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What should a begginer choose?

 
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What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:00:31 PM   
RakuPL


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/8/2015
From: Poland
Status: offline 		First of all I wanted to say hello to all members and staff here at the Matrix forums!

As you can see this is my first post here as I'm a beginner at Matrix/Slitherine games (played Panzer Corps and W40K: Armageddon only ).

I've decided to take next step in my video games hobby with some more serious challenge, so I wanted to ask more experienced players here (in terms of hex-based wargames) to advise what game should I choose to start with:

Commander Europe at War
The Operational Art of War III
Gary Grigsby's War in the East
Gary Grigsby's War in the West
or else?

Thank you very much for patience for a new member :)

< Message edited by RakuPL -- 2/8/2015 8:00:45 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:24:19 PM   
Ranger33

 

Posts: 557
Joined: 8/11/2012
Status: offline 		Welcome! I've been playing wargames for quite awhile but would still consider myself a beginner compared to other guys here. I have a ton of games from Matrix but have a hard time focusing on just one for a long time so I kind of suck at most of them.

If you are interested in a variety of theaters at different scales, Operational Art of War is a great bang for your buck. It's fairly complicated to play though, so pencil in a few afternoons to get a handle on it.

If you want the new hotness, Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm is awesome. More intuitive to learn and better looking. However, it is specific to Cold War gone hot at a sort of grand tactical scale.

The Commander series is solid, a nice gradual step up from Panzer Corps and Warhammer. WWI is newest in this series and a good game. I would also recommend taking a look at the AGEOD games. They play differently from anything else out there, so it's a love it or hate it series for most.

I would hold off on the "monster" games for awhile. They are awesome in theory, but take real dedication to get the most out of them. I know from experience!

(in reply to RakuPL)
Post #: 2
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:28:35 PM   
Rodwonder

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 12/7/2013
Status: offline 		A good start is your preferences in history... It seems you lean toward WW2 so Commander is a pretty good start. Decisive Campaigns and any Steel Panthers are really great too. Welcome to a great hobby!

(in reply to RakuPL)
Post #: 3
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:32:12 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Welcom RakuPL. You have come to a good place

I would strongly encourage you to avoid the Grigsby games. I've been wargaming (but not very well) for 30 years, and I rarely play them due to the complexity and level of commitment to digest a 400 page manual.

TOAW3 is a timeless game that can be mastered with some effort. Also, tons of scenarios for this classic. Graphics-wise, you probably need to be a board wargamer to appreciate its lack of flash. But I love those colorful NATO counters.

An excellent game that is not on your list is Flash Point Red Storm. You can jump right in (and lose) and have a great time doing it. I cannot say the same for many games. The Battle Academy series is probably a bit too simple for you (although multiplayer is quite tense). Flashpoint keeps getting better and better with each patch, and is reasonably priced for what you receive.

Another option would be Advanced Tactics Gold. Again, you can play it and have fun losing and catch up on the rules and the editor later. Graphics are pretty basic, and it is less complex than TOAW3. Also, be sure to avoid the Harpoon games like the plague. Command Modern Air/Naval Operations is what Harpoon should have been years ago. It's a very detailed game you can sort of dive into, but not as easily as FPRS or ATG.

BTW, I only played Panzer Corp multiplayer recently, and it can be one nail biting game. Versus the AI not so good. Just my ramblings, and I'm sure there will be others. Lots of stuff here to buy!

(in reply to RakuPL)
Post #: 4
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:35:44 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RakuPL

First of all I wanted to say hello to all members and staff here at the Matrix forums!

As you can see this is my first post here as I'm a beginner at Matrix/Slitherine games (played Panzer Corps and W40K: Armageddon only ).

I've decided to take next step in my video games hobby with some more serious challenge, so I wanted to ask more experienced players here (in terms of hex-based wargames) to advise what game should I choose to start with:

Commander Europe at War
The Operational Art of War III
Gary Grigsby's War in the East
Gary Grigsby's War in the West
or else?

Thank you very much for patience for a new member :)
Warpite1

Welcome to the forum RakuPL

If you are into WWII and hex based games then there is one obvious candidate (subject to some key caveats).

Matrix World In Flames is, quite simply in this writer's opinion, the best war game ever.

There are issues with the computer game at present (and these are being worked through) and the net effect is that solitaire or playing by e-mail (needs to be an opponent you can completely trust) are the only real ways of playing. A limited Net Play is being tested (Barbarossa scenario) but its early days.

To purchase this game you need to take a long term view of its ultimate completion - and it is expensive. That said, it is a richly enjoyable, highly replayable and fun game.



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Post #: 5
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:46:20 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		With all due respect to one of the most senior and well-respected members on this forum, World in Flames is the last game I would recommend the OP buy. The only good thing about it is it is now $69 and not the $102 I paid. I have not lost hope and plan to return to the game in about a year or two when the lone developer can solve its many issues.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:46:39 PM   
RakuPL


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/8/2015
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Welcome! I've been playing wargames for quite awhile but would still consider myself a beginner compared to other guys here. I have a ton of games from Matrix but have a hard time focusing on just one for a long time so I kind of suck at most of them.

If you are interested in a variety of theaters at different scales, Operational Art of War is a great bang for your buck. It's fairly complicated to play though, so pencil in a few afternoons to get a handle on it.

Does TOAWIII support widescreen resolutions? Just noticed C:EatW is strictly 1024x768 only and would prefer larger FOV

quote:

If you want the new hotness, Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm is awesome. More intuitive to learn and better looking. However, it is specific to Cold War gone hot at a sort of grand tactical scale.

The Commander series is solid, a nice gradual step up from Panzer Corps and Warhammer. WWI is newest in this series and a good game. I would also recommend taking a look at the AGEOD games. They play differently from anything else out there, so it's a love it or hate it series for most.

Forgot to mention in my first post I'm rather dedicated to WWII

quote:

I would hold off on the "monster" games for awhile. They are awesome in theory, but take real dedication to get the most out of them. I know from experience!

Thank you for your reply, Ranger33! Still looking forward for more answers and suggestions

EDIT: Thank you guys for your prompt replies, I will go through and post back my views!

< Message edited by RakuPL -- 2/8/2015 8:48:32 PM >

(in reply to Ranger33)
Post #: 7
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 7:52:42 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

With all due respect to one of the most senior and well-respected members on this forum, World in Flames is the last game I would recommend the OP buy. The only good thing about it is it is now $69 and not the $102 I paid. I have not lost hope and plan to return to the game in about a year or two when the lone developer can solve its many issues.
warspite1

No problem rosseau - each to his own. I did give a number of caveats. To me, $102 with the state its in is worth it. But I can fully understand why others may not think that.

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Post #: 8
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 8:08:37 PM   
RakuPL


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/8/2015
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your replies. I've been looking into the store section to have some look at the WW2 category and still the most interesting games for me are TOAWIII, War in the East, War in the West, but... TOAWIII looks even more promising due to lower price than two others Anyway Matrix website states it was released in 2006. Doesn't it suffer any technical hindrance like fixed resolution mentioned for Commander: Europe at War?

quote:

Matrix World In Flames is, quite simply in this writer's opinion, the best war game ever.

There are issues with the computer game at present (and these are being worked through) and the net effect is that solitaire or playing by e-mail (needs to be an opponent you can completely trust) are the only real ways of playing. A limited Net Play is being tested (Barbarossa scenario) but its early days.

Thanks warspite1 for your answer. I would really prefer a title where there would be possibility to play against AI

And what's more I not in fear of long and difficult learning curve. I just want to spend money once and good for a long time

< Message edited by RakuPL -- 2/8/2015 9:10:16 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 8:13:15 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		any or all of those will give a challenge, and none are bad choices, i'd work from the top down and enjoy them all, one at a time, leaving WITE for last, as it's the hardest and most challenging,or so have i found it to be

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Post #: 10
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 8:14:06 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		TOAW III works on beautifully on my 1920 x 1080 widescreen monitor. Just make sure that you are all patched up to the latest version.

Best wishes,
Steve

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I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

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Post #: 11
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 9:57:45 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RakuPL
Doesn't it suffer any technical hindrance like fixed resolution mentioned for Commander: Europe at War?


The original TOAW was released in the 90s, TOAW III is a re-release of the game with a lot of work done to bring it up to date so to speak. It’s a great game but does have some drawbacks. The main drawback is the generic nature of the title. It tried to do everything and in so doing wasn’t able to focus on specific issues for different eras and theaters of operation, so most scenarios are chalk full of special house rules and work arounds in text file format that you need to read up on offline before you play them.

There were also some engine limitations due to computer memory limitations in the era the game was programmed in, so for instance the most units that can be rebuilt and return to map as reinforcements in a single turn are 9 (a single hexes stacking limit) due to the fact the engine wasn’t capable of allowing more than 1 reinforcement location to be designated, so big east front scenarios that use smaller units scales suffer from issues like that.

This and other issues may have been addressed in the programming to bring it up to date, but I’d expect many of the older issues to still be present.

Jim



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Post #: 12
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/8/2015 11:06:02 PM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline
But then again...

quote:

What should a begginer choose?

Begginers can't be chooseners!

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Post #: 13
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 12:06:45 AM   
Objekt730

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 2/18/2014
Status: offline 		As someone recently in your exact position, I would strongly recommend Decisive Campaigns: Blitzkrieg From Warsaw to Paris. It is an excellent next step up in complexity (HQs, supply lines, etc.) without hitting you with a massive learning curve. Commander: The Great War and Unity of Command are also excellent choices, although both are a little simpler, with less strict "wargamey" conventions.

From there I would go to TOAW and the Campaign Series.

I wouldn't recommend Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm...yet. Wait until you have a little more experience with more traditional IGOUGO games and then give Red Storm a whirl. Its a great game. Stay far away from the Grigsby games for now.

Note that Commander: Europe at War is locked at 1024x768 and cannot be played windowed, so I actually wouldn't recommend that one unless you're ok with that.

(in reply to E)
Post #: 14
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 1:53:21 AM   
operating


Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline 		Never tried CEAW, But I do play CTGW quite a bit in MP with others who had CEAW, so I would not think it would take much of a transition to go CTGW, you might find it more challenging than you might think! The game has come a long way since when it was first released 2 years ago and is soon to get better with the official 1.60 patch arriving any day now. Yeah, I like WW II also, you might be surprised to find that WW II was like WW I in many respects. what I hear from these CEAW players is: they wished that CEAW had the improved game engine of CTGW, if you are into MP, it's a good place to get started...

(in reply to RakuPL)
Post #: 15
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 2:16:19 AM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I'm WW2 guy myself,but Flashpoint is the Sh*t. If your bent on WW2 the Campaigns Series fro Tiller gives you a lot of bang for your buck and Combat Command is worth a look, also the Decisive Campaign series and the Decisive Battle series from SSG. A lot to choose from, your only limited by how much learning curve you want and your available playtime. Welcome to the fold.

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Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 16
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 2:47:56 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		Even though it's not a hex based game I always recommend Command Ops to newer players.

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Post #: 17
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 9:02:15 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

The main drawback is the generic nature of the title. It tried to do everything and in so doing wasn’t able to focus on specific issues for different eras and theaters of operation, so most scenarios are chalk full of special house rules and work arounds in text file format that you need to read up on offline before you play them.


TOAW III was designed as an operational level engine to model land campaigns. Some designers have designed strategic and tactical scenarios and/or scenarios that require substantial naval game play. Designers have always pushed the TOAW III engine and have to introduce compromises because of the scenario design. This is not a fault of the TOAW III engine, that it can be done at all (albeit with house rules) is a testament to the quality of the engine.

quote:


There were also some engine limitations due to computer memory limitations in the era the game was programmed in, so for instance the most units that can be rebuilt and return to map as reinforcements in a single turn are 9 (a single hexes stacking limit) due to the fact the engine wasn’t capable of allowing more than 1 reinforcement location to be designated, so big east front scenarios that use smaller units scales suffer from issues like that.


The 9 unit stacking limit is a non-issue of the TOAW III engine. If a scenario designer chooses to create a Barbarossa scale map at 2.5km with company size units then yes it becomes a problem. But this is a fault of the scenario design not the engine.

TOAW III allows for multiple reinforcement locations.

quote:


... but I’d expect many of the older issues to still be present.


TOAW III certainly has some older issues. The air model is simplistic though functional. And currently, the naval model is all but non-existent (although being worked on for the next patch.)

TOAW III is not perfect but many of the problems complained about are due to poor scenario design rather than a fault with the engine.

Best wishes,
Steve



_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

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Post #: 18
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 10:21:46 AM   
Greybriar


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		I just wanted to welcome you to the Matrix forums, RakuPL.

Good luck deciding on which game(s) you are going to play next. Have fun!

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RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 11:52:35 AM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline 		Welcome Marcin! The games you listed are good...the games that the other members here suggested are equally as good! Whatever you decide will be the right choice! Happy Gaming to you!

Patrick

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RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 12:01:01 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline 		Welcome to the forums. I just want to suggest Panzer Korps for a starting game.

edit:-doh! I see now that you played it. Nevermind.

< Message edited by vonRocko -- 2/10/2015 2:30:37 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 12:13:50 PM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I was not going to post on this thread because I knew you would get tons of great input on this forum. But as I read the title I said to myself.., "there are so many great choices, but the worst for any beginner (or most any gamer) would be AGEOD because no one knows which way is which, combat results are a mystery, most of the game results are shrouded in mystery/chaos, play be email is not password protected, and last but not least there is no competent manual."

I opened the thread and saw the first response was AGEOD.

I can assure you, anything but AGEOD is the way to go.

Good luck and welcome.

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 22
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 4:13:43 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RakuPL

Gary Grigsby's War in the East
Gary Grigsby's War in the West
or else?

Those and War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition are the most massive monster war games evah. Definitely not for beginner. For operational war game I can recommend Unity of Command. It plays much like Panzer Corps, but # of different units is more limited: some variety with foot infantry, couple different mechanized infantry (per nation), and couple different tank units (per nation). Main differences to Panzer Corps are:
Greater importance of maneuver warfare
Supply by railways, and getting cut off from it will reduce combat effectiveness (even when unit doesn't move nor fight!)

The Operational Art of War III is bit more complex and even seasoned members of this forum tell it is bit too much of a chore and they want to play Unity of Command instead. Demo is available of the first game in the series. Gameplay is very much the same as it is in the newest, though there likely are significant differences "under the hood". Still gives you feel of the game, and one game review I have read about it says that demo alone would be worth of full priced game.

I also recommend you to try tactical games for variety. Steel Panthers series was mentioned, and 3 different games of that series are available for free:
Steel Panthers: World at War (SPWAW)
WinSPWW2
WinSPMBT
If you buy SPWAW, you get 4 Mega Campaigns that are more advanced and detailed than what comes with the free game. Other 2 games are also available for buy (not from Matrix/Slitherine though), but don't offer as much gameplay content. Variety of screen resolutions is sole thing I can remember.

Also have a look at Battle Academy series. It plays easier and faster than Steel Panthers series, but is less detailed. Demo is available for the first game of the series. And sequel game has focus on Eastern Front.

Panzer Corps has got bunch of expansions. I've got myself Grand Campaign Mega Pack, which includes whole Grand Campaign series. Beauty of that is to take your force from one Grand Campaign to next.

When you consider what to buy next, you can consult on YouTube as well. You can use following search phrase:
let's play *
where * = game name

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 2/9/2015 5:15:31 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 4:55:51 PM   
Otto von Blotto


Posts: 273
Joined: 7/18/2008
Status: offline 		Hi RakuPL and welcome, as you have already played panzer corps I would suggest as **budd** did

The John Tiller Campaign Series, for a tactical game it is quite an old game now but has been updated and improved regularly over the years and still has a large number of players, the amount of scenarios to play that cover the whole war on all fronts is staggering with more being added all the time. There is also a very healthy pbem community over at the blitz club http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=8 which is where the game really shines for once you have gotten the hang of playing the game against the AI and what to go up against another human it's a different game altogether.

or for a more operation level game, the Decisive Campaign series is also a good call.



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Post #: 24
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 7:46:27 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Welcome RaKuPL,

I'm sure there are many good ideas on this thread.

You said:
And what's more I not in fear of long and difficult learning curve. I just want to spend money once and good for a long time.

I would have recommended War in the Pacific Admirals Edition for you.
But, I think you should hold off on that. Not for beginners.
Also, it is so good it will spoil you for other war games.

I bought it about 3 years ago and I have not played another war game since.

Best wishes,
Keith


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Post #: 25
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/9/2015 8:17:18 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

I bought it about 3 years ago and I have not played another war game since.


What other wargame would you have time to play? WitP is like a lifetime game of War in the Pacific.

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Post #: 26
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/10/2015 1:53:05 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

Posts: 804
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Since you're making a step towards a little more wargaming depth, try a few demos. Take your time and assess the options that are available. I would suggest, since no one has, that you should look at Strategic Command. First edition is kind of simple, Panzer General like, but moving into greater immersion with SC2 and its various versions, culminating with global grand strategy "Assault on Democracy". You can run the whole WW2 show, from research, production and diplomacy with an intuitive user interface and combined arms interaction of land, air and naval combat.

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Post #: 27
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/10/2015 6:26:14 AM   
RakuPL


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/8/2015
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The problem with SC2 is that Battlefront's website is blocking my IP. I have contacted their webmaster and reply was less than satisfactory (IP range blocked due to spam, need to change IP). So I can't even have a look at it.

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Post #: 28
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/10/2015 1:13:27 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Since you're making a step towards a little more wargaming depth, try a few demos. Take your time and assess the options that are available. I would suggest, since no one has, that you should look at Strategic Command. First edition is kind of simple, Panzer General like, but moving into greater immersion with SC2 and its various versions, culminating with global grand strategy "Assault on Democracy". You can run the whole WW2 show, from research, production and diplomacy with an intuitive user interface and combined arms interaction of land, air and naval combat.


Good idea!

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Post #: 29
RE: What should a begginer choose? - 2/10/2015 1:15:26 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RakuPL

The problem with SC2 is that Battlefront's website is blocking my IP. I have contacted their webmaster and reply was less than satisfactory (IP range blocked due to spam, need to change IP). So I can't even have a look at it.


That's not good , it's time to change your IP if you can.

Patrick

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