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Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry

 
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Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 2:21:29 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Server game with meklore.

Only doing daylight raids, hitting HI the last few turns. VPs have been averaging 10 a turn so far. It appears that the condensed nature of these targets are easy to hit and blow up nicely. Thoughts?






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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 2:26:18 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		One thing I've noticed is that no matter how many fighters I have set in his paths, they aren't really shooting many down, considering how far he's flying into Germany, and I have most covering the approaches to those cities he's been hitting, but auto intercepts are low, and when they do they aren't really shooting anything down. I'll keep an eye on it, just to be sure I'm right before I scream "the sky is falling". Yes, the pun was intended.

< Message edited by meklore61 -- 2/27/2015 3:27:15 PM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 3:04:06 PM   
LiquidSky


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Yeah..I figured out that bombing Essen (40), Leipzig (40), Schwienfurt (40), Berlin (35), Dusseldorf (35) and some of the clusters in the Ruhr are good for HI.

As well...Berlin is a nice cluster of Manpower....and Vienna has some nice stuff. I don't think I broke 10vps per turn for bombing, but I was consistently in the 6-8vp area.

I try to use my bombing campaign to cancel out my casualty vps so that I can win on the city points.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 4:16:12 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Status: offline 		That´s pretty impressive!

Btw, can the axis player shut down repairs of factories?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 4:32:12 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		21.2.3., A shutdown is possible - but only when HI hexes get isolated. Otherwise, I don't think that's possible, and you would have to fight against automatic repair, which is 2% per turn for large HIs.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 4:59:36 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Yeah..I figured out that bombing Essen (40), Leipzig (40), Schwienfurt (40), Berlin (35), Dusseldorf (35) and some of the clusters in the Ruhr are good for HI.

As well...Berlin is a nice cluster of Manpower....and Vienna has some nice stuff. I don't think I broke 10vps per turn for bombing, but I was consistently in the 6-8vp area.

I try to use my bombing campaign to cancel out my casualty vps so that I can win on the city points.


I wonder if you bomb the rail lines going out from the Ruhr if it would cripple supply distribution?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 5:51:41 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Status: offline 		I´m more thinking that as the axis I don´t want things to repair....

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 5:57:58 PM   
Balou


Posts: 841
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Status: offline 		NOSB,

The axis production figures for resources/HI/supply look rather awesome.

GC start:
998 resources (= factories)
1392 HI, that convert resources on a 1:1 basis (500 tons of resources give 500 t of supplies per factory point); what's more, there is a production multiplier.
To this add what they already have right from the beginning
4600k of resources (stores+pool)
4400k of supplies in stores
1100k in pool

In my GC (ended in t91 in Berlin) see what's still left:
295 resources
581 HI (no RUHR for 10 weeks)
1600k of resources (stored + pool)
1400k of supplies stored
6900k !!! supplies in pool

I can't see wy the Axis should bother about the Ruhr (HI) or outgoing rail lines being bombed. OTOH there's the VP business, but that's a different story.




< Message edited by Balou -- 2/27/2015 7:04:34 PM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:04:50 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Yeah, that´s why I´m thinking as the axis you don´t want to repair stuff...The factories and everything else is just there to give the WAs something to bomb for VPs. And Germany won´t run out of anything anyway regardless of what you bomb.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:06:40 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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Status: offline 		It doesn't matter what you bomb so I'm max'ing VPs. I understand your point Balou

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:12:21 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

It doesn't matter what you bomb so I'm max'ing VPs. I understand your point Balou


As for now, strat bombing seems to be pure VP hunting.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:19:04 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

It doesn't matter what you bomb so I'm max'ing VPs. I understand your point Balou


As for now, strat bombing seems to be pure VP hunting.


It is no different than bombing u-boats or v weapons.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:24:52 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:31:46 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
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Status: offline 		It's not the bombing...it's the damage that gives vps

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 6:33:31 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Very next turn




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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 7:02:11 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Status: offline 		How do you manage to do damage like that while keeping the U-boats suppressed?

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 7:16:01 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.


I don't think it did. Most sources seem to argue that German industrial production hit its peak in 1944 and only declined in 1945 due to loss of territory.

The quote may be anecdotal but one Allied general summarised the situation in May 1945 as 'the Soviets won the war, we just happened to be nearby'.

The decisive element was the destruction of manpower and material by the Soviets, plus the steady loss of critical resources as the Red Army advanced into regions like Silesia and took over the oil regions in Rumania and Hungary.

What the game models well, is that there was an enduring belief among the allies that strategic bombing could be decisive, Harris persisted in his belief that civilian morale would crack as a result. For the British from 1940-3, Strategic bombing was the only offensive tool, so it was easy to decide to believe it was effective. I think the Americans were more pragmatic, but still they had invested a huge amount in heavy bombers so there was a bit of a mindset that once you'd built the blessed things, you really had to us them.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 7:25:56 PM   
NotOneStepBack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

How do you manage to do damage like that while keeping the U-boats suppressed?


I dedicate the 8th US AF every 3 or 4 turns to just hit all the big dogs on U-boats with about 130 - 150 bombers in each ad. It doesn't matter how much damage you do, as long as they are damaged. Which is stupid, but that's how it calculates.

< Message edited by NotOneStepBack -- 2/27/2015 8:26:35 PM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 7:37:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The quote may be anecdotal but one Allied general summarised the situation in May 1945 as 'the Soviets won the war, we just happened to be nearby'.



You know who said that? Never heard it before and as far as quotes go that is a pretty good one!

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 7:49:59 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I have come to the same conclusion, and have been getting 10-12 Vps a turn in a Server game via strat bombing.

At first I focused on Manpower, but swithced to HI, because HI repairs more slowly. The benefit to Manpower is that you are impacting production of something Germany absolutely needs and runs out of......Men.

I will probably stick to a combination of Manpower and HI. The other advantage to this is that Germans can't predict where you will bomb as they can against more targeted strategies, because HI/Manpower is everywhere

Meklore tried Vehicles against me as Reich, and we both think that was a waste. Vehicles just repair too quickly, and there are only a few large plants. While that makes it easy to bomb them, it also makes it easy to order priority repairs. My vehicle pools really didn't take a huge hit.

OIL is actually the absolute best to hit if you are VP hunting, only because the repair rate is very slow. It's just that there aren't alot of targets in Germany for that.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/27/2015 8:50:53 PM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 8:13:23 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.


In 1942 German ammuntion production doubled, in 1943 Harris launched the Battle of the Ruhr and heavily disrupted it. Amunition production only increased 20% during 43. Amunition being directly linked to steel output. This disruption of heavy industry caused what was called a "Sub component crisis" which affected Industry across the Riech. The Aircraft Industry for instance achieved no monthly increase in output between July 43 and March 44.

Interestingly German Bomber production halves in 44 and Nightfighter production increase 3 fold obviously they were planning to defeat the Russians with more Nightfighters. Or maybe it was the 12 odd thousand 109's produced in 44 Because the Russian Front was the only place they were not obselete.

The strategic offensive defined how Germany could fight the war





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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 8:25:08 PM   
Ralzakark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.


I am away for a few days so haven't got time to dig out the figures today, but the direct effects of allied bombing were threefold.

Adam Tooze's study of the German economy has shown how Bomber Command seriously damaged it in 1943. The stereotype of British bombing as only aiming to break German morale is not very accurate, and area bombing of the Ruhr was one of the main reasons why armaments production stagnated in the second half of 1943.

The grounding of the Luftwaffe through the destruction of its fuel sources is better known. See 'Oil as a factor in the German war effort 1933-1945’ for details. Robert Ehlers ‘Targeting the Third Reich’ looks at the interplay between intelligence, targeting and bombing and has plenty of evidence about how seriously the lack of fuel affected the German war effort.

The transportation plan which started later but then ran in parallel with the oil offensive weakened German industry from October 1944 and induced its collapse in 1945. From then on it was rapidly consuming its existing stocks of raw materials. Speer estimated that if the bombing had stopped in September 1944 that German could have resisted into early 1946. Alfred Mierzejewski’s study of the impact of the transportation plan is a good source.

Richard Overy's 'War and Economy in the Third Reich' is also a good source. It quotes a German study from January 1945 which estimated that bombing had led to a reduction in 1944 of 35% tank, 31% aircraft and 42% lorry production.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 8:27:36 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Balou

Use that wonderful resource, the Internet, or your local library, and do the research yourself to find your opinion of the effect of strat bombing.

Here's a starter
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/index.html


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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 8:32:12 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Thanks a lot.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 8:35:05 PM   
Ralzakark


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Status: offline 		Or you could ask here of course. There are a lot of knowlegable people on this forum

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 9:01:02 PM   
jhdeerslayer


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From: Michigan
Status: offline 		One thing I wondered, how worth it is it to bomb during the bad winter months where conditions are Very Poor? I've been resting my WA air fleet during bad weather.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 9:12:02 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/index.html



Just came across this one (while thinking about strat bombing in WitW) - it's from your link:

" ... Nevertheless, the recuperative and defensive powers of Germany were immense; the speed and ingenuity with which they rebuilt and maintained essential war industries in operation clearly surpassed Allied expectations. Germany resorted to almost every means an ingenious people could devise to avoid the attacks upon her economy and to minimize their effects..."


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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 9:14:37 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		The heavy bombers don't fly in bad weather so it does not matter if you assign them to missions or not - if the weather is Very Poor they do not fly.

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 10:28:03 PM   
Fallschirmjager


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Status: offline 		One of the issues that the Germans faced is that they were still producing heavy quantities of material but could not get it to key places.
By late 1944, the Saar region had mountains of coal but the transportation system was so wrecked that many German areas froze because it could not be moved to where it was needed.

In my last game I tried to focus on the rail network with day and night and even tactical bombing. It was hard to tell the effects if there were indeed any.

I have no idea how resources flow into factories or if they even do at all or instead factories just take what they need if they are available and don't have to worry about the transporting them.

< Message edited by Fallschirmjager -- 2/28/2015 2:07:49 AM >

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RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry - 2/27/2015 11:12:45 PM   
Mickrocks201

 

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Status: offline 		It was due to the wrecked transportation system that Hitler required his army to defend so hard in FRONT of the Rhine near the Rurh... River barges was the only way left to move resources. Cost many troops that could have been better deployed to defend against Rhine crossing by the allies.

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