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When to activate Axis Minors - 3/25/2015 7:25:32 AM   
Larry Smith

 

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One of the tricks to deciding when to activate the Axis minors [Finland, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria and Siam] is what you get for their forces. Remember, for each one that gets activated, you Germany gets one less resource from Russia. At the start of the game, Germany had more factories than resources, so they don;t need more factories - they need resources. You need to balance what you will get with what you will lose. For example, if you decided to declare war on Yugoslavia in 1939, and thus activated Hungary in order to get a wider front from which to attack Yugoslavia, you lose one resource - you were already getting the Hungarian resource, so that doesn't make up for the loss - but if you conquer Yugoslavia quickly enough, and advance far enough [good luck with that in the time you'd have, unless you weakened your assault on Poland for this], you would gain two resources, for a net gain of 1.5 BP [which may or may not round up, depending on how many PP you were already getting before factoring in the 0.75 modifier]. Over the course of two game turns, that is a net gain of 2 to 4 BP, depending on how things rounded up for you.
Here's the rub, though, you lose the free Hungarian FTR and it's pilot, which means a loss of 4 BP. The FTR isn't all that strong, but it is a FTR, and more importantly, is a unit to contribute to the overall Hungarian unit count. For me, the pilot is much more useful, since I just send the FTR to reserve in Mar/Apr 1940 and bring the pilot back in a much better German unit in the May/June turn.

And that's not even considering the possible losses you might have incurred conquering Yugoslavia [losses need to be replaced, and that costs BP]. From a mathematical point of view, that is a target best left for later. The common reason for DOW on Yugoslavia in 1939 is to later activate Rumania and prevent the Russians making a claim on Bessarabia [and a wise Russian player will see it coming, and make the claim ASAP]. Rumania is easily protected - just allow the Russian claim. The Russian can't DOW on Rumania until they make the claim, and if it is allowed, they can't DOW on Rumania again until they are at war with Germany. The same goes for Finland. The only reason to disallow the claim is if the Russian player was stupid, and made the claim with nothing substantial to threaten Rumania with [or to exploit the potential for bad weather in Finland, and make the Russian suffer a bit]. Otherwise, there is no reason to risk either Minor by refusing the claim. The effects seem to be the same, either way, since to enforce peace you are allowing the claim. There used to be a rule, that if no MP unit was left inside an unconquered minor it was at war with, then the minor had won that little war, and would again come to peace, but that seems to have been done away with. Rumania is best left for 1940 - you get the HQ for free that way - or even till 1941, as I believe there is another free unit for that year. As I said earlier, Germany does not need the factory in Bucharest yet - any excess resources after the fall of France [assuming that went as usual] should be used to allow for stockpiling oil, and also to boost Italian production [if they are in it].

As for Finland, don't activate it post-war/border claim until Jan/Feb 1940, since then you get the full Finn air force, and can send all four to reserve in Mar/April 1940, for four free pilots. You also get a free Mot corps, and an extra Ski unit. That all easily outweighs the one or two BP you'd get from activating Finland in 1939. On the downside, any damaged Finnish ships, or disrupted oil-dependent units [the HQ] show up disrupted if you never reorganized them [though that may be if they were that way the previous turn].

Activating Bulgaria prior to 1941 is also inadvisable, as you lose out on the free LND and another pilot, and though the Russian resource you lose is replaced by the Bulgarian one. The only reason to activate Bulgaria prior to 1941 is if you needed access to their territory, or desperately needed their units to for anti-partisan garrison duty.

As for Siam, 1940 is the year to go. Activate Siam in 1939 and the Japanese will have to finish the Siamese navy themselves, instead of getting both counters for free, and immediately upon activation. But if you dither, and wait till 1941, those ships are lost [the Siamese got frisky with the French garrison in Indochina, and both ships were lost]. They aren't all that great, but they will do for convoy escorts.

Now if only I were patient enough to practice what I preach! In my solitaire games, I usually activate Siam just to stop the Malay resourced from using the nearby Siamese minor port, which means they're unnecessarily using the French convoy in the South China Sea, and thus denying the French the Hanoi resource! {I'm about ready to mod the map to cut that rail line and stop that nonsense!}

Anyway, I hope this helps new players with deciding when to activate their minors.

< Message edited by Larry Smith -- 3/25/2015 8:26:00 AM >
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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/25/2015 7:39:32 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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Don't forget the flip side of that calculation. Even if you don't wind up changing Germany's resource stock (say, by aligning Bulgaria; the resource the Bulgarians give you cancels out the one you lose from the Soviets), aligning minors that let the Soviets give you fewer resources increases Soviet production. Especially since, all other things being equal, low unit density helps the attacker in Russia: it's often more important to starve the Soviets than it is to make sure there are more German units kicking around.

And attacking the Yugoslavs on the first turn is reasonably common, and yeah, you don't hit Poland with everything, but you don't really need to smash Poland with everything you've got, they're not that tough. Taking on both minors at once should be do-able, especially if you align Rumania to pre-empt Bessarabia, and open a second front there.


But yes, all other things being equal, you often want to align your minors later. Especially Finland, I often don't activate them until the big war with Russia has started. Forget the BPs, what I like is that the Finns exist in some sort of Schrödinger catbox until you align them; you can set them up anywhere in Finland, but once they're set up, they have to move normally. If Murmansk looks lightly defended, maybe I'll stick Mannerheim up in Petsamo to direct an attack there, but if it's too tough to crack, I'll put him south, maybe even ship him into Estonia once I've taken the Baltics to help support the main advance. That extra fluidity is often worth a few BPs, and discarding it too soon is a mistake.


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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/25/2015 7:55:14 AM   
Larry Smith

 

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I just checked the units in game, and the Rumanians do get a Mot in 1941, so that's another freebie to consider. Activating them in 1941 should allow enough time to move units there in Jan/Feb, and get them into position during Mar/Apr, and even the first impulse of May/Jun [usually I try to get the most powerful force I can into that salient above Bialystok to smash through and cut Russian supply lines, but that means sacrificing that first impulse or the ZOC's will prevent that].

On another note, the four Finnish aircraft I mentioned... the Units in Game list has two marked as {NB}. Usually I play the Global scenario, but I was checking through the Missed the Bus one I used to illustrate that quirk with Japanese ENG allowing the Chinese to repair a captured, destroyed factory in a Japanese held city. Maybe the Finnish TOE changes post-Winter War - the Finnish convoys never show up after, even if Russia doesn't get in a port strike on the Finn fleet - but if they are marked as {NB}, they shouldn't be showing up on map.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/25/2015 8:49:59 PM   
paulderynck


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Two of the Finn planes are not set-up even if they are the right year. It's in the Scenario book somewhere.

It's due to all the different kits that were made available beyond the "Classic" version and all minors have planes in that category.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/25/2015 9:51:46 PM >


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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/25/2015 11:00:44 PM   
Larry Smith

 

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What I was saying is that lately those two have been turning up as part of the 1940 Finnish forces, whenever I activated Finland post-Winter War. Belatedly, I remembered that there were two {NB} planes in the Finnish OOB. I'll have to start another Global campaign to see if it wasn't just a quirk at the time, since I had modded a few things myself - though I hadn't touched any of the minor forces, or anything to do with Finland for that matter. If I can recreate the bug, I'll post a save, otherwise, it may have just been something I caused myself.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/30/2015 9:00:45 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Two of the Finn planes are not set-up even if they are the right year. It's in the Scenario book somewhere.

It's due to all the different kits that were made available beyond the "Classic" version and all minors have planes in that category.

Can you, please, clarify what number of aircraft Finland is supposed to have and how many of them are "no-builds"?





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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/31/2015 12:32:58 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Two of the Finn planes are not set-up even if they are the right year. It's in the Scenario book somewhere.

It's due to all the different kits that were made available beyond the "Classic" version and all minors have planes in that category.

Can you, please, clarify what number of aircraft Finland is supposed to have and how many of them are "no-builds"?


They don't get the two Planes in Flames planes, only the WiF planes. The ones they don't get are shown below with an asterisk plus you can see the 'P' in the upper right corner. Upon activation if the year is prior or the current year, then the PiF planes go into the German force pool if Germany chooses to use the Finn force pool.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/31/2015 1:33:52 AM >


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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/31/2015 4:53:58 AM   
Larry Smith

 

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I have been trying to complete a contract so I haven't gotten around to trying another game with no mods, and see if that happens again. I realize that something was up, but I have yet to discern whether I caused the issue, or whether it might be a bug. Thanks for the info.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 3/31/2015 9:11:45 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Two of the Finn planes are not set-up even if they are the right year. It's in the Scenario book somewhere.

It's due to all the different kits that were made available beyond the "Classic" version and all minors have planes in that category.

Can you, please, clarify what number of aircraft Finland is supposed to have and how many of them are "no-builds"?


They don't get the two Planes in Flames planes, only the WiF planes. The ones they don't get are shown below with an asterisk plus you can see the 'P' in the upper right corner. Upon activation if the year is prior or the current year, then the PiF planes go into the German force pool if Germany chooses to use the Finn force pool.




Thank you.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 4/3/2015 2:55:19 PM   
brian brian

 

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Going back to the original post, I think there is much more to the decision of activating Axis Minors than managing their force pools.

A standard option in strategy has been called the "No Bessarabia". Some people find this terribly gamey but most players of the game move on from that idea as it is game to explore alternatives, not a game to force you to re-enact history every time. What if Hitler had moved against Serb nationalists simultaneously with drawing a red line on his Danzig Corridor demands in the fall of 1939? He was born in Austria originally after all, and Germany had "Volksdeutsch" claims elsewhere iirc. I think he held the cards in the Nazi-Soviet Pact negotiations and could have dictated the terms differently. Stalin was still wobbly after the purges and wanted time for the Germans and the West to weaken each other more than he wanted Moldavia/Bukovina/Bessarabia, I think.

Anyhow, if you activate Rumania in this way on the first turn, you don't get the Rumanian HQ for free, costing you 5 BPs. I would say that there is much more to this game than adding up BP costs. Starting Barbarossa from the Bessarabia hex-row basically takes the Odessa factory away from the Russians until probably some point in 1944. How many Axis BPs is that worth?

Also if the Germans attack Slovenia and Croatia in the fall of 1939, they are under no obligation to activate Hungary just because they can. They already get the resource from the place. Adding the factory there is nice, yes, but activating Hungary also allows the Russians to keep a resource until Barbarossa 10 turns later, which probably means 2 more infantry class units for them - just so Germany can add a Pilot in 1940? Also the Hungarian factory will likely use up a resource you may wish to send to the Italian navy instead (Oil rule in play). The Rumanians can invade Serbia with partial effectiveness on their own; the Yugoslavians best defensive terrain is around Zagreb, not Belgrade (unless Hungary comes in). Oh what a tangled web is woven in the Balkans, every time.

It was correctly pointed out that the most valuable strategic weapon re: Finland is that their units are not on the map until they are activated. Once they all deploy for truly gamey use in France or are just simply set up on the Leningrad front the Russians can reduce their defense of the Murmansk rail line correspondingly. None of that has anything to do with the BP calculations of when their force pool is added to the Axis side.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 4/6/2015 7:58:39 PM   
Larry Smith

 

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If you invade Yugoslavia just to activate Rumania before the Soviets can act, then you'll be attacking along a narrow front that the Yugo's could defend along, and will have to activate Hungary anyway just to bypass the Yugo's. And you'll lose the surprise impulse effects. The Rumanians aren't strong enough to take Belgrade on their own. And if the Allies end the turn quickly, you may end up with more Yugo units showing up the next turn. Or you could depend on the Yugo controller doing something "Gamey" like stacking everything they get in Zagreb and Belgrade, rather than along the threatened borders as the real Yugoslav's would have done.
I was making suggestions for new players who might not know what to do. All the Veterans have their favorite strategies, certainly, but new players should be encouraged to develop their own.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 4/7/2015 2:38:40 PM   
brian brian

 

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Another tangent to picking the alignment date is the US Entry system. The Entry chits are at their highest values in 1939 (and later in the war), but are much lower in 1940. If the Axis run around aligning everything they can the first two turns, they might get punished by the US drawing a "5" chit for one of the alignments.

This is another good reason to leave Hungary neutral on the first two turns if you invade Yugoslavia. Rumania can't Assault Belgrade on it's own, but it can easily take the resource hexes and a transport path for them south through Macedonia. Of if the Yugoslavians try to block that, the Rumanians can at least keep the resources from moving to the Yugoslavian factories and out of the Allied production total. The Germans can just plod through the country with 4 movement-point INF and take Belgrade as late as Sep/Oct 40 with no worries.

But then the dastardly Allies could reinforce the country? Let them. If the Italians can't block Allied supply in the Italian Coast sea zone they might as well curl up in a ball and wait this war out.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 7/28/2015 6:46:48 AM   
tom730_slith

 

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Rather than invade Yugoslavia I sometimes prefer to align the neutrals and send a force down to Bulgaria for an invasion of Greece as soon as weather permits in early 1940. A victory gains the Axis Yugoslavia as an ally and until Greece is conquered puts a strain on Great Britain - reinforce the Greeks or keep forces in Egypt as strong as possible? Either way it is good for the Axis, unless somehow the Brits have enough ground units to hold both areas for a long time, which isn't likely.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 7/28/2015 7:47:30 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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I agree with tom730. Our group always aligns Yugo...the vast majority of the time by Italy preparing the required units and invading through the Aegean as well as from Albania. This usually happens in 1941, but idealy N/D'40 (because of the 1940 US chit values). However, boardgame WiF has advance building, and I'm not sure MWiF has that feature. Bulgaria is normally invaded by the USSR (Bulgarian gambit) early on and prior to USSR demands on Bessarabia...Romania would have to fight a two front war if it chooses to fight...which it normally does not. The Bulgarian gambit is an answer to an Italian invasion of Greece to align Yugo...it can force the issue before Italy is ready and capable.

As the Axis, you want to have as many minor country units as possible for anti-partisan duty...and even to dissuade an early CW invasion somewhere on the mainland. Germany never has enough units if a Barbarossa is going on.

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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 7/28/2015 9:10:08 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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At least when I try that whole Greek gambit, I usually aim to do it in M/J or J/A 40. Forget USE, I definitely want to do it in 40 to avoid having to face that 5-4 MTN the Greeks get in 41, and I at least like the longer turns for a project like this.


However, the biggest problem I find is that the Eastern Med is often far from secure, and if the CW is willing to stick its neck out a little, they can really make life hard for you in that sea zone. Pulling off an invasion like that isn't always feasible, so I try the double route from Albania and Bulgaria and rely on 4 movement German infantry to do the flanking maneuver.

Even then though, a Greek Campaign is far from a sure thing, I've seen a couple of them turn into disasterss, with the Greeks pulling into a perimeter around Athens that simply cannot be breached.


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RE: When to activate Axis Minors - 7/29/2015 1:52:27 AM   
tom730_slith

 

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I was planning to go with a few strong German units including a Hdqtrs unit and a Bomber unit as soon as favorably weather occurred. However it makes much more sense to add an Italian invasion, but the Italians will have to at least bloody the CW fleet stationed in Egypt first. A challenge at this point since the Italians have done an awesome job of disrupting first the French and later the CW navies in the Western Med with an eye toward Gibraltar! By only declaring against the French the Italians had some time fighting only their fleet before Churchill finally risked US reaction and declared. By that time the French had gotten a pretty good black eye and the Italians enjoyed some very favorable "rolls" against the CW Western Med fleet, causing some damage and ultimately resulting in a voluntary retreat to preserve the fleet. This, along with a combination ground offensive and naval invasion in Tunisia & Algeria has set the Italians up with some potentially dangerous but VERY tempting options!

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