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Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 7:35:13 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		I got pretty much fed up with the vanilla scenario of Battleground Italy for a few reasons, firstly I read the official history of the campaign, secondly the more *historical* production model can't cope with the losses in game in this scenario, thirdly you dont get enough aircraft in the scenario. Aircraft one understands is the fun stuff that differentiates the sophisticated war in the West with the counter shove in the East.

To begin with I added all the squadrons I could find that were involved in Husky and the general area, mainly maritime patrol and strike squadrons. I also took the liberty of increasing the aircraft pools to cope with the combat model in a thoroughly unscientific way and then canceled the withdrawl of the USAAF strategic airgroups. Strategic airgroups equate to fun. I also guessed an increase in pilot pools to cope with the slighty savage loss model. I also added an air HQ for the simple reason the editor lets you and its there to muck about with. This became the Airwar mod for the Battleground Italy scenario. The principle idea was to give me toys to play with and have something resembling the complete supremacy the allies enjoyed in the air that vanilla scenario just does not give you.

I was quite pleased with the way it played (until the latest patch) but I wanted to make the idea slightly more playable so I took the herectical step of rounding the Squadrons up into Wings, All the nations are still there Canadians, Greeks, Free French, South Africans and the Aussies and I was quite pleased that when the grand total of aircraft is much the same as the more historical Air War mod after my instinctive groupings. Though unfortunately the Albermarle and Swordfish did not make the cut. The result is the Big Wing Mod. The only other minor change are *alot* of enlarged runways :D and adding reserve planes to the Wings out of pure curiosity.

So Ill give this a whirl and see how it plays




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 7:39:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Tactical Airforce & Coastal Airforce





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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 7:44:40 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		XII & Middle East Command




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 8:49:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Turn 1

One of the reasons why I started editing this scenario is everytime the Devs patch it, Battleground Italy suffers. I created the patrol aircraft to free my bombers from the abstract foe and with each patch you need more and more patrol aircraft. I'm in an arms race with the Devs. :D The previous patch I was in the ascendancy and had the game playing well but this patch forces you to use all your aircraft yes thats all those extra wings to make sure the 8th army in Sicily gets supply. The Kitchen Sink is literally thrown at an abstract mechanic.

Im not really keen the way Naval Interdiction it emasculates one of the best maritime strike aircraft in history and turns the Beaufighter the *Ten gun terror* and *Whispering Death* into fluffy the sheep. I like the Ju88, great plane, Crete and throughout 1942 but come 43 its grandad at the teen disco. Yet in Husky with this patch a few can disrupt the supply of the entire 8th army unless you throw that kitchen sink at it. When you throw that sink at it there are no toys to do anything else with






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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 8:57:08 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		The underwhelming result of 4000 aircraft and Mines, rockets, torpedoes, 500lbs 250lbs




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 9:41:32 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Meanwhile 4 aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL4_z3kWa3s

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 10:27:53 PM   
Smirfy

 

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I'm finding as Pavel says putting a low number like 40% into new airbases show far is getting air support to bite. The Wings I must say I prefer to fapping about with squadrons




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/3/2015 11:03:25 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		57th Fighter Group "First in the blue" rack up an impressive score. R Reynolds the highest scoring Allied ace in the theatre




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 7:08:02 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		Preparing for the Catania bug-out




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 9:20:40 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting mod. Curious to see how it would play out with the latest adjustments I did based on the saves you sent.



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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 11:20:46 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks, I am coming to the conclusion Wings is the way to go. The standard games OOB never survives past the first turn as every AAR states so ithat makes the historical squadron argument somewhat void.. Though I am only a few turns in it is infinitely more playable and practical with Wings

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 11:31:27 AM   
Helpless


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Status: offline 		Good point. The only problem that Wing may not fit into level 1 AF, i.e. it may be getting overload penalties.

Btw, don't forget to resupply air bases once you increase or change plane count.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 11:47:19 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		A fighter wing seems to fit, but I had to enlarge a lot of runways in Tunisia.. Since playing about with the editor. I have discovered that you have forgotten something or could make something better once you start playing :D.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 1:58:23 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		If you send me the changes I'll fire in a new game

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 2:26:41 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

The underwhelming result of 4000 aircraft and Mines, rockets, torpedoes, 500lbs 250lbs


It would be illustrative to see your actual ADs and assignments. I get good results with just two B-24 groups and a few B-25 groups.

Scenario seems pretty easy for the WA with the existing OoB, all those aircraft should make it a cakewalk.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 2:49:24 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		It's a cake walk anyway, it's just it's absolutely no fun that is the idea of the Mod to make it fun. I'm more into the experience than winning. I use the extra planes to try differing things.. You can play the scenario at your own speed which is quite relaxing, you also have planes left in the end game and ones of the correct era The side effect is you can concentrate on *feel* and have some escapism, for competition. I play sport.

I also wanted to improve my Gameplay experience and like I say it plays better with both mods especially I believe with the wings. For match play yes it would probably be. unbalanced.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 4:29:56 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
It's a cake walk anyway, it's just it's absolutely no fun that is the idea of the Mod to make it fun.


Fun is subjective, and I didn't intend to imply you're not finding a way to have fun.

quote:

I'm more into the experience than winning.


I wish there were more folks like that. In my experience so far people stop playing when things look like they're going south. I will say my current BGI opponent continues to send turns even though he's in a world of hurt. To me, even on the other side, it's interesting to see how things will go.

quote:

I use the extra planes to try differing things..


Understand, but I'm still curious about your AD setup details.
The current OoB does force you to make choices and fewer aircraft emphasize the importance of those choices.
The Luftwaffe gets withdrawn for the most part after a month anyway.

quote:

You can play the scenario at your own speed which is quite relaxing,


That's why fun is so subjective. I'm playing 'hell bent for leather' so I can get as far as I can before he can get set, and to constantly keep him off balance.
Relaxing and war aren't things I associate. :)

quote:

you also have planes left in the end game and ones of the correct era


Haven't had a game go to the end, but my aircraft OoB have held relatively stable (not counting the LB withdrawals). In my current game it has been growing in spite of ready aircraft tanking by over a thousand while I figure out how the air support replacement engine works.
Did you increase the initial pools and production too?

quote:

For match play yes it would probably be. unbalanced.


I haven't had a game go to the end to judge the balance of the scoring system in the scenario, but I think the scenario already challenges the Axis to accomplish more with less. Allies just have to figure out how to throw their weight around. Fun part in the game is that what is required to do that depends on how your opponent chooses to fight.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 6:25:54 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		I increased the pools not the production as Battleground Italy is quirky with the 20% limit, Pools is simple






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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/4/2015 6:38:53 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		As you say all things are subjective, my design and play philosophy probably summed up by the malta air superiorty mission I know exactly where the AI is going to hit and could easily have put that box where the AI would be but that would not be fair I could have also moved one of either the Malta air Command or Middle East Command naval patrol boxes to that area. Again hardly realistic. One advantage extra aircraft get you is you dont always have to use them. But you would think tactical air strategic air and the purpose built (by me) Coastal airforce would be enough




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 7:16:18 AM   
Seminole


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Turn 6 of Battle Ground Italy, single naval patrol AD, size one (centered on the 6 value)
2x B-24 groups
2(4?)x B-25 groups (can't recall, sometimes the B-25s were rested after going on railyard missions)
1x P-38 group (escort)

Are you running naval ADs, or just counting on automatic naval patrol?
The AI puts air directives over what it considers to be the most logical spots to aid its efforts, are you eschewing countering that because it is obvious? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it being 'hardly realistic' for you to focus your ADs where you expect his efforts.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 8:16:11 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Your comparing Apples and Oranges Im on turn *3* there your on turn *6*. There may not be a problem in turn *6* but there is in turn 1,2 and 3 I have posted up my AD's. This Air directive is one of three over the area it has the finest Naval Interdiction and Patrol aircraft the Allies could throw at any problem and is much more concentrated. This Directive alone I should be getting the historical interference which was *nuisance*






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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 8:38:42 AM   
Smirfy

 

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As you can see by turn 4 whilst the Axis interdiction has abated somewhat the Allies for all their effort they are doing little. As I said in the design notes the philosophy of both the Air War Mod and the Big Wing Mod was to Free your Tactical and Strategic Airforces with Patrol aircraft from an abstract foe and let them get on with what they did historically ie the fun stuff. I think my views on Naval interdiction will diverge from Match Play players, but that is as I said why I had to make the mod in the first place. Notwithstanding the Naval Interdiction I believe grouping the RAF and USAAF squadron aircraft is a good thing to do. Turn One is no longer a chore and playability has improved and it does not feel any less historical. That is more the purpose of the AAR see if there is any pitfalls for the Big Wings.




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 9:25:12 AM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		There is definitely a neater feel.




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 9:38:29 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		The Naval patrol wings are paying a heavy price. The wings are getting decimated. We could certainly use those Walrus ASR aicraft Pavel :)




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 10:36:24 AM   
Smirfy

 

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Turn 6 and the fun stuff can start. Operation Sylvia is launched the ariel preperation for the invaision of Mainland Europe. The Bombers of the USAAF Strategic Airforce are sent to the Port of Taranto, the RAF Strategic Bombers to the Port of Crotone and Tactical Air Bombers to the Port of Reggio Calabria.




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 10:37:11 AM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Losses minimal results positive

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 11:28:03 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		Unfortunately the imaginary U-Boat aces of the deep, the EBoats despite bombed out ports and the non existant Axis airforce destroy 13 *troop* transports which equates to 13,000 men or a division. Naval interdiction in this patch is a total nonsense and ruins another wise very enjoyable game




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 1:59:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Messina for the chop but still the defenders cling on




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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 4:00:50 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Your comparing Apples and Oranges


I'm trying to figure out how you're slicing the fruit. ;)
Aside from me assigning the aircraft myself I also assign Tactical an Air Superiority box over the American beaches. I wonder if the size, and distance from staging, of your Tactical AS AD is hurting efficacy.
After turn 1 I move several squadrons of Spits to Sicily and stage Tacticals AS AD from the landing area to maximize loiter time.
I just haven't had a problem maintaining naval superiority with these tactics, by the second week it seems Tactical's AS turns back most German efforts.

quote:

Im on turn *3* there your on turn *6*. There may not be a problem in turn *6* but there is in turn 1,2 and 3 I have posted up my AD's.


It appears you're relying on auto aircraft selection. What does it actually select to send? Are you making available 4k and it using 100?
If you want to post a save after your ADs have run on turn 1-3 I'd like to see how's it's using the assets you've made available.

I'm on turn 11 now in BGI, I'll check and see what the troop ship losses look like.

I'm doing my best to figure out how to make how it works work for me, but I still lean toward thinking the game would benefit if that aspect was abstracted entirely into auto naval air patrol for both sides. Let the player base aircraft to influence the auto naval patrol number crunching like they do now, and just drop player selected naval patrol ADs. I don't think the player created ones enhance the realism, they just allow the Axis to do some gamey things with ahistorical concentrations of force.

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RE: Battleground Italy Big Wing - 4/5/2015 4:30:23 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
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Status: offline 		Naval Interdiction is totally broken in this patch you lose Transports in an arbitrary manner as a matchplay game balance tool. Its a nonsense mechanic that sucks the fun clean out of the game. The Royal Navy and USN existed In 1943 the Allies simply did not lose troop transports! Convoys, I believe with escort carriers and ASW groups or so Ive read! No I dont rely on auto aircraft selection, I am doing what I have always been doing except with more and getting worse results!. The problem with the mechanic is its totally abstract for one side which is leading naval interdiction to be used to solve every single problem. Too many Allied invaisions. Solution More Naval interdiction. Allies have too much Supply in the beachhead. Solution More Naval Interdiction. This is simply the wrong way to go about it. German Naval inderdiction post 43 was hopelessly overmatched and did absolutely nothing to stop or interfere with invaisions. The two bottlenecks were one; each landing required X amount of shipping for Y amount of troops and two: Landing Craft. Both were finite! Naval interdiction had bugger all to do with it! Infact it was the Allies who were interdictiing the Axis coastal traffic!


Anyway like I said it is trying its best to spoil an otherwise good game Im having, the Wings are a joy to use compared to Squadrons.







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