HQ units are part and parcel of the whole (internal/army/force/free support) question.

Of course, I'm usually playing WWII and 2.5 - 10km scale. Larger games, or modern or post-modern scenarios, I think, need a different approach to HQ units.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 3
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/26/2015 7:51:15 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		OK here is an idea I have, but have not used yet:

The number of support squads assigned to an HQ defines the supply rate of a formation.

- So I can use the equipment editor to create support squads that are formation specific. They 'd all function in the same way, but say 'AGS support squads' would only be in the TOE of HQs belonging to Army Group Center.

- Then I can have a separate replacement rate for the supply squads of different formations and regulate how much suppy they get!

-Here is my question. Suppose it is Spring '42 and I want to give the option to boost supply to AGC OR AGS. What I want to do is to have a TO that allows be to disband into the replacement pool a unit that has 'AGC support squads' OR another unit that has `AGS support squads'.
I am good with sequential events, but I have nto been able to figure out option1 OR option 2 events so that when option1 is choosen then option2 is disabled.

Help? Suggestions?

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 4
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/26/2015 8:39:50 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		@Governato,

I think the following will do what you want. To make a player choose either AGC or AGS, have the less preferred TO appear 1 turn earlier than the other. To make the earlier TO "disappear", repeat it with a TO event one turn later WITH THE EXACT SAME NEWS STRING. See evt 11 below. You may want to add delays to this to hide VP cost subtraction, or appearance of the disband, or allow the PO the 1 turn it needs to activate events.

Evt 1 Turn NN Theater Option 1 Extra Support AGC Activate Evt 2

Evt 2 Turn T999 News Only

Evt 3 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 2 News : DEBUG Cost of AGC TO

Evt 4 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 3 Effect -- Disband Unit

Evt 5 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 2 Effect -- Cancel Event (Affect Evt = Evt 6)

Evt 6 Turn NN+1 Theater Option 1 Extra Support AGS Activate Evt 7

Evt 7 Turn T999 News Only

Evt 8 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 7 News : DEBUG Cost of AGS TO

Evt 9 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 8 Effect -- Disband Unit

Evt 10 Ev Act Triggered by Evt 7 Effect -- Cancel Event (Affect Evt = Evt 1) Remove evt 10 as no longer needed with TO appearing on different turns.

Evt 11 Turn NN+1 Theater Option 1 Extra Support AGC Activate Evt 999

Evt 12 Turn NN+2 Theater Option 1 Extra Support AGS Activate 999 -- to "disappear 2nd TO" after 1 turn available
EDITED : to revise earlier version, edits in bold

****
Adding to Governato's point about the support sides. Remembering that engine will calculate an optimal number of support squads per formation size, adjusted by proficiency/inital readiness/initial supply pctge -- you can also manually reduce the assigned number of squads to hamper poor command formations, as well as reducing formation proficiency/supply -- or initially overboost extra comptetent formations initially. (I have not tried this, but I suspect using a III (regimental) symbol for a HQ and naming it as VIII Corps HQ, would also have TOAW calculate for a regiment not a Corps. And vice versa on size to boost competency.)


< Message edited by ogar -- 1/27/2015 2:45:27 AM >

(in reply to governato)
Post #: 5
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 1:16:52 AM   
Grognard


Posts: 216
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline 		A basic question with 2 stipulations:

1. There is no hierarchy in the game code, command or otherwise - so it follows that:

2. Unit counter size designators are strictly cosmetic.

If these are true (are they?) then do HQ units of any size ennable enhanced supply to other HQ units of any size?

I snuggle Divisional HQ's (with equipped artillery) to Corps HQ's because common sense dictates, but does it really matter?

quote:

but I suspect using a III (regimental) symbol for a HQ and naming it as VIII Corps HQ, would also have TOAW calculate for a regiment not a Corps


Does TOAW calculate based on the symbol or the equipment ?

< Message edited by Grognard -- 1/28/2015 2:20:03 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 2:15:20 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard

A basic question with 2 stipulations:

1. There is no hierarchy in the game code, command or otherwise - so it follows that:

2. Unit counter size designators are strictly cosmetic.


They impact rebuild times for all units. For HQ units they impact how many supply squads are necessary for a given Formation supply level.

(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 7
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 4:35:19 AM   
Grognard


Posts: 216
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline 		Thanks Bob - didn't know about the rebuild times and forgot about the prorated support squads.

But does the game recognize HQ "superiority" to other (lower) HQ's ? Both of your examples can be explained by the game simply linking the unit size symbol to those two functions and doesn't infer respective levels.

Does the game know that an Army HQ > Corps HQ > Division HQ > Regt HQ > Bn HQ > Co HQ ?

My question about how a HQ's supply can be enhanced by another HQ still stands.
Does one of the HQ's have to be superior to the other ? I would hope so but I'm not sure this is the case. If it is so, then as an example, the highest HQ on the map would not be able to recieve the HQ supply bonus.

My head hurts trying to articulate this - but the truth here will definitely affect my gameplay

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Post #: 8
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 1:49:12 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard

Thanks Bob - didn't know about the rebuild times and forgot about the prorated support squads.

But does the game recognize HQ "superiority" to other (lower) HQ's ? Both of your examples can be explained by the game simply linking the unit size symbol to those two functions and doesn't infer respective levels.

Does the game know that an Army HQ > Corps HQ > Division HQ > Regt HQ > Bn HQ > Co HQ ?

My question about how a HQ's supply can be enhanced by another HQ still stands.
Does one of the HQ's have to be superior to the other ? I would hope so but I'm not sure this is the case. If it is so, then as an example, the highest HQ on the map would not be able to recieve the HQ supply bonus.

My head hurts trying to articulate this - but the truth here will definitely affect my gameplay


I feel pretty sure that the only consideration for the bonus is full cooperation. But, someone once asked whether HQs receive the bonus from themselves - just by being HQs. No one knows, and won't know till someone tests it. If you really want to know the answer, run a test.

(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 9
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 7:15:09 PM   
Grognard


Posts: 216
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

someone once asked whether HQs receive the bonus from themselves - just by being HQs. No one knows, and won't know till someone tests it. If you really want to know the answer, run a test.


Bingo - great minds think alike and since I don't think there is an answer out there (anybody else ?) I've been thinking on how to run a test for the last couple of days.

This seems to me to be a seminal rules/game subject..... 17 years on .....

Testing will probably take a few days

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Post #: 10
RE: Headquarters Units - 1/28/2015 8:04:50 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
But, someone once asked whether HQs receive the bonus from themselves - just by being HQs. No one knows, and won't know till someone tests it.

I've given some thought to how you could test this and I'm wondering if the boost from being an HQ unit could be simply the
difference in supply rate between an ordinary unit and a single HQ unit. So just deploy a single non-HQ unit on the map and in the
same kind of terrain put an HQ unit and give both units the same supply percentage and then monitor their supply level as the turns
pass. Wouldn't that give you a hint?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 11
RE: Headquarters Units - 2/3/2015 8:00:05 PM   
Grognard


Posts: 216
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

So just deploy a single non-HQ unit on the map and in the
same kind of terrain put an HQ unit and give both units the same supply percentage


Wilco - but....

My main question is HQ's supplying other HQ's and whether HQ level - Army, Corps, Div Etc. matters at all. I suspect it doesn't and the HQ size symbol/designator is simply cosmetic. RL in currently FUBAR so testing will probably take until Sunday. Stay warm, my friends.

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Post #: 12
RE: Headquarters Units - 2/3/2015 9:48:46 PM   
Falcon1


Posts: 171
Joined: 4/30/2012
From: United States
Status: offline 		From everything I have read, I don't think it matters what level of HQ a unit is. All that matters is if it is cooperative or not.

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