My battle with air support logistics

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West >> The War Room >> My battle with air support logistics

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My battle with air support logistics - 4/2/2015 5:47:40 PM

Seminole

Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline

I would like to invite the devs (and anyone else) interested in helping expand understanding of a game element that is in my opinion critical to WA success - getting new airbases up and ready.

As my ongoing server games turned stale (no resignation, turns just quit coming back) I've take up three more. One of those is a grand campaign as the Germans with the EF box locked, the Westwall scenario as Germany, and the last is another go at the Battleground Italy scenario as the WA.

No turns back yet in the grand campaign, but I intend to follow the Air Support/manpower situation closely in that one from the start since since my understanding has grown.

This thread is really going to cover my battle with personnel office responsible for staffing Allied airbases with Air Support crews so the planes can stay in the air during the Battleground Italy scenario.

We pick up the battle on turn 5 (I'll produce a full AAR later, this will just cover my Air Support issues), wherein the WA have made a successful surprise landing at The Heel. 4 TF's are ashore, establishing 4 brand new level 2 airfields. A regiment of the 82nd Airborne also seizes the airbase at Lecce.

This first turn (6), while troops are being unloaded, I send a single squadron of Kittyhawks to each of the 5 new airbases, set their TOE Max at 99% and set their priority to 4.
On Sicily I set the airbase priority to 3, and TOE Max is Auto.
On Africa and the islands (south of Sicily) I set the priority to 2, and TOE Max is Auto

The first 5 airbases captured/created on The Heel are all under USA control.

When I get back turn 7 I see that my 5 airbases on The Heel have received ZERO Air Support personnel. None, nada, zip.

Taking into account what I just learned this morning from Pavel's post in Speedy's AAR:

quote:

First of all air bases do not follow normal replacement routines as usual units, they get all replacement during aviation support phase, which means:
- There will be no messaged in supply log if something is missing.
- Since it happens before production it is important what is the size of the pools before logistics.
As it expected in BI British manpower pool is limiting factor, but there is another issue - air bases try to pull the whole chunk of required aviation support. I.e. if you set it to 100% - 250 element x 10 men = 2500 men. In the save provided British pool is just below 2000. In such a case it will get none. So it may get at least something if TOE is set to lower value or on AUTO if some AC are in.

What does this mean for The Heel? Apparently the Americans lacked the requisite manpower to get any of the bases to 99% TOE, so...

Dammit!
My response was to compile a spreadsheet of my airbases that had, or needed, Air Support and to monitor the pools and figure out what the hell is happening. I really wish the Air Support and Air Support Need values were in the CR (hint, hint!), as they're the most important values at an airfield. Going into each base to reference these values is a pain, but at least with BG Italy I don't have too many to monitor...

I decided, 'F-it, I'm sending Tactical Air to The Heel'
So turn 7 sees a massive airbase re-organization. I consolidate my airbases in Africa and Sicily to free up manpower and air support for my new bases in The Heel, and those I seek to establish on Corsica.

Air group positions:

Post #: 1

RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/2/2015 6:29:24 PM

Seminole

Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline

I now do the real fun part of gathering data on my existing airbases (only those that currently have Air Support present, or needed).

For each airbase I gather TOE, TOE Max setting, HHQ, Air Support, Air Support Need, and supply status. I also calculate each airbases % of Air Support need met, as well as the surplus/deficit of Air Support squads.

Additionally I gather and break down the production pool info for American and British Manpower and Air Support squads.

Here are the aggregates, and their change from turn 7 to turn 8:

Some explanation of the above:

The American deficit overall in the the theater at 'active' airbases (by which I mean the airbase currently has aircraft assigned) was -1933 Air Support squads after the re-organization.
Because I had abandoned many airfields in Africa and Sicily I had 1701 'surplus' Air Support squads, leading to a net negative of -232 American Air Support on map in the Med.

I had mistakenly left Trapani (American airbase in Sicily) at TOE Max 99, and supply priority 0 (I had zeroed every airbase in the CR and failed to put this base at 2 when I checked the Air Support numbers).
All of the 'abandoned' airfields (British and American) emptied their Air Support in a single turn (I think the manual suggests it does this in steps, but if memory serves a patch changed it to all at once, probably to assist with the problem I'm experiencing).
Problem is, it appears most of those Air Support squads went back to the pools instead of to the new airbases. Look at the American manpower numbers.
This means the Americans see their 'on map' Air Support squad deficit actually has GROWN by over 1000 to -1382 from turn 7 to turn 8.

For the Brits, because they control so few airbases at this point, and because they enjoyed some consolidation, they've seen their 'active' airbase Air Support deficit turned into a surplus. Only Hani, Protville, Victoria, and Valletta are British. Needs are met everywhere but Protville, which closed a -189 deficit to just -5, which is negligible.

I intend to use the Brits and the night fighter squadrons currently at Trapani to begin fleshing out Corsican bases (if the 1st Airborne can help the Italians finish liberating the island this week).
I will set these bases to priority 4, with Max TOE at Auto.

Maybe the devil is in the order of operations, but it is just wrong that thousands of trained ground crews are getting sent back to the manpower pools instead of to existing air bases desperate for their services. Even worse, if those manpower get absorbed elsewhere then you're screwed re-staffing your airbases.
The 'all or nothing' air support replacement engine rule seems busted on its face. I had all of my airbases in The Heel set on Auto, but only two of them got any Air Support squads.
I think this mechanic should work similar to the replacement mechanic where everyone on that priority tier gets a 'bite at the apple' to fill some of their need from what is available.

I'll get to playing the turn itself later today and send the turn to my opponent ASAP. If someone wants to grab a save off the server, offer advice or something else to keep an eye on, any input is appreciated.

Edited to add the .xls if someone feels like looking further into my numbers, or just wants to crib the tool I made to watch this stuff.

P.S. Digging into all this stuff isn't really fun, my main goal is to get the Air Support issue where it belongs in the background, but I can't when it is constantly getting in my face and grounding my aircraft.

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< Message edited by Seminole -- 4/2/2015 7:33:34 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/2/2015 9:25:44 PM

moss

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

Seminole,

Have you seen any of the "captured" airfields get AAA reinforcements/replacements? (FlAK for you Germans out there.)

Playing the campaign, I have seen none of the bases in Sicily get AAA, even a couple of months into the game (17 odd turns, I reckon, so say 14 turns for the "oldest captured"). I really didn't notice it when I played the Husky scenario several times. I hope this is not an issue, because it would make German attacks on forward airbases much less costly (especially for the FB's).

Moss.

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RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/2/2015 11:02:09 PM

LiquidSky

Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
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I did a lot of bombing of airfields in Corsica and southern Italy...and never really noticed any flak damage to my fine German planes. I did, however, notice a fair number of sneaky air to air losses from the dastardly british, even though we were flying at night so as not to disturb their tea time.

_____________________________

�My logisticians are a humorless lot � they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.� � Alexander the Great

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Post #: 4

RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/2/2015 11:47:31 PM

moss

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Thanks LiquidSky, I am going to try a MeVsMe and take a base and turn down replacements for everything else and see how long it takes to get AAA.

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RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/3/2015 11:31:50 AM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

Good point Moss. Even though most of my US Airbases on Sicily receive Av Support/support eventually I've not seen 1 x AA gun sent ever to date

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RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/3/2015 12:41:44 PM

Helpless

Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
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There is a know issue with air base squad replacement. National pool conversion is missing so it checks for the AM/CW manpower pools instead of US/BR.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/3/2015 3:06:45 PM

bradcue

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/4/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

I did a lot of bombing of airfields in Corsica and southern Italy...and never really noticed any flak damage to my fine German planes. I did, however, notice a fair number of sneaky air to air losses from the dastardly british, even though we were flying at night so as not to disturb their tea time.

I can confirm this problem; I don't see any flak guns at Allies airfields, even ones with TOE's over 100%. Not an issue if the Germans leave you alone, but this is one reason AF bombing works so well for the Luftwaffe

Probably same issue pavel indicated

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RE: My battle with air support logistics - 4/3/2015 10:32:25 PM

moss

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Joined: 12/2/2006
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OK, thanks for the info Pavel.

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Post #: 9