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Request: GBU drop altitude

 
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Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 12:34:42 PM   
jarraya

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		In the game some GBUs can only be dropped from 10,000 ft or above. However, in reality they can be dropped from lower and can also lofted to target, meaning that range can be extended from low altitude.

Request to reduce the min launch altitude for all GBUs.


http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/bombs/paveway/paveway_en.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jp3_09_1.pdf
Post #: 1
RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 12:54:42 PM   
Primarchx


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Status: offline 		Ideally air-dropped weapons that have an altitude/range relationship should have variable ranges based on their release altitude. For now I plan accordingly.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 1:18:28 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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Status: offline 		Yeah the flight profile sets a default value but you can manually adjust to anything in between the drop parameters pretty easily. We may add other profiles in the future that make sense but in this case most modern LGB drops have been from higher altitudes to keep them out of AAA, Shorad SAM system range which for the most part have a low ceiling.

Mike



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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 4:06:13 PM   
jarraya

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yeah the flight profile sets a default value but you can manually adjust to anything in between the drop parameters pretty easily. We may add other profiles in the future that make sense but in this case most modern LGB drops have been from higher altitudes to keep them out of AAA, Shorad SAM system range which for the most part have a low ceiling.

Mike



Sorry Mike, not sure I follow. Can I drop an LGB from, say, 5000ft?

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 4:22:08 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Sure 5000 ft should fall with most lgb release parameters unless you've got clouds below you.


Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 2/16/2015 5:22:52 PM >

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 5:59:27 PM   
RoccoNZ

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Sure 5000 ft should fall with most lgb release parameters unless you've got clouds below you.


Mike


Is that deliberate? I tried to keep my bomber above the clouds to release, and had a designator-equipped drone below the cloud base. I figured the drone could lase while the bomber dropped from stand-off altitude. No dice.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 6:18:25 PM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RoccoNZ
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Sure 5000 ft should fall with most lgb release parameters unless you've got clouds below you.

Mike


Is that deliberate? I tried to keep my bomber above the clouds to release, and had a designator-equipped drone below the cloud base. I figured the drone could lase while the bomber dropped from stand-off altitude. No dice.


Depends on the bomb. Paveway-I/II and Co. are SALH all the way, so the bomb must have its target painted from the moment of release or else no go. Paveway-III and friends require painting only in the last seconds so you can do what you describe.

EDIT: No, you cannot. One of the bugs raised by players has been that aircraft "launch and leave" partial-SALH weapons like Hellfire (and Paveway-III) which creates problems. So we changed it so that even with partial-SALH weapons you _must_ have a lock at launch. So drop under the clouds.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 2/16/2015 7:20:36 PM >

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 7:42:42 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		This is splitting hairs though. If the weather sucks drop a GPS guided weapon or dual mode.

Mike



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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 9:36:44 PM   
jarraya

 

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Can't drop below 10,000 ft. Is this a DB change that is needed?




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< Message edited by jarraya -- 2/16/2015 10:38:06 PM >

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/16/2015 11:44:52 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Ah looks like you found one that wasn't Ok will adjust it next update to give you a little more leeway.

Mike

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 4:34:28 AM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

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Status: offline 		I think the penetrator warhead on the BLU-109 needs to be dropped from at least a medium alt to get the kinetic power to penetrate deep.

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Post #: 11
RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 11:17:47 AM   
jarraya

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

I think the penetrator warhead on the BLU-109 needs to be dropped from at least a medium alt to get the kinetic power to penetrate deep.


Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

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Post #: 12
RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 12:42:36 PM   
Primarchx


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Status: offline 		I don't know of many LGBs in DB3k that drop from less than 10k' AGL. I agree with Mike that current doctrine is to fly above short ranged air defenses to utilize PGMs. This wasn't always the case (European Central Front) and there has been significant work on LGBs that can be used from low level or loft, some of which are in the game. However CMANO isn't set up for the nuances of employing these weapons realistically from low level as they have fixed ranges regardless of altitude - it's equally not representational to use an LGB from low altitude and get its' full range, either.

For now I'm content to use them as modeled and knowing the Command team we'll be seeing something on this in the future!

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 12:46:49 PM   
jarraya

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I don't know of many LGBs in DB3k that drop from less than 10k' AGL. I agree with Mike that current doctrine is to fly above short ranged air defenses to utilize PGMs. This wasn't always the case (European Central Front) and there has been significant work on LGBs that can be used from low level or loft, some of which are in the game. However CMANO isn't set up for the nuances of employing these weapons realistically from low level as they have fixed ranges regardless of altitude - it's equally not representational to use an LGB from low altitude and get its' full range, either.

For now I'm content to use them as modeled and knowing the Command team we'll be seeing something on this in the future!

Prikarchx would you employ them any differently if you could drop them from a lower altitude?

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Post #: 14
RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 12:48:30 PM   
hellfish6


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Status: offline 		My LGB frustration comes from that 10'k altitude too. Often you'll find clouds at 10'k - especially in older scenarios (there's one Red Flag scenario that I remember this happening to me in). Drop one foot in altitude and the LGB won't drop at all. I wish there was a kind of 'fuzzy' place, either with the clouds or with the drop altitude, to help in these situations.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 12:53:11 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		In most cases you'd toss bomb them which is extremely different parameter all together because at a certain point the plane needs to rise and release the bomb.

Anyways we'll get to these in the future. Try having fun with the game for now.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 12:59:46 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

My LGB frustration comes from that 10'k altitude too. Often you'll find clouds at 10'k - especially in older scenarios (there's one Red Flag scenario that I remember this happening to me in). Drop one foot in altitude and the LGB won't drop at all. I wish there was a kind of 'fuzzy' place, either with the clouds or with the drop altitude, to help in these situations.


If you're manually controlling the aircraft which is where those issues mostly appear your responsible to get the aircraft in the correct parameters for launch. Our game AI can't be built around correcting players errors. You're off 1 ft...Common how'd that happen? Really...

Mike

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 1:04:26 PM   
hellfish6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

My LGB frustration comes from that 10'k altitude too. Often you'll find clouds at 10'k - especially in older scenarios (there's one Red Flag scenario that I remember this happening to me in). Drop one foot in altitude and the LGB won't drop at all. I wish there was a kind of 'fuzzy' place, either with the clouds or with the drop altitude, to help in these situations.


If you're manually controlling the aircraft which is where those issues mostly appear your responsible to get the aircraft in the correct parameters for launch. Our game AI can't be built around correcting players errors. You're off 1 ft...Common how'd that happen? Really...

Mike


No, it's a 1/0 problem. Either you're in the clouds and unable to drop, or you're below the clouds and under your drop altitude. This has nothing to do with players controlling the aircraft. There are cloud levels within the game that begin at 10k feet. This is a problem - especially in those older scenarios before weather was enhanced - when your minumum drop altitude and the base of the cloud layer are the exact same.


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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 1:16:12 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Ah so we've got to program in 10 meters leeyway to allow for that. Well what if Jimbo wants 20m? What do you think is fair leeway?

Why aren't you using a GPS weapons or anything else more suitable to the weather conditions at the time?

Mike

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 1:24:47 PM   
hellfish6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Ah so we've got to program in 10 meters leeyway to allow for that. Well what if Jimbo wants 20m? What do you think is fair leeway?

Why aren't you using a GPS weapons or anything else more suitable to the weather conditions at the time?

Mike


Because we're playing other people's scenarios and/or the CWDB. Check out the "Fighter Weapons School - Ground Attack Tactics GAT 5 & 6" scenario. I don't remember who made it, but you've got two F-4s with GBU-10s and 'light low clouds' at 5-7k feet. You can't drop, so you've just lost half your ground attack capability.

Admittedly, it's a rare occurrence, but it has happened. And you can be sure that some guy out there who bought the game off Steam is gonna run into this problem, not have the patience to go into the editor and fix it, and be a lot more vocal about this one specific issue than I am.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 1:31:27 PM   
jarraya

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Why not just make the altitude lower for all GBUs and then it's not that big a deal.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 2:08:33 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Ah so we've got to program in 10 meters leeyway to allow for that. Well what if Jimbo wants 20m? What do you think is fair leeway?

Why aren't you using a GPS weapons or anything else more suitable to the weather conditions at the time?

Mike


Because we're playing other people's scenarios and/or the CWDB. Check out the "Fighter Weapons School - Ground Attack Tactics GAT 5 & 6" scenario. I don't remember who made it, but you've got two F-4s with GBU-10s and 'light low clouds' at 5-7k feet. You can't drop, so you've just lost half your ground attack capability.

Admittedly, it's a rare occurrence, but it has happened. And you can be sure that some guy out there who bought the game off Steam is gonna run into this problem, not have the patience to go into the editor and fix it, and be a lot more vocal about this one specific issue than I am.


We're not responsible for a scenario writer's errors

I think you're right though its and edge case and as Jorge put it..not that big of a deal. We'll take a look.

Mike

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 6:26:44 PM   
Tomcat84

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6
you've got two F-4s with GBU-10s and 'light low clouds' at 5-7k feet. You can't drop, so you've just lost half your ground attack capability.


Don't forget that you can buddy lase, although I agree that in this case this probably wasnt Primarch's intention for the scenario.


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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/17/2015 9:29:52 PM   
hellfish6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84


quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6
you've got two F-4s with GBU-10s and 'light low clouds' at 5-7k feet. You can't drop, so you've just lost half your ground attack capability.


Don't forget that you can buddy lase, although I agree that in this case this probably wasnt Primarch's intention for the scenario.



Can you buddy laze if the aircraft dropping the weapon is in the clouds?

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 3:25:20 AM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

Just want to point out its not my DB at all; its warfare sims' database; I just host a viewer on the wiki.

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 7:23:33 AM   
dusky

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

You can get a SQLite viewer (for example http://sqlitebrowser.org/), open the DB and run this query: 
select DataWeapon.ID, DataWeapon.Name, LaunchAltitudeMin
  from DataWeapon, DataWeaponPropulsion, DataPropulsion
  where DataWeapon.ID = DataWeaponPropulsion.ID and DataWeaponPropulsion.ComponentID = DataPropulsion.ID 
    and DataWeapon.Type = 2001 and DataPropulsion.Type = 5003
  order by LaunchAltitudeMin

This should select all GBUs -- weapon type 2001 is "Guided Weapon" and propulsion type 5003 is "Weapon Coast".
The query returns 125 weapons. Only these 14 have minimum launch altitude set to less than 3048: 
ID	Name	                                                    LaunchAltitudeMin
1190	BAT	                                                    457.2
86	GBU-24B/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-109A/B]	                    609.6
88	GBU-24D/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-116/B]	                    609.6
91	GBU-24E/B Paveway III GPS/LGB [BLU-109A/B]	            609.6
466	GBU-24/B Paveway III LGB [BPG-2000 PGM, CPE-800 Penetrator] 609.6
738	GBU-24/B Paveway III LGB [Mk84]	                            609.6
823	GBU-22/B Paveway III LGB [Mk82]	                            609.6
871	GBU-24A/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-109/B]	                    609.6
973	GBU-24C/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-116/B]	                    609.6
1071	BK 90 Mjolner Mk2 [24 x MJ2 Anti-Tank]	                    609.6
1072	BK 90 Mjolner Mk1 [72 x MJ1 Anti-Personnel]	            609.6
1188	GBU-44/B Viper Strike	                                    609.6
1302	GBU-24G/B Paveway III GPS/LGB [BLU-116A/B]	            609.6
1709	DWS.39 AFDS [24 x STABO]	                            609.6


< Message edited by dusky -- 2/19/2015 9:00:30 AM >

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 7:50:31 AM   
jarraya

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 9/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan


quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

Just want to point out its not my DB at all; its warfare sims' database; I just host a viewer on the wiki.

Sorry, meant yours as coming from your very useful website!

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Post #: 27
RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 9:01:29 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. Looking up in the string I said we'd look at it so I'm not really sure what is going on . I'll address the two attempts to annoy us in following posts as its is such a waste of time and goodwill it needs to be addressed.

We are currently working on a number of issues but will give this problem the proper attention when it makes sense to. As Hellfish mentioned the issue is an edge case and as Jorge mentioned its not the end of the world. So I had every intention of treating exactly that way.


Thanks!







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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 9:23:18 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dusky

quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

You can get a SQLite viewer (for example http://sqlitebrowser.org/), open the DB and run this query: 
select DataWeapon.ID, DataWeapon.Name, LaunchAltitudeMin
  from DataWeapon, DataWeaponPropulsion, DataPropulsion
  where DataWeapon.ID = DataWeaponPropulsion.ID and DataWeaponPropulsion.ComponentID = DataPropulsion.ID 
    and DataWeapon.Type = 2001 and DataPropulsion.Type = 5003
  order by LaunchAltitudeMin

This should select all GBUs -- weapon type 2001 is "Guided Weapon" and propulsion type 5003 is "Weapon Coast".
The query returns 125 weapons. Only these 14 have minimum launch altitude set to less than 3048: 
ID	Name	                                                    LaunchAltitudeMin
1190	BAT	                                                    457.2
86	GBU-24B/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-109A/B]	                    609.6
88	GBU-24D/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-116/B]	                    609.6
91	GBU-24E/B Paveway III GPS/LGB [BLU-109A/B]	            609.6
466	GBU-24/B Paveway III LGB [BPG-2000 PGM, CPE-800 Penetrator] 609.6
738	GBU-24/B Paveway III LGB [Mk84]	                            609.6
823	GBU-22/B Paveway III LGB [Mk82]	                            609.6
871	GBU-24A/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-109/B]	                    609.6
973	GBU-24C/B Paveway III LGB [BLU-116/B]	                    609.6
1071	BK 90 Mjolner Mk2 [24 x MJ2 Anti-Tank]	                    609.6
1072	BK 90 Mjolner Mk1 [72 x MJ1 Anti-Personnel]	            609.6
1188	GBU-44/B Viper Strike	                                    609.6
1302	GBU-24G/B Paveway III GPS/LGB [BLU-116A/B]	            609.6
1709	DWS.39 AFDS [24 x STABO]	                            609.6



You could of also found it in the database viewer or Baloogan's website. Both have been available for a long time.

I believe we fixed your reported bugs in the released build so what exactly are you so angry about enough to spend time doing this?

Mike


< Message edited by mikmyk -- 2/19/2015 11:22:13 AM >

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RE: Request: GBU drop altitude - 2/19/2015 9:51:16 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan


quote:

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Baloogan is it possible to get an export from your DB for all the GBUs? I've manually gone through most of them and the majority have a 3048m drop altitude.

Just want to point out its not my DB at all; its warfare sims' database; I just host a viewer on the wiki.

Sorry, meant yours as coming from your very useful website!


Why didn't you just ask us although this would be part of our process of fixing it. Did you think asking Baloogan would annoy us?

Mike

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