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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >>

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- 3/12/2003 9:06:51 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

I personally do not like the variable rules in that they make little sense overall.

Having a situation where the Allies get 2 CV's early and Japan get 6 CV's late (which can happen) pretty much ends the game.

I've never been terribly fond of dice games, the Variable rules place UV in that catagory to me.

I understand completely what you are saying though, the lack of info forcing recon is quite appealing. True FoW ;)

The outcome of the game should be about skill of how one rolls out one's plans ... there is enough randomness with individual battles. This random arrival flies directly in the face of this being a skills game. If I want that, I'll play Axis and Allies instead of a real wargame :D

Perhaps, WitP will have a better system where players can rush unit productions, control what gets formed, and give the suprise element into the game in that manner instead of tossing the dice and praying :( that the other guy gets shafted on the roll ...

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 61

- 3/12/2003 10:57:19 AM

Deban

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/7/2002
Status: offline

At least Yamamoto didnt use my name when refering to the PBEM game where some idiot let 180 planes be destroyed on PM :eek:

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 62

- 3/12/2003 12:01:55 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deban
[B]At least Yamamoto didnt use my name when refering to the PBEM game where some idiot let 180 planes be destroyed on PM :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL, I am sure that we have all made foolish mistakes at one time or another. I well remember in one of my first PBEM games sailing all of my 4 CV's (USN) from Noumea to Townsville and had all the pilots set for "Training" thinking that it would be a good time to train them up. It was the second week of the war, and I was 100% sure that there would be no IJN CVs THAT far south so early in the game. Well as you can guess, what should pop-up out of nowhere but the entire IJN CV fleet.....they sank two CV there and then and the other two the next day, all for the loss of 10 or so aircraft.:rolleyes:

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 63

- 3/12/2003 12:13:06 PM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Seriously, give it a try. You will be shocked completely as you will have lost your entire airforce trying to close Lae. Try different heights, whatever you want. Give it a try in a H2H game against yourself. You will find that the amount of supplies at Lae is more then enough for you to seriously maul your bombers. The AA guns will become disrupted before the base runs out of supplies.

33 bombers gone for Lae in 6 days of bombardment to temporarly close it. This is with B-25D/B-26B/Havoc/Hudson/B-17E all committed to closing it presuming no attacks on PM at all (which will reduce the damage to Lae & increase losses to Allied bombers. The Hudsons & B-17E are flying out of Cooktown)

Replacement rate/losses:

Hudson 10 lost 4
B-25D 20 lost 8
B-26B 10 lost 15
Havoc 10 lost 5
B-17E 0 lost 6

(includes the 11 operational losses, they are NOT from transfers).

Fatigue was allowed to completely clear before starting bombing just to make it completely unbiased. In reality, this is NEVER going to happen this well. This is with NO cap at all on Lae, letting you come throw yourself on the AA guns free of charge.

I was actually surprised that they did this good, but these are highly unrealistic tests with everything in the Allies favour. [/B][/QUOTE]

I tried your experiment.

With the 3 AA units at Rabaul moved to Lae, as well as the zero sqn, I proceeded to attempt a 6 day bombing campaign.

No B-25s were used.
No P-39D/P-400 strikes.
All fighters at 70% CAP @ PM
Default altitudes.
1 B-17 Strike from Cairns during the 6 day period (flew only when weather clear)
1 day no strikes flown due to weather.
No unit with fatigue over 30 flown, in fact, bomber sqn were rotated on missions.

Results:

Service damage 34
Runway damage 67
Supplies 4759
2 Zeros lost

Allied Losses:
19 bombers
(2 x B-17, 7 x A-24, 6 x B-26, 3 x A-20, 1 x Hudson)
5 fighters
(2 x P-39D, 2 x P-40)

At end of 6 day campaign, 145 aircraft at PM

Not quite shut down, but operations @ Lae curtailed with a large (but not unexpected) cost. Enough to preclude serious offensive operations out of Lae.

But it does illustrate that it is not an inexpensive operation to shut down Lae.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 64

- 3/12/2003 1:05:31 PM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]LOL, I am sure that we have all made foolish mistakes at one time or another. I well remember in one of my first PBEM games sailing all of my 4 CV's (USN) from Noumea to Townsville and had all the pilots set for "Training" thinking that it would be a good time to train them up. It was the second week of the war, and I was 100% sure that there would be no IJN CVs THAT far south so early in the game. Well as you can guess, what should pop-up out of nowhere but the entire IJN CV fleet.....they sank two CV there and then and the other two the next day, all for the loss of 10 or so aircraft.:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Too right. Did something similar and lost the Lex and Yorktown in one day without any IJN CVs sunk. A real bad hair day.

I have to post this Combat report from a PBEM that was started last year and still going on. It did start ugly with myself, as I was resting my F4F-3s at 0% CAP (Notice no CAP), and a IJN CVs TF appeared out of nowhere. I post the good ones, might as well post an ugly one:D

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/14/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on TF at 25,45

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 15

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 14 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 1 damaged

ENS K. Sugino of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5

LCDR W. Hamilton of VB-2 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CA Myoko

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 25,45

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 17
SBD Dauntless x 30
TBD Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 5 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 damaged
TBD Devastator x 2 damaged

PO2 G.Kanda of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CA Haguro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 25,45

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 20
SBD Dauntless x 15
TBD Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 10 damaged
TBD Devastator x 2 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 2 damaged

ENS K. Okabe of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3

LCDR J. Thach of VF-3 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1
CA Kinugasa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,50

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
D3A Val x 46
B5N Kate x 43

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 4 destroyed
D3A Val x 2 damaged
B5N Kate x 5 destroyed
B5N Kate x 22 damaged

LT M. Yamaguchi of EI-2 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Astoria, Torpedo hits 1
DD Alwin
CA Minneapolis, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,50

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Lae , at 9,33

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 8
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-40E Kittyhawk x 8
B-26B Marauder x 40
A-20B Havoc x 14

no losses

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 141

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 29

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x Hudson at 5000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
5 x A-20B Havoc at 5000 feet
7 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
9 x A-20B Havoc at 5000 feet
10 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 5000 feet
5 x Hudson at 5000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,50

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
D3A Val x 18
B5N Kate x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 65

- 3/19/2003 12:17:44 AM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

Yamamoto writes:

<< I recently played a PBEM game where I took PM on the 14th of May, having kept it closed since about the 9th or so, and destroyed 180+ planes on the ground. ... Your bombardment group will be the one to close down PM anyway� the planes just help keep it suppressed. >>

Yamamoto, I have two questions about your early invasions of PM:

1. What ships do you use to bombard PM that early? The little CL-DD-DD-DD-DD group that starts in Rabaul? (I've always used those for FTs to Lunga, Buna, Gili, etc.; are they also effective in a bombardment role?) Or do you siphon off some surface ships from the Air Combat TFs?

2. That early, you only have two or three regiments in Truk, plus one in Rabaul. Do you have enough ground forces to take PM from a determined Allied opponent? The Allies can ship and fly in several regiments in the first week, can they not? Also, PM is that much tougher after 2.30, now that non-combat units (e.g., the AA and ENG units in PM) have inherent defense capabilities.

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 66

- 3/19/2003 1:07:12 AM

Yamamoto

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grotius
[B]Yamamoto writes:

<< I recently played a PBEM game where I took PM on the 14th of May, having kept it closed since about the 9th or so, and destroyed 180+ planes on the ground. ... Your bombardment group will be the one to close down PM anyway� the planes just help keep it suppressed. >>

Yamamoto, I have two questions about your early invasions of PM:

1. What ships do you use to bombard PM that early? The little CL-DD-DD-DD-DD group that starts in Rabaul? (I've always used those for FTs to Lunga, Buna, Gili, etc.; are they also effective in a bombardment role?) Or do you siphon off some surface ships from the Air Combat TFs?

2. That early, you only have two or three regiments in Truk, plus one in Rabaul. Do you have enough ground forces to take PM from a determined Allied opponent? The Allies can ship and fly in several regiments in the first week, can they not? Also, PM is that much tougher after 2.30, now that non-combat units (e.g., the AA and ENG units in PM) have inherent defense capabilities. [/B][/QUOTE]

I take all the CAs out of my CV group and take the CLs out of the invasion group. The resulting bombardment group is enough to close down the base within two attacks. Set them to �Do not retire� and they will hit it twice in one day.

For ground forces, there are some that arrive at Truk in the second week. Load those with �Load only troops� so they will load faster and then head them to PM with �Do not retire�. They should get there and finish unloading around the same time your main force finishes unloading because the main force has to unload supply too.

You can stop the Allies from flying in reinforcements by putting LR-CAP over Port Moresby and you can stop any ships from transporting troops in once you get your CVs in the area.

Also, you can force him to put troops at the empty dot next to PM by threatening it too. You should capture that dot because that way no troops escape when PM falls; they all become prisoners. He will have to send troops to defend it. The troops you will use to capture it won�t come from Rabaul but from Shortlands on fast transports. That means you aren�t diluting your invasion strength.

Taking the base with the new 2.30 rule where everyone gets a little assault strength should be harder but, so far, I haven�t noticed that to be the case. Even if your assault fails if you manage to sink the US CVs you will be ahead of the game. In that case you will probably get another chance to invade around June or July, which, while not as nice as a May capture, should still be before allied air power makes itself known.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 67

- 3/19/2003 2:02:54 AM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

<< I take all the CAs out of my CV group and take the CLs out of the invasion group. >>

Ah; pretty much what I figured once I read your post. I suppose this means a bit less flak for your Air Combat TF, though. Of course, IJN flak is no great shakes anyway.

<< For ground forces, there are some that arrive at Truk in the second week. Load those with �Load only troops� >>

*nods* Again, I figured you had in mind something like this. Ideally, I prefer to arrive en masse and overwhelm the enemy. But heck, Bush and Rumsfeld are about to do a "rolling invasion."

<< You can stop the Allies from flying in reinforcements by putting LR-CAP over Port Moresby and you can stop any ships from transporting troops in once you get your CVs in the area >>

Do you fly LRCAP from Lae? Or do you FT a base force into Buna and base Zeroes there? I have tried LRCAP and sweeps from Lae, and the Zeroes get tired awful fast. As you know, you can't always rely on Betties and Nells from Rabaul (or Lae) to intercept incoming Allied ships, and Shok and Zuik take a week to arrive on the scene. Once you cobble together the bombardment group you describe, that also can interdict shipping -- but again that takes a little while.

<< You should capture that dot because that way no troops escape when PM falls; they all become prisoners. >>

Yep.

<< Even if your assault fails if you manage to sink the US CVs you will be ahead of the game. >>

*nods again.* With better pilots, and longer range, the IJN has an advantage here, at least early.

-- Grotius.

(in reply to Deban)

Post #: 68