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To qoute Bill Mauldin...

 
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To qoute Bill Mauldin... - 2/27/2003 6:09:16 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B][B]Are the efforts of the support units any less important than those of the combat troops, or for that matter are they any less dangerous. [/B]

Umm, yeah...that's why they're called REMFs.

I wouldnt say the contribution of support troops isn't important, but I wouldnt say it's as important or dangerous as the guy who is pulling the trigger... [/B][/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true member of "the Right Honorable Order of
'dem what has been shot at."

For WW II, I could see an exemption from REMF status for the
crews of the Merchant Marine in the Atlantic. Otherwise, those
nine guys behind the line may have contributed to the war effort,
but they also "latched onto" a lot of equipment meant for the infantry. Like winterized "shoe pacs" and "combat jackets".

REMF's are necessary to the US way of war because we try
to maintain a higher "standard of living" for men in combat than
anyone else---but it doesn't make 'em heroes. What it does do
is give me an idea for WitP. Something that would "level the playing field" a bit for the Japanese Side. Require American Units
to expend much more supply than the Japanese to increase
their efficiency/morale. They had been trained to expect so much
more. The absolute perfect example comes from the Pacific War.
As YORKTOWN steamed home damaged from the Coral Sea, she
was asked to submit a list of "vital repairs" that would have to
be made to restore her to combat readiness for Midway. Among
the "vital requirements".., replacement of the ice cream freezer!
Show me another "fighting service" in the entire history of the world that would put that item on the list and I'll eat Ernie King's
hat.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 61
- 3/2/2003 4:26:44 AM   
Snigbert

 

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Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline
[B]For WW II, I could see an exemption from REMF status for thecrews of the Merchant Marine in the Atlantic [/B]

I agree, I have an uncle who was in the Merchant Marines who had 3 ships sunk from underneath him during the war. However, he wasnt considered a Veteran by the US government until the 1980's, I believe.

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 62
"Saving ... - 3/10/2003 4:45:34 AM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
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From: Decatur, GA, USA
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"My impression was that the movie only covered the first few
minutes of the landing and the first attempts to get off the beaches; then jumped to D+One or Two when the order to look
for Ryan came down."
The movie represents the second wave. The first wave at Dog Green was 29th Division and was basically all KIA and WIA. IIRC there is one shot where you can see bodies on the beach before Hanks' wave hits. Even at Omaha there were variances in the loss at the first wave and this was the worst place.
I think the Omaha segment was the best war movie I have seen although I admit I didn't catch any flaw about the camera angle - I'll have to watch it again. The big flaw about Private Ryan is that it is basically 3 dissimilar movies with a contrived connection. The final segment is a "Last Stand at the Alamo" entirely at odds with the reality of the first segment and the middle segment is a rather good film essay on comradeship in war.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 63
Pop Quiz: Reference to The Duke in a Movie.. - 3/10/2003 10:29:45 PM   
IDrinkBeer

 

Posts: 365
Joined: 2/21/2003
From: Richmond, VA
Status: offline
Anybody care to guess what movie this is from:


Actor 1: "John Wayne was a fag."

Actor 2: "The hell he was!"

Actor 1: "He was, too, you boys. I installed two-way mirrors in his pad in Brentwood, and he come to the door in a dress."


I love strange movies. My favorite WWII movie has to be Kelly's Heroes. Donald Sutherland playing a Vietnam Era hippy in a WWII film was just great.

As far as I'm concerned, unless its a documentary, Hollywood doesn't have to be realistic at all. The problem occurs when they try to pass off some of the drek that they film as being a "true story".

_____________________________

IDB

"Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!"

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 64
Re: Pop Quiz: Reference to The Duke in a Movie.. - 3/10/2003 10:34:56 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by IDrinkBeer
[B]

I love strange movies. My favorite WWII movie has to be Kelly's Heroes. Donald Sutherland playing a Vietnam Era hippy in a WWII film was just great.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, DS was not a Vietnam era hippie. He was "beat"
The first beatnik's were all WW2 veterans who went to college on GI Bill after the war. (Well except for Ginsberg who was too young)

Howl (part I)
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving
hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry
fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the
starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the
supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the tops of
cities contemplating jazz,
who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels
staggering on tenement roofs illuminated,
who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkan-
sas and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of war,
who were expelled from the academies for crazy & publishing obscene odes
on the windows of the skull,
who cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burning their money in
wastebaskets and listening to the Terror through the wall,
who got busted in their pubic beards returning through Laredo with a belt
of marijuana for New York,
who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise Alley, death, or
purgatoried their torsos night after night
with dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and
endless balls,
incomparable blind streets of shuddering cloud and lightning in the mind
leaping toward poles of Canada & Paterson, illuminating all the mo-
tionless world of Time between,
Peyote solidities of halls, backyard green tree cemetery dawns, wine drunk-
enness over the rooftops, storefront boroughs of teahead joyride neon
blinking traffic light, sun and moon and tree vibrations in the roaring
winter dusks of Brooklyn, ashcan rantings and kind king light of
mind,
who chained themselves to subways for the endless ride from Battery to holy
Bronx on benzedrine until the noise of wheels and children brought
them down shuddering mouth-wracked and battered bleak of brain
all drained of brilliance in the drear light of Zoo,
who sank all night in submarine light of Bickford's floated out and sat
through the stale beer afternoon in desolate Fugazzi's, listening to the
crack of doom on the hydrogen jukebox,
who talked continuously seventy hours from park to pad to bar to Bellevue
to museum to the Brooklyn Bridge,
a lost battalion of platonic conversationalists jumping down the stoops off fire
escapes off windowsills of Empire State out of the moon,
yacketayakking screaming vomiting whispering facts and memories and
anecdotes and eyeball kicks and shocks of hospitals and jails and wars,
whole intellects disgorged in total recall for seven days and nights with
brilliant eyes, meat for the Synagogue cast on the pavement,
who vanished into nowhere Zen New Jersey leaving a trail of ambiguous
picture postcards of Atlantic City Hall,
suffering Eastern sweats and Tangerian bone-grindings and migraines of
China under junk-withdrawal in Newark's bleak furnished room,
who wandered around and around at midnight in the railroad yard wonder-
ing where to go, and went, leaving no broken hearts,
who lit cigarettes in boxcars boxcars boxcars racketing through snow toward
lonesome farms in grandfather night,
who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross telepathy and bop kabbalah
because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at their feet in Kansas,
who loned it through the streets of Idaho seeking visionary indian angels
who were visionary indian angels,
who thought they were only mad when Baltimore gleamed in supernatural
ecstasy,
who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse
of winter midnight streetlight smalltown rain,
who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or
soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America
and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa,
who disappeared into the volcanoes of Mexico leaving behind nothing but
the shadow of dungarees and the lava and ash of poetry scattered in
fireplace Chicago,
who reappeared on the West Coast investigating the FBI in beards and shorts
with big pacifist eyes sexy in their dark skin passing out incompre-
hensible leaflets,
who burned cigarette holes in their arms protesting the narcotic tobacco haze
of Capitalism,
who distributed Supercommunist pamphlets in Union Square weeping and
undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down, and
wailed down Wall, and the Staten Island ferry also wailed,
who broke down crying in white gymnasiums naked and trembling before
the machinery of other skeletons,
who bit detectives in the neck and shrieked with delight in policecars for
committing no crime but their own wild cooking pederasty and
intoxication,
who howled on their knees in the subway and were dragged off the roof
waving genitals and manuscripts,
who let themselves be ****** in the *** by saintly motorcyclists, and
screamed with joy,
who blew and were blown by those human seraphim, the sailors, caresses of
Atlantic and Caribbean love,
who balled in the morning in the evenings in rosegardens and the grass of
public parks and cemeteries scattering their semen freely to whom-
ever come who may,
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob behind
a partition in a Turkish Bath when the blond & naked angel came to
pierce them with a sword,
who lost their loveboys to the three old shrews of fate the one eyed shrew
of the heterosexual dollar the one eyed shrew that winks out of the
womb and the one eyed shrew that does nothing but sit on her ***
and snip the intellectual golden threads of the craftsman's loom.
who copulated ecstatic and insatiate with a bottle of beer a sweetheart a
package of cigarettes a candle and fell off the bed, and continued
along the floor and down the hall and ended fainting on the wall with
a vision of ultimate **** and come eluding the last gyzym of con-
sciousness,
who sweetened the snatches of a million girls trembling in the sunset, and
were red eyed in the morning but prepared to sweeten the snatch of
the sunrise, flashing buttocks under barns and naked in the lake,
who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C.,
secret hero of these poems, cocksman and Adonis of Denver--joy to
the memory of his innumerable lays of girls in empty lots & diner
backyards, moviehouses' rickety rows, on mountaintops in caves or
with gaunt waitresses in familiar roadside lonely petticoat upliftings
& especially secret gas-station solipsisms of johns, & hometown alleys
too,
who faded out in vast sordid movies, were shifted in dreams, woke on a
sudden Manhattan, and picked themselves up out of basements hung-
over with heartless Tokay and horrors of Third Avenue iron dreams
& stumbled to unemployment offices,
who walked all night with their shoes full of blood on the snowbank docks
waiting for a door in the East River to open to a room full of steam-
heat and opium,
who created great suicidal dramas on the apartment cliff-banks of the Hud-
son under the wartime blue floodlight of the moon & their heads shall
be crowned with laurel in oblivion,
who ate the lamb stew of the imagination or digested the crab at the muddy
bottom of the rivers of Bowery,
who wept at the romance of the streets with their pushcarts full of onions
and bad music,
who sat in boxes breathing in the darkness under the bridge, and rose up to
build harpsichords in their lofts,

who coughed on the sixth floor of Harlem crowned with flame under the
tubercular sky surrounded by orange crates of theology,
who scribbled all night rocking and rolling over lofty incantations which in
the yellow morning were stanzas of gibberish,
who cooked rotten animals lung heart feet tail borsht & tortillas dreaming
of the pure vegetable kingdom,
who plunged themselves under meat trucks looking for an egg,
who threw their watches off the roof to cast their ballot for Eternity outside
of Time, & alarm clocks fell on their heads every day for the next
decade,
who cut their wrists three times successively unsuccessfully, gave up and
were forced to open antique stores where they thought they were
growing old and cried,
who were burned alive in their innocent flannel suits on Madison Avenue
amid blasts of leaden verse & the tanked-up clatter of the iron regi-
ments of fashion & the nitroglycerine shrieks of the fairies of advertis-
ing & the mustard gas of sinister intelligent editors, or were run down
by the drunken taxicabs of Absolute Reality,
who jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge this actually happened and walked
away unknown and forgotten into the ghostly daze of Chinatown
soup alleyways & firetrucks, not even one free beer,
who sang out of their windows in despair, fell out of the subway window,
jumped in the filthy Passaic, leaped on negroes, cried all over the
street, danced on broken wineglasses barefoot smashed phonograph
records of nostalgic European 1930s German jazz finished the whis-
key and threw up groaning into the bloody toilet, moans in their ears
and the blast of colossal steamwhistles,
who barreled down the highways of the past journeying to the each other's
hotrod-Golgotha jail-solitude watch or Birmingham jazz incarnation,
who drove crosscountry seventytwo hours to find out if I had a vision or you
had a vision or he had a vision to find out Eternity,
who journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver
& waited in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in
Denver and finally went away to find out the Time, & now Denver
is lonesome for her heroes,
who fell on their knees in hopeless cathedrals praying for each other's salva-
tion and light and breasts, until the soul illuminated its hair for a
second,
who crashed through their minds in jail waiting for impossible criminals
with golden heads and the charm of reality in their hearts who sang
sweet blues to Alcatraz,
who retired to Mexico to cultivate a habit, or Rocky Mount to tender Buddha
or Tangiers to boys or Southern Pacific to the black locomotive or
Harvard to Narcissus to Woodlawn to the daisychain or grave,
who demanded sanity trials accusing the radio of hypnotism & were left with
their insanity & their hands & a hung jury,
who threw potato salad at CCNY lecturers on Dadaism and subsequently
presented themselves on the granite steps of the madhouse with
shaven heads and harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instanta-
neous lobotomy,
and who were given instead the concrete void of insulin Metrazol electricity
hydrotherapy psychotherapy occupational therapy pingpong & am-
nesia,
who in humorless protest overturned only one symbolic pingpong table,
resting briefly in catatonia,
returning years later truly bald except for a wig of blood, and tears and
fingers, to the visible madman doom of the wards of the madtowns
of the East,
Pilgrim State's Rockland's and Greystone's foetid halls, bickering with the
echoes of the soul, rocking and rolling in the midnight solitude-bench
dolmen-realms of love, dream of life a nightmare, bodies turned to
stone as heavy as the moon,
with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out of the
tenement window, and the last door closed at 4 a.m. and the last
telephone slammed at the wall in reply and the last furnished room
emptied down to the last piece of mental furniture, a yellow paper
rose twisted on a wire hanger in the closet, and even that imaginary,
nothing but a hopeful little bit of hallucination--
ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe, and now you're really in the
total animal soup of time--
and who therefore ran through the icy streets obsessed with a sudden flash
of the alchemy of the use of the ellipse the catalog the meter & the
vibrating plane,
who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images
juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual
images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of
consciousness together jumping with sensation of Pater Omnipotens
Aeterna Deus
to recreate the syntax and measure of poor human prose and stand before
you speechless and intelligent and shaking with shame, rejected yet
confessing out the soul to conform to the rhythm of thought in his
naked and endless head,
the madman bum and angel beat in Time, unknown, yet putting down here
what might be left to say in time come after death,
and rose reincarnate in the ghostly clothes of jazz in the goldhorn shadow
of the band and blew the suffering of America's naked mind for love
into an eli eli lamma lamma sabacthani saxophone cry that shivered
the cities down to the last radio
with the absolute heart of the poem of life butchered out of their own bodies
good to eat a thousand years.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 65
Re: "Saving ... - 3/10/2003 11:18:50 PM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wpurdom
[B]"My impression was that the movie only covered the first few
minutes of the landing and the first attempts to get off the beaches; then jumped to D+One or Two when the order to look
for Ryan came down."
The movie represents the second wave. The first wave at Dog Green was 29th Division and was basically all KIA and WIA. IIRC there is one shot where you can see bodies on the beach before Hanks' wave hits. Even at Omaha there were variances in the loss at the first wave and this was the worst place.
I think the Omaha segment was the best war movie I have seen although I admit I didn't catch any flaw about the camera angle - I'll have to watch it again. The big flaw about Private Ryan is that it is basically 3 dissimilar movies with a contrived connection. The final segment is a "Last Stand at the Alamo" entirely at odds with the reality of the first segment and the middle segment is a rather good film essay on comradeship in war. [/B][/QUOTE]

I worked for a guy who was in the 29th at Omaha. He said he was the only man in his boat who actually got on the beach unwounded. In the process he lost his rifle, helmet, and most of his equipment. "Here I was in the greatest battle of all time and I might as well have showed up naked." He said he climbed into a hole and prayed that he wouldn't be taken prisoner, he was Jewish. Needless to say he was reinforced, given a rifle and a helmet, and got shot in the shin when he took his first step out of that hole. Tough luck.

_____________________________

SF3C B. B. New USS North Carolina BB-55 - Permission is granted to go ashore for the last shore leave. (1926-2003)

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 66
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