Triode
Posts: 283
Joined: 9/26/2014
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Well it seems there is litle clarification is needed ))
"Uragan" on 956
from "Standby" mode time of reaction - 16,5-19 sec
in this : 12 sec for ready missile and load launcher(4-5 second to "warm up" and test missiles and 7-8 sec for load launcher) + 4,5-7 sec for target data input in missile
but in real life,citation:
"Time of input target data in missile was 12 sec"
Y.N. Romanov Capt 1 rank former captain of pr.956 "Boevoi"
so in real life for pr956 "Uragans" it is something like 12sec+12sec=24 sec (19-20 sec for all missiles after first)firing cycle
"Shtil" on 11356 "Talwar"
"Shtil" on 11356 more advanced anti-air defence complex than "Uragan" on 956
here is good video about his real work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XRaA_QXREg
so,from this video, time for load same 12 sec but from command "fire" to launch of missile (interval for input data in missile) there is 7 seconds ("Sigma" FCS seems working realy good)
not impressive if compare to "theoretical" 4,5 sec of "Uragan"
but if compare "real" 12 sec of "Uragan" to "real" 7 sec of "Shtil" it is good improvement
So for "Shtil" it is:
12 sec for ready missile and load launcher(4-5 second to "warm up" and test missiles and 7-8 sec for load launcher)
+ 7 sec for load target data in missile
= 19 sec (14 sec for all missiles after first) firing cycle
"Shtil-1" on 11356M (aka #2305 - SKR Admiral Grigorovich [Pr.1135.6M] in database)
fire control systems of Russian 11356 are practicly the same as on Indian "Talwars"
only diferences is launcher, for 11356M it is 3S90E.1 VLS
as you can see on this picture of almost ready "Grigorovich" and there is no "arm-launcher":
http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2015/02/01-3730091-img-0208.jpg
"Shtil-1" VLS
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/9M317ME_MVMS-2011_004.JPG
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/MVMS-2013/MVMS-2013_095.JPG
So, there is no need to move missiles somewhere to launch
purely theoreticaly firing cycle for "Shtil-1" looks like 4-5 second to "warm up" and test missiles + 7 sec for load target data in missile = 11-12 sec
which is in general matches information from "Almaz-Antey" site about 5-10 sec reaction time
most funny thing in Database , "Talwar" with "arm-launcher" OODA looks like:
16 seconds (Novice Proficiency Level)
12 seconds (Cadet)
9,6 seconds (Regular)
8 seconds (Veteran)
6,4 seconds (Ace)
and for 11356M with VLS it is like :
40 seconds (Novice Proficiency Level)
30 seconds (Cadet)
24 seconds (Regular)
20 seconds (Veteran)
16 seconds (Ace)
did you seriosly think "arm-launcher" 3S90 have higher ROF and shorter time of reaction than 3S90E.1 VLS?
How i see Proficiency system in "CMANO"
there is "technical" capabilities of system so as example time of reaction 10 second
"Ace" can achieve this ,but for "Veteran" it is 10 second + some n modifier and so on
If system highly automated differences between "Veteran" and "Novice" modifiers should be smaller
If system doesn't have automatization at all it should be really big gap between "Veteran" and "Novice"
also proficiency should have an impact on probability of hit
as example let look at "Kirov" S-300F trials
citation:
"S-300F in 1982, came on the final stage of state tests. The bulk of the test, of course, took place in the Black Sea, but, of course, take into account the shooting and flyby conducted on NF(firing at high altitude targets in OECM environments can be made only in NF). Chairman of the Government Commission for acceptance tarkr "Kirov" Admiral Bondarenko GA, as Vice Commander of the Navy for military training in some cases just announced regiment of naval aviation combat alarm and thus provide loitering in the air up to 30-40 aircraft simultaneously. Of course, such conditions in the Black Sea could not be.
In fact, the complex was conceived as part of the continued protection of naval forces in the common air defense system, but in those years the emphasis was on reflection attacks low-flying targets, so the first shooting TARKR "Kirov" was carried out on the target RM-15, flying at an altitude of 300 meters. In the south, were crews already had experience shooting with such targets. Practically they kept on lock on boat launches target missile during takeoff and move lock on to missile after launch. In the North experienced crew were not, therefore, acting on a tip of "industry" sailors was not as nimble and missed the target (they just have not been able to tear lock on from boat launched it). Knocked it with complex "OSA-M". Admiral Bondarenko, having learned about the reason for missing the target, said that from now on the ship and his team will work as in combat. Subsequently, no one but the admiral and the captain did not know from which direction, and what the target will be launched. Just play alarm and solve simple task - to shoot down everything that appeared in the air. After some fuss in the first shooting in personnel gained confidence and it is proposed by Admiral regime, led to the fact that almost the entire volume of firing at the final stage of tests was carried out for 12 days.
August 25, 1983, has made the last shooting at the test program, the ship returned to Severomorsk. Admiral played alarm, staff flee to action stations. It turned out that the Deputy. Commander in chief of combat training of its reserve decided to give another target RM-15M. The boat shot out of the coast of the Kola Peninsula, and in the sea, on which the ship was going, it was not less than 5 points. I was on the bridge, and I was not myself when opened hatches launcher and wave at this time covered the fire deck. The rocket passed without comment, and then everything went normally. People grumbled: "Well, who still have to knock?" More shooting was not."
But story do not end here 
"Whatever it was, all project documents was sent to Defense Minister Marshal of the Soviet Union DF Ustinov to represent to the country's leadership. And he did not believe the successful completion of trials and ordered the entire program firings repeat. If you mention that rocket 5V55R while cost about 300 thousand rubles, the Air Defense Forces - main customers of missiles - howled. Navy only with ammunition of existed at the time the ships completely took away eighteen months production, but there is also the absence of any savings.
Order of the Minister to challenge no one, but again only a reflection of the attack six targets RM-6. DF Ustinov did not believe a successful outcome and ordered to transfer to NF entered into operation RKR "Slava" (Project 1164), and conduct a series of joint shooting. As a result, all of the additional firing 96 missiles had been spent. Observers from all regulatory authorities carefully watched, that only Navy sailors working on stations. The result of each shooting to report to the Minister of Defense, other ministers with bated breath followed the events in the north. Our department for this shooting did not go, URAV Department of the Navy was represented by department of training. All shooting gave 100% success rate. Only after receiving such brilliant results, the minister finally signed the documents and submitted them to court. In addition, without waiting for full registration of adopting it urgently recommended to apply for the award of the Lenin Prize for the development. I have not heard that anyone else for two weeks before the release of the decision to award the Lenin Prize so quickly agreed this question. But, nevertheless, the prize was awarded before the complex was adopted."
So this is what i can called a "Ace" crew that can operates at edge of ship technical capabilities! 96 missiles ! 100% success rate!
but is it difficult to manage such system?
"In the air defense forces, each school trained officers to work in a particular sector. Coming into account, the lieutenant, sitting in a chair in front of such a serious instrument as S-300 system,they get up out of it, receiving the rank of lieutenant colonel and served in that position for minimum about two years.
And this is not a whim of developers, because in order to completely feed all the channels of the system is necessary to accurately press in a row 72 (seventy two) button. That is, you have to be Gilels or Rachmaninoff on the remote control. And imagine the conditions of the battle, when you are shooting at, and must maintain absolute calm, not to lose. Maybe not quite calm, but certainly not only a mental automatism, but muscular when hands doing it by themselfs."
And what result will looks like when you send "Novice" crew to operate such system 
"Not so in the Navy. While there were tests, officers did not touch. All their actions are having such a great experience firings, including in OECM environments, have been worked out to automaticity. No nervous breakdowns - calm, confident. Tests of basic and additional finished. After their completion, start moving, as commanders of the groups and battery commanders maximum lieutenant and it was time to translate them into higher positions.
The following year, the field operators were hardly prepared people. All shooting combat training plans have been Failed with glitter. The success rate - zero. Education had to start anew, and industry begin to rush throughout the fleet."
Zero success,total failure for "Novice" crew
from "Historical Sketches of Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Kirillovich Pechatnikov" (former officer from Office of missile and artillery weapons of the Navy)
So,this is my wall of text.What do you think about it Sunburn?
< Message edited by Triode -- 2/18/2015 8:36:27 PM >
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