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What if mod - 4/5/2015 5:56:19 AM

DOCUP

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This is a what if fantasy mod. I want to thank John 3rd and his team, JWE and his team, Skyland, Paradigmbue and JaunG for letting me use ther material and or assistance with this mod so far.

This mod has the Germans keeping control of the Solomon's. Rabual is now the Germans main base. Forts and AF was in ease to 3 each. A base force with both AV and Nav support with some CD guns and all the other goodies. Inf rgt, AA, and eng units are also present. I have put a german colonial unit at Buna. 2 BF 109 squadrons along with a Stuka and Dornier squadron present. I have added BC Schornhost, CA Deutchland, and 6 1934 DDs and 6 U boats. I am thinking of adding some TB boats and AMC's.

Replacements are limited for the Germans. Similar to the Dutch.

Butterfly effect

Since the Germans are next door to Australia and some of the units had to be moved things have changed. The eng unit that was at Rabaul has moved to Mline Bay along with one of the coy units, two of the other coy units are at the new dot bases around Port Moresby. Lark BN is at Port Moresby now. A fighter squadron is now at PM.

French have built up Noumea Ports and AF are both 3's. Base force with AV, nav support , CD guns and the rest of the gang are present. A colonial Inf rgt is present. I am thinking of putting a small colonial inf BN at Koumac. The french have squadron of D 510s and MS 206. A squadron of DBS and Catalina's are present. 2 Dunkerque BC, CL and some DDs are at Noumea.

BTS is the base mod. Any ideas or constructive ideas?

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 6:09:29 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

This is a what if fantasy mod. I want to thank John 3rd and his team, JWE and his team, Skyland, Paradigmbue and JaunG for letting me use ther material and or assistance with this mod so far.

This mod has the Germans keeping control of the Solomon's. Rabual is now the Germans main base. Forts and AF was in ease to 3 each. A base force with both AV and Nav support with some CD guns and all the other goodies. Inf rgt, AA, and eng units are also present. I have put a german colonial unit at Buna. 2 BF 109 squadrons along with a Stuka and Dornier squadron present. I have added BC Schornhost, CA Deutchland, and 6 1934 DDs and 6 U boats. I am thinking of adding some TB boats and AMC's.

Replacements are limited for the Germans. Similar to the Dutch.

Butterfly effect

Since the Germans are next door to Australia and some of the units had to be moved things have changed. The eng unit that was at Rabaul has moved to Mline Bay along with one of the coy units, two of the other coy units are at the new dot bases around Port Moresby. Lark BN is at Port Moresby now. A fighter squadron is now at PM.

French have built up Noumea Ports and AF are both 3's. Base force with AV, nav support , CD guns and the rest of the gang are present. A colonial Inf rgt is present. I am thinking of putting a small colonial inf BN at Koumac. The french have squadron of D 510s and MS 206. A squadron of DBS and Catalina's are present. 2 Dunkerque BC, CL and some DDs are at Noumea.

BTS is the base mod. Any ideas or constructive ideas?

warspite1

Presumably the presence of a small but powerful force on Australia's doorstep would have compelled the RN to counter with a force of its own? A couple of battlecruisers and a light cruiser or two perhaps?

Its possible they would have left this to the French I suppose, but unlikely imo and I would envisage a small but powerful RN task force heading to Australia in early 1939 as war becomes seemingly imminent.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/5/2015 7:14:36 AM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 6:18:05 AM

DOCUP

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Thanks Warspite. I had been thinking about the RN response. I thought about them turning the Tiger over to the Aussies. The Tiger along with the CAV and cruisers would of been a decent force to contend with not to mention that the French are close by.

Or

In the BTS world Britian got to build 2 extra BCs in response the the US and Japanese building the Lexington class BC and the Amagi class. I assume the BC class built by the RN would of been the G3 class. Could throw one of them or another capital ship into the mix.

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 6:34:34 AM

DOCUP

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There are some other changes. US takes notice that the Japanese are modernizing the Kongos, other countries have built or are building faster battleships. So they modernize the Colorado class with more armor and lengthen them for a little more speed. US is slightly better prepared for war. P39 keeps the turbo and superchargers, some more ground troops in the pools. Maybe some plane swaps here and there.

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 6:37:35 AM

warspite1

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Sorry DOCUP I am not sure what other "what-ifs" are being thrown in here.

But if its the case that the Germans get to keep their Pacific territories but the Treaty of Versailles happens in so far as limitations on German military hardware are concerned, then the problem of what to do with the Kriegsmarine is much more recent i.e. late thirties when Hitler re-arms and Washington would have long since scrapped the idea of the G3.

The Scharnhorst was not commissioned until 1939 but of course the Germans could theoretically have put the Graf Spee and/or a sister into the Pacific in 1936/7 (no way Hitler would have done this as it would really hurt his attempts to get the British/French on side while he "peacefully" begun gobbling up border areas - but then "what-ifs" are no fun if some liberties are not taken!).

At that time, the Repulse and/or Hood perhaps (Renown was being re-constructed at that time) along with a CA and a CL?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/5/2015 7:38:30 AM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 6:51:56 AM

DOCUP

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Nice catch on the Scharnhost. I missed the commission date. Adding two Duetchland class cruisers does sound like a better idea and slightly more realistic. I don't know if I could change the Hoods fate. Maybe the Repulse. Thanks

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RE: What if mod - 4/5/2015 2:17:05 PM

btd64

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DOCUP,
Do you have a file to download? If your using BTS, I assume the Extended map is also used. I would like to take a look....GP

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 6:16:19 AM

DOCUP

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GP: I will try and get them to you later today. The mod is rough right now. I have a lot to work on.

Still thinking about things, Warspite's ideas sound good to me.

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 4:22:03 PM

Skyros

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The Germans would also require a number of support ships to maintain the two Deutchlands so far from home. An AR, AKE and oilers should be provided. They might not do much but provide VP to the allies, but they would be necessary to support a long distance deployments.

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 7:01:15 PM

Lowpe

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Since it is late 1941, the Germans should be under siege. Aussies should be besieging Rabaul and Japan rides to the rescue! Can they get there in time?

Germans should only have subs left, perhaps a secret sub base with an AS, AO, a few float planes that are being resupplied on the sly by Japan.

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 7:12:21 PM

warspite1

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If this scenario starts in late 1941 then I guess it would be unlikely that the German surface vessel(s) held out for 2-years although would no doubt have led the RN a merry dance for as long as possible (as did the Graf Spee irl).

One thing though. What would happen if the Graf Spee or whichever ships you employ there used Japan to re-supply and/or repair battle damage. Japan could probably claim she was in the process of interning the ship when she accidently escaped......whoops!

I mean the UK is hardly in a position to go to war with Japan over such a breach of international agreements.....

It's a big old ocean and if the Germans had their supply ships in the Pacific too well who knows how long they could have remained at large ......

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/7/2015 8:13:36 PM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 7:38:25 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Since it is late 1941, the Germans should be under siege. Aussies should be besieging Rabaul and Japan rides to the rescue! Can they get there in time?

Germans should only have subs left, perhaps a secret sub base with an AS, AO, a few float planes that are being resupplied on the sly by Japan.

I like it!

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RE: What if mod - 4/7/2015 9:45:03 PM

DOCUP

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Skyros: You are correct about the support ships.

Lowpe and Warspite: You are both probably right about Germans either being defeated or having its butt kicked. If that happens we are roughly back at square one. Maybe a stronger presence at a few more bases.

For arguments sake. Most of the infantry forces in and around Australia where militia forces. Would they have been used to go after the Germans? Ok got to go more thought later. Hopefully more from you all also.

GP: I might get the files to you tomorrow.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 2:26:36 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Skyros: You are correct about the support ships.

Lowpe and Warspite: You are both probably right about Germans either being defeated or having its butt kicked. If that happens we are roughly back at square one. Maybe a stronger presence at a few more bases.

For arguments sake. Most of the infantry forces in and around Australia where militia forces. Would they have been used to go after the Germans? Ok got to go more thought later. Hopefully more from you all also.

GP: I might get the files to you tomorrow.

warspite1

Yes, but then its no fun!

I still wonder about the Japan thing. So Germany start September 1939 with a couple of pocket-battleships in the Pacific.

As Graf Spee on her own showed, the vastness of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans meant that she could lead the British and French a merry dance for some considerable time - 3-months - and remember it was Langsdorff, disobeying orders, that attacked the British off the River Plate so she may have even lasted longer.

So with the right number of auxiliaries dotted around the Pacific to replenish - and an even bigger ocean to play in - the ships could have been at large for longer (the British and French would still send their Hunting Groups out - they would just have further to travel and a bigger area to look).

The problem for the Germans of course is that they would need refitting from time to time - and that would mean a proper shipyard. That is where the intriguing thought about Japan comes into play. Could/would Japan provide such assistance to Nazi Germany?

Suppose instead of Montevideo, the German ships were "interned" by the Japanese during early 1940. What would happen come September 1940 when Japan signs the Tripartite Pact? or indeed in December 1941 when they properly enter the war with the Germans?

If these ships "escaped" internment in September 1940 the Hunting Groups the RN can send out will be much smaller. Remember by now the French are out of the war and the Italians are in it......

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/8/2015 3:27:42 AM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 2:36:25 AM

witpqs

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quote:

As Graf Spee on her own showed, the vastness of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans meant that she could lead the British and French a merry dance for some considerable time - 3-months - and remember it was Langsdorff, disobeying orders, that attacked the British off the River Plate so she may have even lasted longer.

Or consider the voyage of the Admiral Scheer.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 2:49:28 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

As Graf Spee on her own showed, the vastness of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans meant that she could lead the British and French a merry dance for some considerable time - 3-months - and remember it was Langsdorff, disobeying orders, that attacked the British off the River Plate so she may have even lasted longer.

Or consider the voyage of the Admiral Scheer.

warspite1

Indeed, when she broke out into the Atlantic (and went on to the South Atlantic and, briefly, the Indian Ocean) the conditions mentioned above were in place - the French out and the Italians in - thus the search parties were nothing like as large as that afforded to the Graf Spee - with the result that Scheer was able to return to Germany.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/8/2015 3:51:56 AM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 2:59:46 AM

warspite1

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So two questions arise here in terms of realism.

1. What would Japan do if the German ships required assistance? Keeping the ships for more than 72 hours (iirc) would have been against international agreement - but the British are hardly in a position to do anything about it from a practical point of view.

2. Spare parts or lack of even if the Japanese agreed to assist. However the voyage of the Komet shows that if spare parts were required then, pre June 1941, there would have been some way of getting these to Japan.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 3:53:43 AM

DOCUP

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Warspite: Good questions and nice thoughts.

For the sake of this mod the Germans are able to evade the allies and wreak havoc in the Pacific. That forces the French to move in some naval and land assets to he Pacific. They see the writin on the wall and move some troops and other assets from IndoChina to Noumea.

The US see's the Germans running around the Alantic and Pacific, start preparing earlier for war.

Who's to say the Germans couldn't have snuck their ships into an out of the way shipyard. Allied spies didn't pick up on the Yamato. If parts are needed they could of made it early in the war (IMO) depending on the size and complexity of the parts. Some of the AMCs might of been able to transport some of the parts.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 1:56:18 PM

Orm

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I suspect that Germany would only have based U-boats and a couple of commercial raiders there. And that the U-boats would soon have had access to secret bases on Japanese territory.

I also suspect that Germany would have traded their bases to Japan almost as soon as they entered war with CW in exchange for support for their U-boats. So when Japan goes to war with USA all the German territories would have been Japanese.

I think that what happened to the German Fleet in this area during WWI would affect on how Germany located their surface fleet prior to WWII.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 3:19:24 PM

Symon

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The really hard thing about �Germans� is that there�s only �Japanese� in the game code. You can have nice German Art, Gun Devices, etc � but all of your leaders, skippers, TF commanders, will become Japanese in the ordinary course of events.

Similarly, there are hard coded things that happen with respect to Japan vs Allies that will apply to ALL �Axis� devices, units, ships, combat results, etc � You will see things happen that you will scream could never happen to the KM, and you will be quite right. But the KM is not modeled in the game, so the screams will be lost in the Devine Wind. [and no, we will never tweak the game to compensate].

Basically, �Germans� are nothing but Art and initial Ship/Device specs. Even those specs will get adapted by the game code so you eventually get nothing more than Japanese units with German names.

I appreciate ya�lls efforts, but I think you will find the game code renders them eventually nugatory. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news at this late date, but .. needs must when the Devil dances.

Ciao. JWE

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 6:06:03 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suspect that Germany would only have based U-boats and a couple of commercial raiders there. And that the U-boats would soon have had access to secret bases on Japanese territory.

I also suspect that Germany would have traded their bases to Japan almost as soon as they entered war with CW in exchange for support for their U-boats. So when Japan goes to war with USA all the German territories would have been Japanese.

I think that what happened to the German Fleet in this area during WWI would affect on how Germany located their surface fleet prior to WWII.

warspite1

But if supported by auxiliaries (as per real life) then what would be the difference between these ships running amok in the Western Pacific/Indian Ocean as opposed to the South Atlantic/Indian Ocean? - apart from a few thousand miles of course.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 7:08:06 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suspect that Germany would only have based U-boats and a couple of commercial raiders there. And that the U-boats would soon have had access to secret bases on Japanese territory.

I also suspect that Germany would have traded their bases to Japan almost as soon as they entered war with CW in exchange for support for their U-boats. So when Japan goes to war with USA all the German territories would have been Japanese.

I think that what happened to the German Fleet in this area during WWI would affect on how Germany located their surface fleet prior to WWII.

warspite1

But if supported by auxiliaries (as per real life) then what would be the difference between these ships running amok in the Western Pacific/Indian Ocean as opposed to the South Atlantic/Indian Ocean? - apart from a few thousand miles of course.

More bases for the auxiliaries to hide? More uncertainty for the Allied high command and a larger area for the RN ships to cover?

The point I was trying to make was that the German regular fleet would not put much value in those bases. They would assume that any regular ships based there would soon be hunted down and lost. The value would mostly be for U-boats and as real estate to use for bargaining with the Japanese.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 7:33:41 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suspect that Germany would only have based U-boats and a couple of commercial raiders there. And that the U-boats would soon have had access to secret bases on Japanese territory.

I also suspect that Germany would have traded their bases to Japan almost as soon as they entered war with CW in exchange for support for their U-boats. So when Japan goes to war with USA all the German territories would have been Japanese.

I think that what happened to the German Fleet in this area during WWI would affect on how Germany located their surface fleet prior to WWII.

warspite1

But if supported by auxiliaries (as per real life) then what would be the difference between these ships running amok in the Western Pacific/Indian Ocean as opposed to the South Atlantic/Indian Ocean? - apart from a few thousand miles of course.

More bases for the auxiliaries to hide? More uncertainty for the Allied high command and a larger area for the RN ships to cover?

The point I was trying to make was that the German regular fleet would not put much value in those bases. They would assume that any regular ships based there would soon be hunted down and lost. The value would mostly be for U-boats and as real estate to use for bargaining with the Japanese.

warspite1

But the chances of being hunted down and lost would not be different (in fact with hindsight after the fall of France and the entry of Italy into the war it would be a whole lot better) to the chances of Graf Spee or Admiral Scheer - both of whom ranged as far as the Indian Ocean.

Would the Germans have based one or more out in the Pacific if they still had their mandated territories? Well I don't know but the ships were designed primarily to destroy enemy merchant shipping and whether in the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Indian or Pacific Oceans, the danger was the same (provided their auxiliaries were on hand) and that was being damaged sufficiently that they could not find their way home before being overwhelmed by enemy units.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 7:48:15 PM

Orm

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I consider Graf Spee and Admiral Scheer as regular Kriegsmarine and I do not think their missions would have been altered with bases in the pacific. Graf Spee would still have been sunk outside Montevideo.

What I am trying to say is that the German auxiliary cruisers and their support ships would have access to better starting points and access to friendly support bases. No need for Komet to travel halfway around the world in order to raid the Pacific. Komet could simply had been based in the Pacific to begin with.

I do not think that Germany would have based any regular warships at all in the Pacific.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/8/2015 8:49:35 PM >

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 8:03:37 PM

warspite1

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But iirc the Auxiliary Cruisers were after thoughts. They were requisitioned and converted after the War had started 39/40 so they would have to travel halfway around the world anyway!

Unless the What-if is that the Germans decided to use these auxiliary cruisers in good time for conversion - say 1938?

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 8:10:11 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But iirc the Auxiliary Cruisers were after thoughts. They were requisitioned and converted after the War had started 39/40 so they would have to travel halfway around the world anyway!

Unless the What-if is that the Germans decided to use these auxiliary cruisers in good time for conversion - say 1938?

If they had the bases I suspect that they might have had a commercial ship there or two they could have attempted to convert. Or even have had planned for it in advance.

But disregarding those auxiliary cruisers I am not sure if we are in disagreement.

What I mainly think is:
- No German warships, including the pocket battleships, would have been based in the Pacific. I doubt even torpedo boats would have been based there.
- A few U-boats would have been based there.
- After the WWII begun Germany would have attempted to trade or sell those territories to Japan.

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RE: What if mod - 4/8/2015 8:16:37 PM

warspite1

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The only disagreement is the use of a pocket-battleship (or two). I would say yes on the basis that hunting down merchant shipping is what they were built for and if they have the bases why not?

DOCUP its your mod - over to you!

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RE: What if mod - 4/9/2015 2:36:10 AM

DOCUP

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Thanks for the input guys. I will try and address everyone's comments with my own thoughts.

Symon: I remember you or another developer mentioning what you said. I know the Germans will be Japanese in the end. Your are right about it being just art and specs, but for your imagination. Your not the bearer of bad news or are you to late. I opened this thread for advise, thoughts, and guidance. I am new to this (first time really trying this).

Orm: You are probably right about Germany not basing valuable assets in the Solomons. Commercial raiders and U boats would probably be a better risk vs reward play.

Warspite: A comment you made struck home to me. "but then its no fun". I took this on for the fun of it. Something for me to mess around with in my spare time. It has grown into a learning experience along the way.

I have made my decision. I am going to keep the surface assets. I hope you all keep following and posting, I need someone to keep me in line. let me know your thoughts or ideas.

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Post #: 28

RE: What if mod - 4/9/2015 2:48:46 AM

DOCUP

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I have to say the Niehorster webpage is very interesting.

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RE: What if mod - 4/9/2015 8:24:25 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Thanks for the input guys. I will try and address everyone's comments with my own thoughts.

Symon: I remember you or another developer mentioning what you said. I know the Germans will be Japanese in the end. Your are right about it being just art and specs, but for your imagination. Your not the bearer of bad news or are you to late. I opened this thread for advise, thoughts, and guidance. I am new to this (first time really trying this).

Orm: You are probably right about Germany not basing valuable assets in the Solomons. Commercial raiders and U boats would probably be a better risk vs reward play.

Warspite: A comment you made struck home to me. "but then its no fun". I took this on for the fun of it. Something for me to mess around with in my spare time. It has grown into a learning experience along the way.

I have made my decision. I am going to keep the surface assets. I hope you all keep following and posting, I need someone to keep me in line. let me know your thoughts or ideas.

warspite1

Nice one - I will follow this with interest - if only to see the fine ship art of the Kriegsmarine (and additional French and RN) vessels on the Pacific map!

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to DOCUP)

Post #: 30