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Spanking of the Sheep! - Allied Surrender on T53

 
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Spanking of the Sheep! - Allied Surrender on T53 - 1/28/2015 9:14:13 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		No Pelton in here please!

Against my better judgement I decided to try and play the mighty Pelton. This can only end in one way but it will be a very good learning experience for me no doubt.

If I can avoid an Axis major victory I will be quite pleased with myself. In order to make that I need to minimize mistakes and avoid playing a game that suits Pelton. That means no risky/exposed/ambitious landings. A slow and steady advance under a heavy allied air umbrella where the air force and not the army do most of the work.

To achieve that I have organized the air force a little bit different then I usually do.

8th AF - Heavy bombers and long range fighters. U-boats initially. Then MAN/OIL/FUEL.

Bomber Command will contain only heavy bombers and recon. With the exception of the first turn Bomber Command will try again at a night campaign hitting MAN/OIL/FUEL.

9th USAAF Well get ALL the medium bombers from Bomber Command and 2nd RAF. I will use these to hit Railyards and Ports in France and the Benelux. No USAAF fighters here though. Fighter Command and 2nd RAF provides fighters initially. This will limit the range of the 9th USAAF initially until more USAAF fighters arrive.

2nd RAF Typhoons and Mosquitoes only. This will be the "anti Pelton force". I have seen what the Typhoons can do to armored units in Normandie. They will do nothing but train until D-day. I need to save the air frames.

Strategic Air ALL the Stirlings transfer here. This will add a big punch to the suppression of Italy.

Tactical Air 225 P47s transfer from Europe here. These guys will break the Luftwaffe starting T2.

On the ground it will be another standard opening. We will land with everything we have on Sicily. Doing something fancy is not going to work. I need the airbases on Sicily to make the jump to mainland Italy. Cancelled the paradrops this time though...

Strategic and Tactical will hit the air fields on Sicily HARD while Malta Air Command and Costal Command will provide as much Naval patrol as possible.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 3/1/2015 7:13:16 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 9:30:57 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 1. 3rd-9th June 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------
Both the 8th and Bomber Command takes heavy losses. Over 100 bombers lost each. The 8th is intercepted over the North Sea but almost 200 German Fighters. Interesting!

Danzig is hit hard with 89% damage to the U-boat factories.

Bomber Command is it hard when trying to sneak into Northern Germany. They do some reasonable damage to the U-boat factory in Kiel? Can´t remember the location and being a server game I can´t open the save and check...need to start taking notes.

------------------------
Mediterranean
------------------------
We hit the airbases on Sicily with a massive hammer. Well over 300 planes are destroyed on the ground. Over 200 Fighters are destroyed while parked on the runways. This "should" limit Peltons response a bit. But some air bases are left untouched due to lack of bombers.

Overall I´m pretty happy with the turn. Over 400 German planes destroyed for 500 Allied. Sadly only 143 German pilots killed as most planes are destroyed on the ground.






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(in reply to JocMeister)
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 11:35:39 AM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Should be interesting watching the bombing campaign, what are you going to use to escort 8th air force?


_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 12:15:54 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Going completely by memory I think I have 3 FGs that will all fly P38s. So one more turn to convert before they are operational. Then I will add a fourth FG that arrives in a couple of turns giving me 300 P38s for escort. Should take some pressure off the bombers at least.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 4
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 1:39:51 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
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Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 1. 3rd-9th June 1943 Axis Turn
______________________________________________________________________________

Turn already back from Pelton. Basically he sacrificed a lot of the Italian air force. I guess they are pretty useless anyway.

I got hit with a -36 from "other losses". Not sure what those come from? (Havn´t read the manual yet )






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(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 5
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 1:52:36 PM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		other than recon, the skys around the strait of messina look to have been tranquil for 2 weeks.
will Pelton stand in sicily or retreat.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 6
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 2:42:56 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		Transports being sunk on the way to Sicily is my bet. I'd raise those naval interdiction numbers if you can.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 7
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 2:51:43 PM   
JocMeister

 

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

Transports being sunk on the way to Sicily is my bet. I'd raise those naval interdiction numbers if you can.


Only 4-5 Troop and 9 Cargo ships sunk. Far less then I usually suffer in my AI games.

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 8
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/28/2015 6:09:26 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 2. 10rd-16th June 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------
I stupidly forgot to take screens again. Not used to not being able to access saves after the turn is done. What I usually do is finish the turn and after that go back to the saves and write the AAR...

A lot lighter losses this time around. Some P38s fly with the 8th all the way to Willhelmshaven and Bremershaven knocking out the U-boat factories there. We shoot down some 30 German fighters for only 22 own losses.

Bomber Command hit the Ruhr at night. We destroy 4 points of MAN. Flying night seems like a complete waste of time.

------------------------
Mediterranean
------------------------
Pelton pulls back a bit into the center of Sicily. I see a lot of units around Messina. Sadly I needed to rest most of Tactical and Strategic AF so I had to settle for some recon missions, cover the landings and closing the remaining AFs. Some Italian planes are destroyed on the ground.

Looks like Pelton will use up the Italian AF before they surrender. He has pulled them back around Puglia. He is probably assembling a Luftwaffe sledgehammer around Rome.

Sorry for the lack of screens. Will try and remeber next time. Overall I think I lost some 150 planes for 60 Germans. Very light losses for the 8th AF. Good news.


(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 9
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 12:18:42 AM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		That neg vp's from other is the at start penalty for the disabled? pools


_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 10
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 1:50:25 AM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Very interested in this AAR. Utilize your air force as you stated to stunt his panzers which will be his response to any invasion. I think you can fight to a draw.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 11
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 4:15:36 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

That neg vp's from other is the at start penalty for the disabled? pools



Ah, that would explain it. Seem to remember suffering it in my other games too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Very interested in this AAR. Utilize your air force as you stated to stunt his panzers which will be his response to any invasion. I think you can fight to a draw.


Thank you. Very much doubt I will be able to achieve a draw though. Lack the experience and knowledge of the ground war.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 12
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 8:14:48 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 3. 17th-22nd June 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------
Remembered screens this time...

The 8th AFs do a good job over over Kiel knocking out 20 U-boat factories there. Pelton has a lot of fighters covering the area. My P38s take a beating and their low pools worry me. Might actually be better off flying unescorted as the B17 have more robust pools. Had to drop from 3 strikes/week to 2 to lessen losses.

Bomber Command displays another appalling performance. Despite full recon and dropping their altitude not a single hit is scored. This mimics my experience from my AI game. Night missions are complete waste of time. They were set to MAN attack using incendiaries.

I will switch them to daylight attacks instead. Loosing 40 planes for nothing is just....

------------------------
Mediterranean
------------------------
We hit the ports and railways on Sicily with medium losses. No sign of the Luftwaffe.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 13
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 8:24:41 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 3. 17th-22nd June 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Ground
------------------------
We advance inland trying to cut Sicily in half. Pelton is using only the Italians just slowing me down as much as possible. I´m advancing slowly and safely. Don´t want to expose any units for a counter attack.

------------------------
Losses
------------------------
Heavy Allied losses on the sea despite virtually no Axis interdiction. This aspect of the game continues to enrage me and is turning into an endless pit of frustration . Considering the very hefty WA VP penalties for losing troops this needs to be addressed ASAP. Its a lazy design and it isn´t working. At least adjust the levels so it makes sense. Right now it takes no effort at all to sink a lot of ships. And its impossible to prevent.

Here is a screen of the situation on Sicily before my movement. Forgot to take one after...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 1/29/2015 9:40:50 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 14
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 8:55:21 AM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		You are flying pretty high up with bomber command you might have better hit results if you come in lower, try 14k and see if it works for you.

I completely disagree with your statement about lazy design however

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 15
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 9:15:57 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
You are flying pretty high up with bomber command you might have better hit results if you come in lower, try 14k and see if it works for you.


Pretty worried about flak going down that low? Had some horrible experiences in my AI game when I did that. Don´t remember how low down I tried though...might have been under 10k. But I lost more then I would have in a normal daylight raid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
I completely disagree with your statement about lazy design however


Lets agree to disagree!

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 16
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 9:40:29 AM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Under 10 to 12k is bad for slow bombers. My understanding is light flak can have a field day with big slow target.
Night bombing runs will keep your losses down vs nightfighters, but you get really low damage results.

BTW did you have any recon over the bomber command targets?


_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 17
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 1:33:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Under 10 to 12k is bad for slow bombers. My understanding is light flak can have a field day with big slow target.
Night bombing runs will keep your losses down vs nightfighters, but you get really low damage results.

BTW did you have any recon over the bomber command targets?



Yepp, recon is up.

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 18
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 2:31:31 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Having not played this game I'll ask the most inane questions. How do you know how your settings are working or not working? Is it simply chance, and whether yours have intersected with your opponent in a positive or negative way for you, or can you end up reading his positions and intentions better through extended recon in particular ways?

In other words, where do you control what happens in the air war and how much is just chance?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 19
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 4:14:12 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Having not played this game I'll ask the most inane questions. How do you know how your settings are working or not working? Is it simply chance, and whether yours have intersected with your opponent in a positive or negative way for you, or can you end up reading his positions and intentions better through extended recon in particular ways?

In other words, where do you control what happens in the air war and how much is just chance?


Well, comparing to AE you have even more control over the air war. But due to the 1 week turns much will be left to the AI. I find this especially frustrating when you suffer heavy losses.

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.

Recon works pretty much as it does in AE but with a lot more FOW. Its pretty hard to pinpoint units and get a good ID. I like that. But here again I don´t like the lack of control due to the week long turns. Since the air phase week is executed with all missions being planned at the same time you will to an extent act blindly.

I can guess my opponent may be using certain airfields and order a recon package on Monday and then followed up by strikes for the rest of the week. If the AF turns out to be empty they will bomb an empty AF...quite annoying. But it goes both ways and can get still get decent results using priorities.

All in all I think they have made a very good job with the air war. Its A LOT better then AE in pretty much every aspect. Except naval interception... That portion is pretty much an insult to the rest of the game. That will change once they get the naval module in place no doubt so I guess they just threw something in there in the meantime.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 20
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 4:24:09 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 4. 23rd-29th June 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------
A very good day. With big concentrations of German fighters in the North we act on impulse and throw both Bomber Command the 8th at the Ruhr for a daylight attack.

The 9th start hitting Port and Railyards in France. I avoid enemy flak and airbases as much as possible and losses are very light.

------------------------
Mediterranean
------------------------
Strategic AF shift targets from Sicily and hit two AFs on the boot being used by the RA. Enemy losses are horrendous and almost 500 planes are destroyed for about 200 Allied planes.





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(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 21
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 4:31:30 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
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Status: offline 		______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 4. 23rd-29th July 1943
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Ground
------------------------
Still a lot to learn here. Thought the rest of the armor could catch up with the lead elements rushing for Messina...didn´t check movement points properly and now I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.

Trying to clear Sicily as fast as possible to gain control of the AFs. Messed up my prepping for the next invasion and will now be delayed for at least 4 weeks. Stupid.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 1/29/2015 6:09:58 PM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 22
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 4:36:36 PM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		July

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 23
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 5:09:18 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

July


Ooops!


< Message edited by JocMeister -- 1/29/2015 6:09:47 PM >

(in reply to KWG)
Post #: 24
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 7:13:36 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
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quote:

I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.


Probably not.
You're sitting in rough terrain and he likely only has the Schmalz PzG Bde in Messina with a routed and non-routed Italian sidekicks.
The ZOC movement costs to cut you off and attack would likely preclude getting back into Messina.
I bet he sits tight and waits for you to force him out.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 1/29/2015 8:14:11 PM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 25
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 7:36:17 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.


Probably not.
You're sitting in rough terrain and he likely only has the Schmalz PzG Bde in Messina with a routed and non-routed Italian sidekicks.
The ZOC movement costs to cut you off and attack would likely preclude getting back into Messina.
I bet he sits tight and waits for you to force him out.


I'd go with this, he can't create a situation for a rout, pushing you back will cost him fatigue, so I'd suspect he'll sit tight.

More broadly think you are right to emphasis the mindset of caution and only moving when your air power can really support your ground operations. What is not clear is whether such a methodical approach may end up grinding the Germans down so you can cut loose or if its too conservative a strategy? But given the disasters in a few other AARs of taking chances and over-extending, think you have made the right choice.

_____________________________


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 26
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 9:05:15 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

More broadly think you are right to emphasis the mindset of caution and only moving when your air power can really support your ground operations. What is not clear is whether such a methodical approach may end up grinding the Germans down so you can cut loose or if its too conservative a strategy? But given the disasters in a few other AARs of taking chances and over-extending, think you have made the right choice.


The lessons should be clear by now. Step out from under the umbrella of the WA AF and you will get burned.


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 27
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/29/2015 11:02:58 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Having not played this game I'll ask the most inane questions. How do you know how your settings are working or not working? Is it simply chance, and whether yours have intersected with your opponent in a positive or negative way for you, or can you end up reading his positions and intentions better through extended recon in particular ways?

In other words, where do you control what happens in the air war and how much is just chance?


Well, comparing to AE you have even more control over the air war. But due to the 1 week turns much will be left to the AI. I find this especially frustrating when you suffer heavy losses.

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.

Recon works pretty much as it does in AE but with a lot more FOW. Its pretty hard to pinpoint units and get a good ID. I like that. But here again I don´t like the lack of control due to the week long turns. Since the air phase week is executed with all missions being planned at the same time you will to an extent act blindly.

I can guess my opponent may be using certain airfields and order a recon package on Monday and then followed up by strikes for the rest of the week. If the AF turns out to be empty they will bomb an empty AF...quite annoying. But it goes both ways and can get still get decent results using priorities.

All in all I think they have made a very good job with the air war. Its A LOT better then AE in pretty much every aspect. Except naval interception... That portion is pretty much an insult to the rest of the game. That will change once they get the naval module in place no doubt so I guess they just threw something in there in the meantime.


Week long turns might make me crazy!

Can you just set the strikes for one day, not three? Seems for big Rhur valley industry that is well guarded this might be good policy, just in case. Also it means he still has to guard it, but you can then set a bunch of other missions at higher frequency elsewhere.

Do you notice larger bomber concentrations having more combined protection, or is there a threshold where it doesn't really matter?

Do you feel you have enough recon assets to really get a view of at least the main area you're concentrating on?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 28
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/30/2015 4:21:24 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.


One way to setup reaction to such events is to set minimum AC requirement for the AD, so it would cancel next days strikes in case of heavy losses.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 29
RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(... - 1/30/2015 4:27:05 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Do you notice larger bomber concentrations having more combined protection, or is there a threshold where it doesn't really matter?


Larger raid size provides more protection in code, but detection and interception of larger streams is also easier.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 30
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