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Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 12:47:23 PM

oaltinyay

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Hello all,

In a few weeks I'll have to decide what to do with Ki61 Hien / Tony. I am alreay producing gadzillions of Oscars but searching for sth that is better.

I have read the stats but wonder what's your opinion of this 'Japanese 109'. Should I produce it ? Or should I just look the other way and try to make my self comfy with my Oscar pool ?

Post #: 1

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 1:09:49 PM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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no need for KI-61....build Tojo....get away from Oscars as soon as you can but they are still good for long range escorts. KI-43 there really death traps in 43

Tigercub.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 3:05:37 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

Hello all,

In a few weeks I'll have to decide what to do with Ki61 Hien / Tony. I am alreay producing gadzillions of Oscars but searching for sth that is better.

I have read the stats but wonder what's your opinion of this 'Japanese 109'. Should I produce it ? Or should I just look the other way and try to make my self comfy with my Oscar pool ?

Skip till Ki-100.

Serving rating of 1, pretty decent, all round, single engine plane. Great for kamikazies.

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Post #: 3

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 5:21:21 PM

Lowpe

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If the choice is Oscar IV or Tony Ki100 or Tojo IIc I would go with the Oscar IV.

I would go with the Ki100I over the Tojo IIc.

I would go even more for the Frank a-r.

PDU on of course.

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Post #: 4

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 5:31:59 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

Hello all,

In a few weeks I'll have to decide what to do with Ki61 Hien / Tony. I am alreay producing gadzillions of Oscars but searching for sth that is better.

I have read the stats but wonder what's your opinion of this 'Japanese 109'. Should I produce it ? Or should I just look the other way and try to make my self comfy with my Oscar pool ?

In terms of the Ki-61a-c lines, you can do better elsewhere-like the other posters have said. The d model gets more interesting with its armament suite, but it's still not the best choice, IMO.

If you've PDU on and no limitations on your R&D upgrades, then I suggest you look at the Ki-100-I and II options. Probably some of the better fighter aircraft in the war. Again, if R&D is no issue, then you can upgrade your research factories 'up the chain' in the Ki-61 line and, after they're researching the Ki-61d, switch 'em over to the Ki-100-I. You can start pulling this very good fighter forward beginning in July or August of 1942. My goal would be to have it in late 1943 or early 1944. So you will need a goodly number of factories to accomplish this.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 9:15:38 PM

rustysi

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These comments are made with the assumption that PDU is on. I just think that the Japanese R&D needs to be streamlined a bit. The stats of this A/C (Ki-61/100) can be matched by others and therefore can be skipped. Also the original engine is a single user design. BTW its because the engine was a problem for the Japanese that the 100 even came out. When the Japanese gave up on their licensed Daimler engine they had already produced many airframes and simply matched one of their aircolled models to it (forget which one).

Even with PDU off I would consider not bothering with this A/C, but I don't know how many air units would require this plane, and that would be a consideration. I don't have the A/C stats in front of me but IIRC the Tojo has the best climb rate of any Japanese fighter. This and the latter models' four heavy MG's make this a good CAP plane. The Oscar too should be produced in some numbers as it has a good range and can be ablative armor for any raid. Both A/C have a SR of 1 and have armor (eventually). The only shortcomings of these two A/C is that there speed just doesn't keep up as the war progresses. I believe I've heard fighter pilots say 'speed is life'. Of course all this is just MHO.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 9:28:19 PM

John 3rd

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Wouldn't one have to build SOME so they can convert the units that are supposed to come in with Tony?

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/23/2015 9:33:32 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Wouldn't one have to build SOME so they can convert the units that are supposed to come in with Tony?

No, if they can convert to another A/C model (other than Tony) you can just do that, PDU on or off.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 8:32:38 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

Hello all,

In a few weeks I'll have to decide what to do with Ki61 Hien / Tony. I am alreay producing gadzillions of Oscars but searching for sth that is better.

I have read the stats but wonder what's your opinion of this 'Japanese 109'. Should I produce it ? Or should I just look the other way and try to make my self comfy with my Oscar pool ?

With pdu on the early Ki-61 (1a/1b) are Ok planes, the Ic/Id/II KAI are not. Irrespective of you producing them or not they still need researching through the chain to get to the Ki-100 which is worth it.

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Post #: 9

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 9:42:10 AM

Pilsator

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the Tony has two problems, Service Rating of 3 and a short Range. Changing to Tonys basically means giving away the initiative, they are nice Interceptors but not for longer airbattles.

I mostly stick to the Tojos and Oscars(which aren`t that bad)and use a handfull of Tonys for defensive dutys.

Produce the Tonys, but not in the Numbers you do with Tojos and/or Oscars.

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Post #: 10

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 10:50:15 AM

oaltinyay

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Thx all but I guess I'll continue Ki43 on the reason that soon it'll have armor and will be able to carry 2 x 250 bombs....Tojo... I don't know but I value my pilots life...

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Post #: 11

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 11:28:54 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

Thx all but I guess I'll continue Ki43 on the reason that soon it'll have armor and will be able to carry 2 x 250 bombs....Tojo... I don't know but I value my pilots life...

Hmmm. Do you mean your pilots will live more often flying Oscars?

Have a look. The best Oscar is still durability 23, which means a lot of your pilots will die regardless of armor and the 20mm cannons. The Tojo also has crazy climb, which means defensively you'll get a lot in the air. Numbers are the key to doing well against better Allied airframes in the mid-to-late war. The Tojo for me became less effective in 44. That is also because I had the Ki-100 coming on line too, which is a slightly better plane late war, but is slower in most mods which is a negative.

As a kami the Oscar is fine, but it'll get munched by late war Allied flak too compared to other more durable airframes. I found quick and durable airframes to be best as kamis. The Oscar is decent defensively against bombers due to the cannons, but really is still best as an escort.

EDIT: Got the image to load now.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/24/2015 2:44:19 PM >

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 3:25:24 PM

Rising-Sun

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I would skip those german designs, the Japanese however did some improvement over that design, but it was limited. Anyway I would pick Ki-43-IV Oscar, that 20mm cannons on the center line is nasty, esp for intercept enemy bombers.

On the other hand, Ki-44-IIc does have extra advantage of speed by 12 knots and the Oscars can carry a nice payload of 250kg of bombs.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 3:42:21 PM

Lowpe

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I guess a lot of the decision rests upon your particular game situation and playstyle that you really don't mention.

Good points for Tony: a generational plane that gets pretty decent at the KI 100I, and Ki100II versions; it is armored perhaps it might be your first Army fighter depending upon other research. Uses different engines which might be good or bad.

I went ahead and built some in my game because it was my first armored fighter, and despite the high SR3, you need to learn how to live with high SRs as Japan so it makes for good practice.

Also not mentioned, sometimes it is good to mix up plane types in CAP, and have each particular fighter play to their strengths: Oscar very low, Tony and Tojo mid levels, and Georges very high. There seems to be some synergies when you do this, or at least I like to think so.

Also, it is fun to see different planes in action.

I would still take Oscar IV over both Tony and Tojo IIc...

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Post #: 14

RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 4:35:33 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilsator

the Tony has two problems, Service Rating of 3 and a short Range. Changing to Tonys basically means giving away the initiative, they are nice Interceptors but not for longer airbattles.

The Ki-100-I has an SR of 1, which goes a long ways towards making up for the sins of its forefathers.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 9:45:12 PM

John 3rd

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I tend to side on the build a few of them and use them as point defense for some of your more important AF/Bases. Until -100 you don't have a fantastic plane. The early armor argument does have some merit though...

All I have to say about 1944 is FRANK and GEORGE!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 2/24/2015 10:45:46 PM >

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/24/2015 9:56:20 PM

rustysi

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quote:

All I have to say about 1944 is FRANK and GEORGE!

+1

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/25/2015 1:47:20 PM

GreyJoy

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In a PDU OFF game you MUST RnD and build lots of Tonies...and all the models, mind you!

Being forced to use them, I can say that the KI-61 line isn't that bad.

KI-61 "d", especially, is a pretty good plane imho.

SR=2 (it's the first Tony who managed to get under the damned SR=3 step), 2x20mm (ho-5) Center-lined cannons and 2 F heavy MGs (possibly the best armament available for the IJA until Frank "b") and a decent speed (360mhp).

Used in combo with KI-43 IIIa and IV and with the KI-84a it is a very good plane for mid-war dogfight environements

I would not spit on the "a", "b" and "c" versions either...

Once again I can't but suggest to every jap player to consider the idea of playing with PDU OFF... the game experience becomes much much much more interesting and challenging!

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/25/2015 4:46:11 PM

Pilsator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Once again I can't but suggest to every jap player to consider the idea of playing with PDU OFF... the game experience becomes much much much more interesting and challenging!

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/25/2015 6:51:28 PM

Rising-Sun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I tend to side on the build a few of them and use them as point defense for some of your more important AF/Bases. Until -100 you don't have a fantastic plane. The early armor argument does have some merit though...

All I have to say about 1944 is FRANK and GEORGE!

+1

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/25/2015 9:29:59 PM

mariandavid

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Decide early not to build the Ki-61 (any model) - assign its R and D to something more useful and from the start cancel the R and D of the Kawasaki Ha-60 engine and assign it to the Ha-45. You will need tons of those as the Franks and George eventually arrive. Note that the 'final' Ki-61 (the Ki-100) uses the Ha-33 engine so you are not losing anything.

For the second stage of the IJA fighter tree I recommend the Ki-44. Its good at first and later capable of surviving against the new Allied F until it swops out for the Ki-84.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/26/2015 3:45:23 AM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilsator

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Once again I can't but suggest to every jap player to consider the idea of playing with PDU OFF... the game experience becomes much much much more interesting and challenging!

+1

I did PDU Off once and will never do it again

. Just takes too much fiddling to track down what squadrons can upgrade to what when.

I am glad I tried it once though and everyone should give it a try at least once. As it does force you to have to build almost every type of Japanese plane. And it is very educational to be forced to use Claude's/Nates at the start of the war as your squadrons are very limited that contain the better AC types

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/26/2015 5:58:24 AM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilsator

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Once again I can't but suggest to every jap player to consider the idea of playing with PDU OFF... the game experience becomes much much much more interesting and challenging!

+1

I did PDU Off once and will never do it again . Just takes too much fiddling to track down what squadrons can upgrade to what when.

I am glad I tried it once though and everyone should give it a try at least once. As it does force you to have to build almost every type of Japanese plane. And it is very educational to be forced to use Claude's/Nates at the start of the war as your squadrons are very limited that contain the better AC types

With Tracker isn't that difficult to draw a plan of production and know how many squadrons will upgrade to what.
I understand what u say, but it's the only way to be forced to use all the different types of A/C that will surely be skipped withPDU ON (Ki-61 KAI for example...nobody uses it!)

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/26/2015 8:23:09 AM

Rising-Sun

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The problems is that when you play this game or any other that is based on accurate historical settings, that bad news that we already know what is good and what is not. Coming up with research on what frame, engines and designs your own aircrafts as well other ideas would lead into interesting paths. When you see the numbers, you already know that this is the big number. Reality that is, you have to do a lot of experimental testing. When you shoot down an enemy plane that not really that damage or captured one, that is where the studies begin. So trying to catch up with ideas to compete with your opponents is what matter the most.

I was hoping there will be more realistic on upcoming War in the Pacific, of course it would be even more complex though and more colors as well in 3D environments so players would get the ideas what it feel like in the war.

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RE: Tony Build or Skip - 2/27/2015 3:00:43 PM

FDRLincoln

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This is a minority view but I have found the Tony to be an effective anti - bomber type especially the cannon armed C and D models. You have to be careful with air support due to the SR but they have held their own against allied fighters for me through the spring of 1944, even Hellcats. They can't handle Thunderbolts or Spitfires too well but I like the Tony.

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Post #: 25