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Burma Road question - 2/24/2015 10:41:18 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I was poking around for a thread that I remember that answered some complex, multi-case situations on how the rules for using the Burma Road work, but I couldn't find it.

I can never remember how a certain situation works.

The Chinese have a resource in Kwangsi province north-east of Nanning. The Japanese can frequently block transport of it to the factory in Chang-Sha.

Then the Chinese can transport it to Kunming by tracing a route through French Indo-China.

My question is, can the Chinese still do this if the Japanese "Force closure of Burma Road", which they can do at any time after the USA selects Entry Option 9, Resources to China. ???

This prohibits "an Allied major power" from "transport[ing]" a resource "to China ... via French Indo-China"

Does this then prohibit moving the Chinese resource to Kunming until the USA selects Entry Option 24, Re-open Burma Road ???
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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 6:23:03 AM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		No the resource can be transported that way unless IndoChina is Vichy (assuming the French would allow it and the Vichy installer would not). Closing the Burma Road politically stops lent resources from reaching China whether they come through Burma or through IndoChina. China can always use her roads and railroads to move her own resources.

In the rare case of China lending to other Allies, that is also stopped along those two routes if the Burma road is closed.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 12:02:37 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Sadly, it would read a little better if "Allied" wasn't capitalized perhaps, because China is a Major Power on the Allied side, and "via Indo-China" doesn't really include the internal Burma Road hexes that China can always use. This is a question that didn't arise in the actual war. But if the Japanese could pressure the French to not allow unloading shipments bound for China (historical), one could easily think they could pressure the French to shut the rail links to China as well. One could also think that would be a deeper step that the Japanese could not have done. But the rule as written doesn't really answer that question.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 12:53:55 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

No the resource can be transported that way unless IndoChina is Vichy (assuming the French would allow it and the Vichy installer would not). Closing the Burma Road politically stops lent resources from reaching China whether they come through Burma or through IndoChina. China can always use her roads and railroads to move her own resources.

In the rare case of China lending to other Allies, that is also stopped along those two routes if the Burma road is closed.


I disagree. To me, the closure of the Birma Road is the closure of the border for the transportation of all resources. If Japanese diplomacy would close the Birma Road and the Indo China railroad, it would also be closed for transportation of Chinese resources through Indo China and/or Birma, I believe.



< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/25/2015 1:57:48 PM >

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 1:21:12 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Ultimately I think Chinese production is fairly abstract in general. Are there really two industrial resource sources in the Chungking hex? I doubt it. The map is set up that way to represent the diffuse nature of the Chinese economy, as compared to the fixed resource sites elsewhere on the map. China could draw on a huge land area to contribute minute amounts to their military effort, which would continue no matter how many tiny point sources of their economy the Japanese could get at.

So there is a case to be made that the Kwangsi resource should be allowed to move to Kunming even if Hanoi is closed to shipments from Allies outside China. But I could also read that rule and come to a conclusion that when Japan makes the political choice to close the route through Hanoi, the rail link is also closed by the game rule.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 7:53:20 PM   
Centuur


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Status: offline 		The Chungking/Cheng Tu area had quite some iron and coal mines already open before the Sino-Japanese war. The city of Chungking had already a river link with Shanghai before the war too.

Therefore, it was logically that the Chinese nationalists build factories in those two cities. Iron and Coal were mined in quite large tonnages during the war close to the two cities. During the war, most of the Chinese produced weapons for the Nationalist forces came out of those two cities...

This I found on the internet on the Chungking area:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=YBUUKRw6wP4C&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=Chungking+industry&source=bl&ots=v49cjhJMJI&sig=LZSlrPYekZ5ZaF2Tr4ladOClq-I&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=RTTuVMnuKeeR7Aa2r4G4DA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Chungking%20industry&f=false

One could say that this is stated quite well on the WiF map...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/25/2015 8:55:34 PM >

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 10:25:11 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		that is interesting, thanks. I knew part of the Chungking hex is based on the history, but I do think the 2nd resource in the hex is more of a balancing mechanism to try and help the situation in China fit in with the rest of the game system (still an imperfect result, imo). I do doubt that the Chungking hex could have produced as much war material as the Essen hex, to name just one.

the scale of WiF is kept deliberately obscure to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. games that reveal how many tons of coal come from each hex wouldn't have the same playability by a long way.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/25/2015 11:09:52 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I do doubt that the Chungking hex could have produced as much war material as the Essen hex, to name just one.

It doesn't - that is managed by the PMs.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/26/2015 1:03:17 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
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Status: offline 		another excellent point. maybe game production for China is less diffuse than I thought ... and then maybe the rail link should be blocked by the rules language?

I re-checked the FAQ (I thought this wasn't in there, maybe I opened the old one I should really delete), and it said this:

May the allies use the railroad from Hanoi (if otherwise allowed) to send lend lease to China if the Burma Road is politically closed?
No. Date 23/12/2007

But a Chinese resource is not lend-lease...and I don't really see why would anyone would ask that exact question because the answer should be obvious.

And that obvious-ness overall makes me think "via Indo-China" stops the movement of the Chinese resource too, but that feels "wrong" somehow.

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RE: Burma Road question - 2/26/2015 2:52:11 AM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		The FAQ question was about sending lend lease. China doesn't need to lend lease to herself, as you said.

The Burma Road rules are all about lend lease to China, nothing is written therein about how China gets her own resources to her own factories. FREX China can use the Burma road to send one of the southern resources to Kwei Yang regardless of whether the Burma Road has been opened or closed. Therefore, China getting her own resources must obey the normal rules for transportation (like any other country FREX the road in Finland), and thus it is solely conditional to who controls IndoChina as to China's use of the RR between Hanoi and Kunming.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/26/2015 3:59:23 AM >

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