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Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East

 
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Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 11:33:09 AM   
tm1


Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline 		Back on the WITE forum some time back some one posted asking whether both game systems could be used to perhaps produce a game in the Far East with scenarios and campaigns ranging from the historical Soviet invasion of Manchuria, Japans campaign in China to a combined historical/hypothetical grand campaign with Japan attacking china then Russia with a starting date of either 1939 or 1941.

There was some positive feed back while others felt it would not work for various reasons including putting together reinforcement/replacement schedule for both Russia and Japan in campaign that would exclude the Western Allies.

That's a fair point

Another issue Was that the game mechanics of supply and logistics for the Far East would not work due to the sparse rail system In Manchuria and Siberia.
(tried finding the original thread but could not find so I'm working off memory )

Another fair point

However I have WITW and a careful look at the available map of Africa and although its nowhere near the size of the Far East but from what I can see the rail system there is tiny and yet a WITW expansion is coming out soon.

not to mention there will be a second expansion based on the North African campaign 1941-1943 which will have serious supply problems involved.

Now 2by3 have at least 3 more games coming out in the years to come based in the European theatre but I hope they do look at the Far East some time down the track.

Up until I bought WITE I had played HOI 2 Doomsday for years and loved playing as Japan and attacking Russia early on throwing a spanner in the works.

Regards TM
Post #: 1
RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 2:35:07 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Any game that allows Japan to seriously inconvenience Russia is (to quote Pelton;) ) Middle Earth...

I would rather have WitE 2.0 first

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 4:05:22 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Why didn't Japan invade the USSR in 1941 and turned against the USA with the British Commonwealth?

Japan needed oil and needed it badly. It imported 90% of oil supply mostly from the USA (80% in 1937 to 60% in 1941). There wasn't much of it on the Soviet territory they intended to invade.

Japan intended to conquer the entire Pacific region dominated mostly by the USA and the British Commonwealth. There were large oil deposits in the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia). The war was inevitable.

Japan waged a war in China and was going to start another one according to the reasons above. Entering a war with the USSR could exceed their military and industrial potential.

The USSR could do to Japan what the USA could not do in 1941: destroy the Japanese industry through bombardments. The USSR deployed in the Far East no less than 80 long range bombers, 60 heavy bombers, 60 attack bombers, 330 light bombers supported by 450 fighters and 200 naval aircraft units. The Imperial Supreme War Command was well aware of this and couldn't neutralize the Soviet Air Force.

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 6:28:17 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		also worth remembering that the Soviets pretty quickly replaced the Far Eastern divisions they pulled west in late 1941 so as to keep the Far Eastern military districts up to strength ... ok they removed some of the best units in the Red Army and replaced them with freshly raised divisions but it does indicate they wanted to ensure the Japanese did not get ideas

modelling the Soviet 1945 offensive with the WiTW game engine would be interesting given that 6 Tank Army first sent its Sherman equipped tank corps to the rear (partly due to limited supply, partly as the T-34s could cope with poor roads so much better) and then effectively ran out of fuel short of its targets ... but I can't see it as being a particularly interesting game for whoever takes the Japanese side

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 7:32:24 PM   
MrClock

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/13/2014
From: Milan - Italy
Status: offline 		First of all I would like a real battle for the Mediterranean, and I doubt that will ever be implemented with an expansion ...

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 8:19:35 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		Why couldn't you model that? The map goes from Ireland to Siberia, and down to North Africa and Norway. I'm sure down the road they have plans for a Mediterranean campaign, and I'm not sure how far the editor goes back to now for a start date, but Torch starts in Nov. 42, and if it went back a little further there's no reason you couldn't do a Med. Campaign.

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 8:47:22 PM   
MrClock

 

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Joined: 12/13/2014
From: Milan - Italy
Status: offline 		I think that the naval combat system is too abstract for a 40-42 campaign.
On Nov. 42 the allied naval superiority in the Mediterranean was already overwhelming. The naval combat system is thought to an imbalance of forces, with the US already in the field.

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/12/2015 11:27:31 PM   
LiquidSky


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The Japanese (army) did attack the Russians. They lost. Badly. Read about the battle of Khalkhyn Gol (Russian) or Nomonham (Japanese).

Essentially it meant the end of any aspirations the Japanese had for Siberian resources. And because of it, the Russians and Japanese had a non-aggression pact (which the honourable Japanese would not break) and allowed divisions to be transferred west for the winter offensive.

It is only dishonourable armchair warriors who would consider attacking the Russians with the Japanese.

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/13/2015 12:21:55 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		The Japanese decision between attacking the Soviets and attacking southwards came down to three factors:

1) The performance of the Soviet army in the battle of Khalkhyn Gol where Zhukov beat the Japanese forces back with relative ease (at least the Japanese felt it was that way).

2) The area of the Soviet Union that the Japanese would invade had great UNDEVELOPED resources. So the Japanese would have to first capture the resources and then develop them (oil fields, pipelines, mines, foundries, etc.)

3) Attacking the Europeans (and the US) was more attractive due to racial issues. Being victorious against the Europeans was a great propaganda tool for the Japanese. They just did not do a great job of exploiting it as much as they might have. Pretty much the same story as the Germans could have exploited anti-communistic feelings in the Soviet Union but were not capable of doing so in practice.

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/13/2015 12:26:08 AM   
Davekhps

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Any game that allows Japan to seriously inconvenience Russia is (to quote Pelton;) ) Middle Earth...


Please don't do that, it's already annoying enough.

Besides, every time Pelton writes "Middle Earth," a Nazgul's fellbeast gets its wings.

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 10
RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/17/2015 1:49:34 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
2) The area of the Soviet Union that the Japanese would invade had great UNDEVELOPED resources. So the Japanese would have to first capture the resources and then develop them (oil fields, pipelines, mines, foundries, etc.)


More to the point, it wasn't that the resources were undeveloped so much as that most of them hadn't even been discovered ... at least, the ones that would have been useful to the Japs.

IIRC the only oilfields known of and in production were on Sakhalin and produced something like a couple of thousand bbl a day (total, not per well) - as I understand it the pretty much all of the 'resources' that were known to exist, developed or otherwise, in the Russian Far East were non-oil resources.

Considering that Japan had barely enough shipping to do sequential rather than simultaneous invasions in the SE Asian region historically and moved, IIRC, no more than a dozen divisions (and not all at once) or division equivalents, then the problem becomes ... if they head north, they can't head south, and if they can't head south they can't get the oil, and the reason they went to war was that they were running out of oil and had only about 2 years supply left.

Now, yes, Japanese planners were known for throwing hissy fits when reality impinged on their plans, so it's possible they could have simply said, 'a few banzai charges will solve the problem' ... sadly, all the times they ignored reality, well, reality bit them in the bum without fail.

Phil

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/17/2015 3:28:09 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Davekhps


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Any game that allows Japan to seriously inconvenience Russia is (to quote Pelton;) ) Middle Earth...


Please don't do that, it's already annoying enough.

Besides, every time Pelton writes "Middle Earth," a Nazgul's fellbeast gets its wings.


Bad Dobby! (actually I'm banging my head in shame not bowing!)

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RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/17/2015 4:55:06 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		What about Vladivostok? I wonder why the japanese did not try to take it, with the support of their fleet.

I think they need to develop a real naval system for a complete mediterranean campaign, or any campaign involving large naval forces, and it is not an easy task.

Michel.

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Post #: 13
RE: Can the WITE/WITW game system be used in the Far East - 4/18/2015 3:50:40 PM   
Laskaris

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 5/2/2014
Status: offline 		I would love to see a WITE/WITW expansion or mod set in the Far East.

WITP:AE already depicts the naval war and the island hopping campaigns masterfully. But to my knowledge, there has never been a game that specifically modelled the land campaigns in China, neither by Grigsby nor by anyone else. The Sino-Japanese War and the Chinese Civil War were huge conflicts, playing out over s span of almost twenty years with millions of soldiers and vast expanses of territory. Moreover, there are the Japanese-Soviet border clashes which might have escalated into full-scale war if things had gone differently.

It would be a fascinating project to model that. Of course, the problem is that these conflicts are not nearly as well-researched as the War in Europe or the (US-Japanese) War in the Pacific, and good material in the English language is rare - which is the main reason, I suspect, why the the Sino-Japanese war and the Chinese Civl War are so neglected in war games. But with a little creative license, a dedicated game designer or modder could do it.

In terms of arms technology, it would be quite different from the War in Europe, obviously. Almost no tanks, mostly infantry, with many militia / irregular units on the Chinese side. The game would have to simulate partisan warfare and supply / logistics very well to work in this theatre.

< Message edited by Laskaris -- 4/18/2015 4:55:18 PM >

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