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Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fighters!! - 3/12/2015 1:10:50 PM

chazz

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
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This is practically a game-breaker for me.

The game insists upon sending my carrier bombers against Japanese carrier groups unescorted; I have tried adjusting the LR CAP and CAP %'s but still no luck.

My carrier fighters are set for ESCORT. at the same altitude as the DB's - 10000'.

It is May of '42, three CV's in the TF, with Bull Halsey in command.

I get the same result every time- all the fighters stay to protect the carrier and one or two (at most) accompany the strike wave. Needless to say my bombers are getting schwacked.

Is there some kind of secret to getting your fighters to go along on carrier strikes?

< Message edited by chazz -- 3/12/2015 2:13:27 PM >

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 1:40:09 PM

Mundy

Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
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Is it a range issue? Bombers flying past the max fighter range?

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 1:45:04 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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It is important to only keep 20-40% of your fighters on CAP (at the ship)..The rest are then free for escorting, but the computer also takes things into account like, time of day and if the planes already made flights earlier, or if any of the fighters are in a damaged state.
It is possible some of your pilots are casualties as well.
As mentioned above, it may also be a problem of your bombers out-ranging their own fighter escorts.

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 1:45:59 PM

chazz

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
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I thought that at first, then I reset the fighter's range to correspond to both the TBD and DB group ranges. Still no luck. I smoke the incoming Jap strikes but the bombers still go on unescorted.

I'm working with a save game and I've loaded and reloaded the same battle and still the same result.

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Thank you for your replies and advice!!

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 1:47:36 PM

chemkid

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Joined: 12/15/2012
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.

< Message edited by chemkid -- 4/25/2018 8:24:30 AM >

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 1:58:23 PM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Check the Air skill of the fighter group leader. My land-based sweeps as Japan notoriously failed to show up, because my leaders had their Air skill in the mid-30s.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 3/12/2015 2:58:42 PM >

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Post #: 6

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 2:33:52 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
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Welcome back,

Follow the advice already mentioned, and remember that reloading again and again the same turn will not change outcomes; try going back 2 or 3 turns and you might see a difference

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Post #: 7

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 2:50:23 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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You should not have any of your carrier fighters set to LRCAP. CAP only, the rest should then fly as escort for your bombers. You do not need to set them at the exact same altitude as your bombers. I like 17,000 feet to give me a height advantage over incoming enemy attacks. Your escort will fly and adjust accordingly. I generally set my CAP to 40-60% depending on the situation. The rest of the fighters should have no assigned setting and should be set at maximum range (they area only going to fly as far as your bombers anyways). It would really help us all if you would post a screenshot or two. Three carriers in 1942 might have coordination issues as well but not usually.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 3/12/2015 3:50:49 PM >

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 2:53:07 PM

chazz

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
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OK....facepalm....facepalm....

I now know where I went wrong. I was confusing the LR CAP with the ESCORTS. I now understand the difference.

Thanks for your time, gents.

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Thank you for your replies and advice!!

"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 2:57:40 PM

Anthropoid

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From: Secret Underground Lair
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Have to say, I'm a bit fuzzy on how "Escort" works too. If anyone could walk through a barebones description of how to set a fighter squadron and a bomber squadron so that the former is more likely to escort the latter as it goes to rain down death and destruction on the enemy, I'd appreciate it.

Definitely at one time I had perfect mastery of these mechanics in WiTP and WPO, probably even in WiTPAE during the brief period I played it after it came out.

But there have been so many intervening games in the years since . . . I think Supreme Ruler is what is messing up my memory. In that one, you actually specify "Escort THIS unit (air land or sea)" by selecting it after you click "Escort" mission for a fighter unit. Just fiddling around to get back into WiTPAE and train up for a PBEM against Malagant, I'm seeing it don't work thataway in WiTPAE

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 4:29:53 PM

chazz

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I figured that part out- ESCORT has your air group fly top cover for another task force- say for example you want CAP over an invasion force. Allocate LR CAP to whatever % you want, with the air grp set to ESCORT and then click on the target TF as the one you want covered by the LR CAP.

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Thank you for your replies and advice!!

"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos

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Post #: 11

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 4:38:12 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Have to say, I'm a bit fuzzy on how "Escort" works too. If anyone could walk through a barebones description of how to set a fighter squadron and a bomber squadron so that the former is more likely to escort the latter as it goes to rain down death and destruction on the enemy, I'd appreciate it.

Definitely at one time I had perfect mastery of these mechanics in WiTP and WPO, probably even in WiTPAE during the brief period I played it after it came out.

But there have been so many intervening games in the years since . . . I think Supreme Ruler is what is messing up my memory. In that one, you actually specify "Escort THIS unit (air land or sea)" by selecting it after you click "Escort" mission for a fighter unit. Just fiddling around to get back into WiTPAE and train up for a PBEM against Malagant, I'm seeing it don't work thataway in WiTPAE

Fighters set to do nothing, will fly escort for bombers. They should be at the same base, have a good leader, good morale and low fatigue and perhaps set at an altitude near the same as the bombers. Do not set them to any other activity including rest. The number if any that fly is determined by the AI. Escorts are at a disadvantage when faced with strong CAP and usually take a knocking

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 5:28:40 PM

Malagant

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Some good info can be found here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382494

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 5:34:24 PM

Trugrit

Posts: 947
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From: North Carolina
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Welcome back Chazz,

What Malagant said.

Also:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3219921

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Post #: 14

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 7:35:08 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Welcome back,

Follow the advice already mentioned, and remember that reloading again and again the same turn will not change outcomes; try going back 2 or 3 turns and you might see a difference

If he is playing the AI then reloading without making any changes will give the same results for the most part, but making any slight change anywhere before ending the turn WILL deliver differing results.

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 8:38:08 PM

Rising-Sun

Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
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Yeah that what got me pissed off few times in my grand campaign. Believe it was end of Jan 1942, I manage to get two fighter and two bomber groups in Kota Bharu, along with air division HQ (both are attach to it). So I have my bombers hitting ground targets one hex away from Singapore, bam no fight escorts and second day I double check to see if there mistake or not properly setups. So everything was setup the way it is, good morale and less than 10 fatigue and second day bombers took off without an escorts again. Plenty of supports and the weathers was favorable, in real life, the bomber groups would be nervous and wouldn't want to go in the front line without fighter escorts nearby. Two bomber group (Ki-21s) and two fighter groups (Ki-43s), so they both are army aircraft types. That base Kota Bharu had 30 CAP and those fighter groups has over 30 planes each, using drop tanks so it would be able to escort the bombers and back. Unfort, just complete failure.

There is one more thing that bother me, random delay for pilot transfers. Wish it was calculated based on number of hexes away to determine how long it would take to be transferred. That random doesn't feel right, had one pilot transfer in same location during training exercise and took him 7 days to get the next air group, same location lol.

That is it, no more wasting my time playing this! The game would have been great if they fix this escort thing, esp that is attach to same location, same HQs. I am not sure if you can mix naval and army planes, that can be delay at some points.

They can be assign CAP and escort duties though, I have seen this done before. Depending on morale and fatigue as well the leaders. I had good leaders on those groups as well HQs.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 3/13/2015 9:08:58 AM >

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/12/2015 11:46:21 PM

paradigmblue

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

That base Kota Bharu had 30 CAP in zero range

There's your problem right there, if your fighters are set to 0 range they can't leave the hex to escort the bombers because you've limited their range to 0. If your fighters were set to max range they will escort your bombers as long as those bombers don't outrange them. If you want to ensure your bombers are escorted all of the time, make sure that the bombers max range is lowered to match the max range of your fighters.

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Post #: 17

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 3:22:50 AM

MuguNiner

Posts: 234
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline

Greetings,

It is helpful to use screen shots. You could take a screen shot of your carrier fighter sqd. Pictures speak 1000 works. In one of my last posts I complained about my P38's getting beat up by zeros, and transports not moving. Several things were pointed out from the screen shots that I would not have brought up in words.

To take a screen shot:

Press Alt-PrtScn
Open Paint
Paste screen shot into the paste window Ctrl-V
You can then save the screen shot as a .gif to your desktop or favorite folder
Click "Click here to upload" to import your screen shot.
Check the box "Embed picture in post".

Then ask your question. Easy as Pi.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 3:51:04 AM

pthighs

Posts: 2
Joined: 1/22/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

This is practically a game-breaker for me.

The game insists upon sending my carrier bombers against Japanese carrier groups unescorted; I have tried adjusting the LR CAP and CAP %'s but still no luck.

My carrier fighters are set for ESCORT. at the same altitude as the DB's - 10000'.

It is May of '42, three CV's in the TF, with Bull Halsey in command.

I get the same result every time- all the fighters stay to protect the carrier and one or two (at most) accompany the strike wave. Needless to say my bombers are getting schwacked.

Is there some kind of secret to getting your fighters to go along on carrier strikes?

Another thing to keep in mind - three carriers is a lot to have in a single TF in 1942. You may well be suffering coordination penalties as a result that will exacerbate this problem. The limits per year are in the manual.

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Post #: 19

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 8:08:28 AM

Rising-Sun

Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

That base Kota Bharu had 30 CAP in zero range

There's your problem right there, if your fighters are set to 0 range they can't leave the hex to escort the bombers because you've limited their range to 0. If your fighters were set to max range they will escort your bombers as long as those bombers don't outrange them. If you want to ensure your bombers are escorted all of the time, make sure that the bombers max range is lowered to match the max range of your fighters.

Ah sorry I miss type that, was thinking of something else. Yes they range was align with bombers. Sorry for the wrong inputs here. It wasn't zero. I was thinking in another locations that was CAP at zero and got missed up with this locations. This game can be annoying and trying to keep track of everything. Was doing good until this kick in near Singapore. My Betties and Nells always get their escorts from the zeros and the zeros were CAP incase B-17s try to pound in Formosa.

Up North of Bangkok, I had 14 Ki-43-IIc and lost one plane within 30 days, they manage to shoot down almost 50 planes that flew from somewhere up near Rangoon. Was doing good down Singapore, then the bombers wouldn't take the escorts. Every Allied bombers that tried to attack my base, always has escorts.

< Message edited by RisingSun -- 3/13/2015 9:13:33 AM >

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 9:38:52 AM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

In addition to the 'too many CVs in one TF' prob, co-ordination can be adversely affected by altitude settings, & dividing CV fighter groups among both Escort & CAP missions can cause tactical probs.

- In any fighter group, the 'unassigned' %age is available for strike escort. Regardless of the group's altitude setting, the escorting fighters will accompany the strike aircraft at a top-cover altitude 2k' above the assigned strike-group altitude. Setting the escort fighters to a different altitude will result in co-ordination probs.

- Setting any 1 fighter group to a mixed mission (say, 30% CAP, 30% Rest, & 40% unassigned (available for escort) is a prob, b/c the group must be given a range to match the strikers, yet the CAP folks will share that range & possibly be out of interception range to protect their CVs. Far better to divide the available fighter groups among missions - assigning some to escort + Rest (at the correct alt & range), and others to CAP + Rest (at the preferred alt & range=0).

This will give best results for each mission, & make it easier to deal w/ group Fatigue. If a CAP group was unengaged, it'll be available w/ minimal Fatigue for strike escort the following day, while the previous day's strike escorts can be set to CAP + Rest for the following day at range=0, giving them a chance to reduce their Fatigue.

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Post #: 21

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 11:18:00 AM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Have to say, I'm a bit fuzzy on how "Escort" works too. If anyone could walk through a barebones description of how to set a fighter squadron and a bomber squadron so that the former is more likely to escort the latter as it goes to rain down death and destruction on the enemy, I'd appreciate it.

Definitely at one time I had perfect mastery of these mechanics in WiTP and WPO, probably even in WiTPAE during the brief period I played it after it came out.

But there have been so many intervening games in the years since . . . I think Supreme Ruler is what is messing up my memory. In that one, you actually specify "Escort THIS unit (air land or sea)" by selecting it after you click "Escort" mission for a fighter unit. Just fiddling around to get back into WiTPAE and train up for a PBEM against Malagant, I'm seeing it don't work thataway in WiTPAE

Fighters set to do nothing, will fly escort for bombers. They should be at the same base, have a good leader, good morale and low fatigue and perhaps set at an altitude near the same as the bombers. Do not set them to any other activity including rest. The number if any that fly is determined by the AI. Escorts are at a disadvantage when faced with strong CAP and usually take a knocking

That statement can be a bit misleading. Fighters set to do nothing do nothing. Fighters set to Escort with no percentage settings for secondary mission will fly 100% Escort (or at least the percentage of 100% that will fly that day).

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Post #: 22

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/13/2015 5:21:20 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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Thanks Hans :)

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/14/2015 10:40:59 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

That base Kota Bharu had 30 CAP in zero range

There's your problem right there, if your fighters are set to 0 range they can't leave the hex to escort the bombers because you've limited their range to 0. If your fighters were set to max range they will escort your bombers as long as those bombers don't outrange them. If you want to ensure your bombers are escorted all of the time, make sure that the bombers max range is lowered to match the max range of your fighters.

Ah sorry I miss type that, was thinking of something else. Yes they range was align with bombers. Sorry for the wrong inputs here. It wasn't zero. I was thinking in another locations that was CAP at zero and got missed up with this locations. This game can be annoying and trying to keep track of everything. Was doing good until this kick in near Singapore. My Betties and Nells always get their escorts from the zeros and the zeros were CAP incase B-17s try to pound in Formosa.

Up North of Bangkok, I had 14 Ki-43-IIc and lost one plane within 30 days, they manage to shoot down almost 50 planes that flew from somewhere up near Rangoon. Was doing good down Singapore, then the bombers wouldn't take the escorts. Every Allied bombers that tried to attack my base, always has escorts.

Weather, gotta check the weather. The only times I've had coordination problems with the Japanese early (and that's as far as I've gotten as yet) is when the weather in the base hex is bad. I guess the same could be said about the target hex also. As far as mixing army/navy A/C I've had no problems there either.

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/14/2015 10:43:53 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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Chazz, glad to see you back. Games' gotcha huh?

The 'vampire' thread was a real hoot though, lotsa laughs.

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Post #: 25

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/14/2015 10:47:03 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

In addition to the 'too many CVs in one TF' prob, co-ordination can be adversely affected by altitude settings, & dividing CV fighter groups among both Escort & CAP missions can cause tactical probs.

- In any fighter group, the 'unassigned' %age is available for strike escort. Regardless of the group's altitude setting, the escorting fighters will accompany the strike aircraft at a top-cover altitude 2k' above the assigned strike-group altitude. Setting the escort fighters to a different altitude will result in co-ordination probs.

- Setting any 1 fighter group to a mixed mission (say, 30% CAP, 30% Rest, & 40% unassigned (available for escort) is a prob, b/c the group must be given a range to match the strikers, yet the CAP folks will share that range & possibly be out of interception range to protect their CVs. Far better to divide the available fighter groups among missions - assigning some to escort + Rest (at the correct alt & range), and others to CAP + Rest (at the preferred alt & range=0).

This will give best results for each mission, & make it easier to deal w/ group Fatigue. If a CAP group was unengaged, it'll be available w/ minimal Fatigue for strike escort the following day, while the previous day's strike escorts can be set to CAP + Rest for the following day at range=0, giving them a chance to reduce their Fatigue.

Now this sounds very interesting, I'll have to try it.

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RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/20/2015 9:21:59 PM

chazz

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Chazz, glad to see you back. Games' gotcha huh? The 'vampire' thread was a real hoot though, lotsa laughs.

Yeah, except that I was being laughed AT. It felt like grade 3 recess.

Not very cool.

_____________________________

=================================
Thank you for your replies and advice!!

"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos

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Post #: 27

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/20/2015 9:22:34 PM

chazz

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/30/2014
Status: offline

So are my fighters supposed to be set to ESCORT or SWEEP?

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Thank you for your replies and advice!!

"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos

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Post #: 28

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/20/2015 10:16:03 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

So are my fighters supposed to be set to ESCORT or SWEEP?

escort

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Post #: 29

RE: Frustrating Carrier Strike Issue. No escorting fig... - 3/20/2015 11:39:57 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Chazz, glad to see you back. Games' gotcha huh? The 'vampire' thread was a real hoot though, lotsa laughs.

Yeah, except that I was being laughed AT. It felt like grade 3 recess.

Not very cool.

Sorry guy I didn't mean it that way. I'm sure I'll be on the hotseat with some silly thing I'm bound to do (based on my pasted history) at some point in the future. Besides IIRC correctly a lot of what was funny was after the thread went off topic. Again apologies.

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