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Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 12:52:26 AM

crsutton

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Viberpol and I are in disagreement over an important issue. See the image below. There are two large armies in the indicated hex NE of Patna. The hex was isolated and is Japanese controlled, all hex sides are red for two turns. I move a regiment from the Westernmost hex into the hex, shock attack and gut the regiment. However the hex side is now fully green to me with troops on either side. Yet, no supply at all flows into the hex. I am also unable to move a unit directly into the hex from the West as the AI tells me I cannot reach the destination. This is after moving the regiment in and shock attacking. The hex side is mine though. Just no supply or movement. As you can see it is a river hex but there is a major road. I own all the hexes to the west including well supplied Benares and have taken Patna too. All other units in the area are in full supply 20k supply in Patna and perhaps 40 in Benares. Yet no supply flows into the hex to my now non isolated units for two turns. Not a little supply but no supply.

My questions are.
Do river hexsides affect supply flow?
Do river hexsides with a major road affect supply flow?
Under the circumstances and considering up to three turns have passed, should supply have moved into the hex?
Given the road net and the abundance of supply should they be fully supplied?
As long as there is a clear path into the hex does control of the hex-not hexside affect the flow of supply at all?
Given that no supply flows in and I cannot direct a unit to move over the now fully green hex side into the hex, is this a bug?

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 1:11:18 AM

witpqs

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quote:

Given that... I cannot direct a unit to move over the now fully green hex side into the hex, is this a bug?

Sounds like a bug. Should give a before and after save to Michael.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 5:30:22 AM

obvert

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Might be a bug, but try reducing allocated supply amounts in bases nearby. Also, I've had weird movement issues trying to go to occupied hexes sometimes, and if I keep going back and fiddling with where I click in the hex eventually it allows movement there. Odd, but again, it has always worked if I keep trying.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 7:56:05 AM

Alfred

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Don't have time now to go into details but will in about 12 hours. Treat this only as interim. Definitely far to early to say a bug revealed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Viberpol and I are in disagreement over an important issue. See the image below. There are two large armies in the indicated hex NE of Patna. The hex was isolated and is Japanese controlled, all hex sides are red for two turns. I move a regiment from the Westernmost hex into the hex, shock attack and gut the regiment. However the hex side is now fully green to me with troops on either side. Yet, no supply at all flows into the hex. I am also unable to move a unit directly into the hex from the West as the AI tells me I cannot reach the destination. This is after moving the regiment in and shock attacking. The hex side is mine though. Just no supply or movement. As you can see it is a river hex but there is a major road. I own all the hexes to the west including well supplied Benares and have taken Patna too. All other units in the area are in full supply 20k supply in Patna and perhaps 40 in Benares. Yet no supply flows into the hex to my now non isolated units for two turns. Not a little supply but no supply.

No way enough info to support any proposition. That you have 20k or 40k supply in a base is not that relevant whereas the number of times base required supply figure would be highly relevant.

My questions are.
Do river hexsides affect supply flow?

No more than other types of hexsides.

Do river hexsides with a major road affect supply flow?

The quality of the transport infrastructure affects how often supply moves from A to B.

Under the circumstances and considering up to three turns have passed, should supply have moved into the hex?

Depends on the transport infrastructure. A poor one can see supply move only one day per week. The best will can have up to 4 deliveries per week. I'll crunch the numbers later.

Given the road net and the abundance of supply should they be fully supplied?

May be. Some supply may have been delivered and it was already consumed before you could see it.

As long as there is a clear path into the hex does control of the hex-not hexside affect the flow of supply at all?

Control of hex not relevant. Internal hex terrain and transport infrastructure has impact on how many deliveries per week are made.

Given that no supply flows in and I cannot direct a unit to move over the now fully green hex side into the hex, is this a bug?

Known common problem of not getting movement order accepted if clicking on crossed swords. Need to click elsewhere within hex. Technically has been a "bug" from when the crossed swords symbol was introduced in a very early patch. Very much doubt it will ever be squashed.

Have to leave as am late for an event. In the interim you can look at my logistics 101 or one of the threads where I comment on supply.

BTW, what is the disagreement over?

Alfred

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 8:14:18 AM

Yakface

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Viberpol and I are in disagreement over an important issue. See the image below. There are two large armies in the indicated hex NE of Patna. The hex was isolated and is Japanese controlled, all hex sides are red for two turns. I move a regiment from the Westernmost hex into the hex, shock attack and gut the regiment. However the hex side is now fully green to me with troops on either side. Yet, no supply at all flows into the hex. I am also unable to move a unit directly into the hex from the West as the AI tells me I cannot reach the destination. This is after moving the regiment in and shock attacking. The hex side is mine though. Just no supply or movement. As you can see it is a river hex but there is a major road. I own all the hexes to the west including well supplied Benares and have taken Patna too. All other units in the area are in full supply 20k supply in Patna and perhaps 40 in Benares. Yet no supply flows into the hex to my now non isolated units for two turns. Not a little supply but no supply.

My questions are.
Do river hexsides affect supply flow?
Do river hexsides with a major road affect supply flow?
Under the circumstances and considering up to three turns have passed, should supply have moved into the hex?
Given the road net and the abundance of supply should they be fully supplied?
As long as there is a clear path into the hex does control of the hex-not hexside affect the flow of supply at all?
Given that no supply flows in and I cannot direct a unit to move over the now fully green hex side into the hex, is this a bug?

In answer to your questions
Rivers should not affect supply
River with major roads should not affect supply (at least when co pared to just a road)
If you have a well supplied base at Benares then units should pull each day. This bit is from memory, but IIRC according to the manual, if the supply chain value is greater than 85 (and here it is at least 88 to Benares - can't see railroads well enough so it may be better) units are resupplied every day.
Yes should be fully supplied IMO
It is my understanding that control of a single hexside (with control of the others being with your opponent) should allow supplies to flow into the hex
For me, the chief suspect would be bug. The only other possibility that occurs is that it could be an unpublished feature that means that unless you get at least acceptable results from the single unit river crossing then no in hex link up is achieved? I think the existence of such a feature is very very unlikely.

< Message edited by Yakface -- 1/30/2015 9:21:45 AM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 9:06:52 AM

viberpol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
BTW, what is the disagreement over?

This argument is over poor (from the Allied POV) movement rates out of the contested hex (up to 4 days) that left three Allied division behind. The Japanese attacked twice on the 2nd & 4th day and eventually forced a retreat of the undersupplied units with moderate casualties for the Allies. Ross says these units were marching in "reserve" mode and should have left the hex earlier.

In my opinion you can't call it a bug.
These (once) numbers in supply map suggest that not all hexes are equal in receiving supplies every day. At least IMHO the same portions of supplies are not received every day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Depends on the transport infrastructure. A poor one can see supply move only one day per week. The best will can have up to 4 deliveries per week. I'll crunch the numbers later.

That's exactly my point. No supplies flow in the same doses every day. That explains why there could be no supply flow or 2 (or even 3 days with a bad dice) in a row, expecially when there's already no HQ in a hex. It's how the game works and always worked IMO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
May be. Some supply may have been delivered and it was already consumed before you could see it.

Exactly. Supplies had been used marching out and are eaten by two Japanese attacks.

-----------------
That was about game mechanics. From the logical POV...

Besides I think the Allied LCUs in this sitiation even should not receive much supplies through a river hexside in an enemy controlled hex. Because there is something called ZOC (zone o control) manual p. 191. Does ZOC really has no impact on supply delivery?

How much supplies you think you SHOULD receive through a MAJOR river hexside in an ENEMY CONTROLLED HEX with 80 k troops almost surrounded (I had passed gros of my forces exactly through a hexside Allies entered in) with air raids bombing troops and bridges every day unopposed, preventing the swift movement? How many bridges are there IRL over NE of Patna (Gandaki River or Brahmaputra no matter...).

These troops had been isolated (is Japanese controlled, all hex sides are red for two turns) and if the AI says "destination cannot be reached" then there's no valid supply path (AI tells me I cannot reach the destination) although this sometimes can be a glitch 'cos sometimes it's enough the click some other part of the hex to "catch it". So maybe there's something more in the game inner mechanics that's important apart from the hexsides "all green"?

Trying to think about RL situation I find it perfectly understood there's a supply delivery cut if the LCUs are on the other side of the big river, under constant attacks, had been surrounded for some time and the bridgehead is destroyed with an unit that crossed the hexside annihilated.

-----------------
This is a copy of my questions in the tech part of the forum.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3793123

Questions:
How exactly is the supply flow calculated?
Is it the same every turn in every hex with open/owned hexside?
Or different in a contested hex with both enemy's LCUs present?
Does it mean the supplies should arrive there every single turn in standard doses regardless of rivers, mountains etc.?

Explanation: Once upon a time (with patches 6m3 in 2012 or something...) there were numbers in hexes showing the supply amount flowing into every hex.
Those numbers diminished with miles or river blocks.
Today, when you position your map in a base hex and hit "5" you see only yellow dots.

-----------------

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< Message edited by viberpol -- 1/30/2015 12:55:33 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 5:13:21 PM

crsutton

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Really can't explain this double post.....

< Message edited by crsutton -- 1/30/2015 7:09:37 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/30/2015 5:14:59 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Trying to think about RL situation I find it perfectly understood there's a supply delivery cut if the LCUs are on the other side of the big river, under constant attacks, had been surrounded for some time and the bridgehead is destroyed with an unit that crossed the hexside annihilated.

I am not discussing RL situations here but game mechanics and what can reasonably be expected to happen. My contention that with a clear green hex side, excellent road net and ample supply resources at surrounding bases and all through India these units should have had no trouble gaining sufficient supply. In my past experience battle and movement would have little impact as this is an ideal situation for supply flow. And considering that there was a full day between the two battles. My reason for suspecting a bug is that apparently "no" (read zero) supply at all flowed into this hex at all when the green hex side has been there for three days. And apparently I was affected by a "known" bug in that I could not direct a unit to move into the hex from the west. Could this be related? Possibly.

We have played close to 2,000 turns in our gaming history and my past experience is that if I clear the hex side then I should be fine given the terrain and road net. This is the way it usually works. I am at a loss to explain why supply did not flow in this case.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 2:41:39 PM

crsutton

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A clearer shot of the hex sides and who controls them.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 2:45:50 PM

crsutton

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My supply levels three days after clearing the westernmost hex side. A 1-1 battle has just taken place in which I managed to win but was in low supply. There was then two days of no combat and Ark then smacked three divisions as they were moving out of the hex. However those three remaining divisions did not take any supply in the intervening two turns.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 4:07:08 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

A clearer shot of the hex sides and who controls them.

An issue that Alfred mentioned is a known issue/bug, but is not on the agenda to be fixed. Sometimes, the game is sensitive to exactly where on a hex you click. So, when trying to give a units orders to move to that hex you might be running into that issue. Alfred pointed out that clicking on the crossed swords when ordering movement will always or usually not work. So when giving the movement orders to the units to the left, click on a part of the target hex closer to an edge.

That should work. If it does not work, and you have tried it a bunch of times pointing to different nooks and crannies of the target hex each time, then that would sound like a new/different bug and it might make sense to put the saves, screen pics and description into Tech Support.

Notice that I am focusing on unit movement, not supply movement. You can see the units and sort that out. The supply, not so easy. If the units can move the supply should be able to, if the units can't (because of a bug) then supply probably will have the same problem.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 4:13:48 PM

viberpol

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Actually... here are some more details.

The hexside has been cleared: 42.10.03.
My first assault 1:1 has been: 42.10.05.
It's only a day break between.
Even if the supplies flown in, they'd been eaten by the assault.

May second assault: 42.10.07.
Again a day break between.
It has repulsed 3 Allied divisions lagging behind the main force.

Frankly,
If that's true what Alfred says, and supplies flow into a hex (medium range) only up to 4 times a week, I see nothing strange that you didn't get the supplies more frequently.

Also, if your screen is from 3 days after the hexside cleaning (id est before my last attack on 42.10.07), I see nothing strange that you didn't manage to leave the hex earlier.
In good conditions (high morale, low fatigue) you need at least 4 days x 15 miles to leave the hex if units are in combat mode. If you started marching on the 4th, till 7th it's exactly 4 days marching. And I see only one unit in reserve mode.
For me it's just my perfect timing.

< Message edited by viberpol -- 1/31/2015 5:52:13 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 6:24:13 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

Actually... here are some more details.

The hexside has been cleared: 42.10.03.
My first assault 1:1 has been: 42.10.05.
It's only a day break between.
Even if the supplies flown in, they'd been eaten by the assault.

May second assault: 42.10.07.
Again a day break between.
It has repulsed 3 Allied divisions lagging behind the main force.

Frankly,
If that's true what Alfred says, and supplies flow into a hex (medium range) only up to 4 times a week, I see nothing strange that you didn't get the supplies more frequently.

Also, if your screen is from 3 days after the hexside cleaning (id est before my last attack on 42.10.07), I see nothing strange that you didn't manage to leave the hex earlier.
In good conditions (high morale, low fatigue) you need at least 4 days x 15 miles to leave the hex if units are in combat mode. If you started marching on the 4th, till 7th it's exactly 4 days marching. And I see only one unit in reserve mode.
For me it's just my perfect timing.

Ark,

You are wrong about that, Allied units on major roads in reserve status with supply will exit a clear hex in two days traveling 28-30 miles per day. My artillery, HQ, AA, units are were ordered to move at the same time as the infantry and were already out of the hex when you attacked. The three remaining units had traveled about 44 miles in two turns and were close to exit but were probably slowed due to being short of supply. Armor units left the hex in one turn.

The infantry regiment that shocked into the hex and was hurt so badly was ordered out of the hex and was already back with it's parent unit in the adjacent hex when you did your 1-1 attack. So, it could have only taken that unit two turns to leave the hex.

But the rate of march is not the issue here and should not be part of the discussion. The issue is why supply was not flowing into the hex. Quite frankly if I had a supply flow there is no way I would have left the hex and given my preponderance of superior tank units-no way you would have put me out. The issue is not even low supply flow but the total lack of supply flow into the hex for the four of five turns after I cleared the hex-side to the west. My contention is that supply should have flowed and based on my past experience, I expected to be fully supplied in that hex after only one turn. If I was in the mountains of China, then I would have expected something else.

The notion that your 1-1 attack is the reason that my supply was low is not a consideration. After all your troops had plenty of supply and obviously pulled supply after the battle. My point is that I got no supply in any of the turns after I cleared an open hex side. That should not happen under the circumstances.

I still suspect a bug.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 1/31/2015 6:27:39 PM

witpqs

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Leadership stats and unit stats affect movement also. This includes the more stats like disruption, fatigue, and morale.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 12:18:39 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Leadership stats and unit stats affect movement also. This includes the more stats like disruption, fatigue, and morale.

You are right, and in this case all of those stats are good. However, one of the divisions had no supply and I know that will slow them down. But once again, the issue here is not the impact on movement. It is the supply factor.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 12:53:59 AM

witpqs

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I'm not convinced that supply isn't flowing properly. It would be great if there were some additional log files or something that detailed things like supply flow, but there aren't.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 12:32:45 PM

viberpol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
But once again, the issue here is not the impact on movement. It is the supply factor.

Well, Ross, then I think a single screen from unknown date after a big fight doesn't say a thing. Again, I say that no supplies flow in every hex every day.

All we can do now, is to calculate the supplies visible to a player changing in the hex.
See the red loop down below. If you can attach screens with dates visible, then we can check if there were some supplies flowing in or not. I have just send you files from the whole week 1 - 7.10 (since encirclement till forced retreat).

But I really think what we should still remember is the fact that the supplies shown in the stack, it's not everything that flows in, because some are used by the moving troops or destroyed during fight etc.

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< Message edited by viberpol -- 2/1/2015 1:33:16 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 2:39:15 PM

witpqs

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quote:

But I really think what we should still remember is the fact that the supplies shown in the stack, it's not everything that flows in, because some are used by the moving troops or destroyed during fight etc.

This is the critical part people often forget when trying to sort out this sort of thing.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:09:50 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

But I really think what we should still remember is the fact that the supplies shown in the stack, it's not everything that flows in, because some are used by the moving troops or destroyed during fight etc.

This is the critical part people often forget when trying to sort out this sort of thing.

Well yes, but I have played enough turns to know that on a good road net in clear terrain this is not normal. Moving and fighting one battle should not leave units in this sort of state. In China yes, but not on the plains of India. It makes no sense.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:33:46 PM

witpqs

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Look also at the supply of nearby bases. Only those within range can send supply directly to the troops. How is the supply situation at the bases close by?

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:42:25 PM

Alfred

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It does make sense.

This thread is lacking in info but there is sufficient to see that some supply has moved in.

1. It was not originally obvious that the regt which crossed the river from the west did so to create an escape route for a very large trapped Allied army.

2. That any supply is present in so many units which

(a) had been totally cut off from supply
(b) had been attacked

have any supply at all, is testimony that some level of resupply occurred when the western hexside was opened.

3. The India Command unit is in the white. That could not be the case unless it had been resupplied as it would have participated in combat.

4. Most of the Allied units have "replacements" turned on. It is quite likely that over the entire week some replacements were taken on and if so, that would be a severe drain on supply consumption.

5. Forts are being built. That uses up a lot of supply.

6. That hex (54,29) has a requirement for supply of over 12k. That is a very large demand and very difficult to be met fully in one turn from any single base.

7. No info has yet been provided about the internal supply demands of the nearby bases. The supply depots of those bases need to meet both their own demand and that of any other units out in the field in a different hex. All the various demands need to be met, the code does not prioritise some at the expense of others where the same criteria exists.

If there is a supply movement bug at work here, the info provided to date does not support it's existence. On the contrary, the little info provided to date is consistent with everything WAD. Nor will Tracker, which works off the saved end of turn file, shed any light on this as it does not track intra turn supply consumption.

Alfred

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:42:33 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Look also at the supply of nearby bases. Only those within range can send supply directly to the troops. How is the supply situation at the bases close by?

Actually, isn't it only bases with x2 supply that will forward supply.

I occasionally do something stupid like set a base to accumulate supplies forward and forget to release them.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:44:59 PM

crsutton

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Ok, here we go. Begin turn on Oct 2, after 1-1 battle. Units are isolated after battle. Supply as expected.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:45:56 PM

crsutton

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Oct 3, no battle, units idle. Allied units isolated. Supply as expected.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:49:13 PM

crsutton

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Oct 4. Allies shock from west hex w/unit to open supply hex from the west. Japanese shock in hex at low supply Allied units. 1-1 attack but suffer poor results. Beginning of turn Allies supply line open but supply does not rise.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:55:05 PM

crsutton

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10/5. Both armies idle in hex. Supply route is open. Beginning of the turn and Allied supply has dropped no supply flow.

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 4:57:29 PM

crsutton

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10/6. Beginning of turn. No supply flow. No combat. I grow concerned and decide to skedaddle.

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< Message edited by crsutton -- 2/1/2015 5:58:06 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 5:02:34 PM

crsutton

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10/7. Armor has vacated hex in one turn. Now in adjacent hex and in full supply! AA, HQ and artillery units have moved 29 miles in reserve status and will be out of the hex before combat can occur in the next phase. Three big infantry divisions are at about 22-25 miles and will not be out of the hex. Ark attack and shatters the three infantry divisions before they get out. Note that one division is now at zero supply. No supply flow into the hex. IT is 10/7 and there has been a clears LOS to the west for four days with zero supply flow. This is not right...In addition after clearing the west hexside, I was unable to direct units to move into the contested hex from the west. As said this is a known bug. Is there a relationship? I suspect so.

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< Message edited by crsutton -- 2/1/2015 6:04:22 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 5:24:47 PM

1EyedJacks

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When I see units that go into the white when they were previously in the red I believe supplies are coming in. If no supplies come in to a hex I do not think that the units within the hex will redistribute their supplies amongst each other. I'm curious as to the Admin rating of the leaders of those units that did go from red to white - specifically the ARM units 255th and the 2/5th & 2/6th. Are their leader Admin values somewhat higher than the average Admin rating of the other units in that stack? Or is there some pecking order for units that receive supplies within a hex?

And as Alfred pointed out in regards to fort levels - I note that defensive forts went up from 0 to level 1. I'm not sure but I think that if you would have put all of your units on reserve starting October 3rd that your fort level would still be 0 but your units would have been better supplied.

If you have, lets say, 1,000 supply points that come into a hex with 10 units is there something that says the pecking order is - just-4-example: ARM/INF/ENG/ART or is it perhaps success roles based on a leader's Admin rating? Or maybe something else? I'm pretty sure it is NOT each unit gets a "fair share" of 100 points...

Editing another thought here: If you would have done a bombardment instead of a shock attack I think it would have drawn in additional supplies for your artillery units. I seem to remember reading (and it was probably somewhere in the forum - which is not often a good authority on the subject - that performing a bombardment will draw supplies into a hex).

< Message edited by 1EyedJacks -- 2/1/2015 6:32:54 PM >

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RE: Settle an argument-supply flow. - 2/1/2015 5:40:19 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Look also at the supply of nearby bases. Only those within range can send supply directly to the troops. How is the supply situation at the bases close by?

Actually, isn't it only bases with x2 supply that will forward supply.

I occasionally do something stupid like set a base to accumulate supplies forward and forget to release them.