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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Dec 8, 1941

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RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/5/2015 6:48:26 PM

John 3rd

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Good Questions.

Army Air Choices:
1. Expand Oscars, Lily, and Sally. Be ready for Helen.
2. HEAVILY research Mister Tojo and MISTER FRANK.
3. Produce decent numbers of Recon aircraft.
4. Ditto for Transports.

QUERIES:
1. Your favorite Fighter and WHY?
2. Late-War Army Bombers. Research them heavy? Opinion?
3. Your favorite Recon plane and so how long?
4. Same question with Transports.

Naval Air:
1. EXpand BOTH sides of the ZERO research and building programs.
2. Heavily Research MISTER George.
3. Produce 4EB Bomber in enough quantities to outfit two units: a Chutai and a Daitai.
4. Keep those Betty/Nell going.
5. The second generation of Naval Bombers already come in earlier with the mod so we get Judy and Jill about six months earlier.
6. LOTS of Emily, Jakes, Glens and Tina.

QUERIES:
What are your favorites and why?

I love to run my AAR as a teaching and education commentary for new and experienced players so PLEASE jump in with your opinions...

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(in reply to 1EyedJacks)

Post #: 61

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/5/2015 7:34:52 PM

1EyedJacks

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Fav Fighter: Depends on the time of the game. I like anything with a center-line 20mm or two that has that 50+ accuracy. The Nick-a FB is (I'm hoping) going to be a great bridge in BTS against the allied fighters coming on-line in mid-late 42. A single 20mm - true - but good pilots and high numbers of them should help level things out. Armor should increase their survival chances in combat. SR of 2 means I'll have to rest them more.

Late-War Bombers: I don't spend much time in research.

Recon plane - Babs. Nice range, single engine , good service rating.

Dive Bombers & Lite Bombers that can carry a 500kg or larger payload - I'll research those. Having those on hand against an amphibious assault or deployed in areas where the allies are trying to run supply convoys - mmm-mmm-mmm!

Question: Why build the Lily?

I wish more of the FP could convert to FF. Of course I feel that way in all the scenarios :-).

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Mike

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Post #: 62

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/5/2015 8:06:59 PM

John 3rd

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Well..Michael's computer has died so we're hung up for the moment.

Funny part of our phone conversation was when he asked if I'd ever thought it would be 'possible' for the Japanese to take Oahu. Hmmm....poker face....hmmm....

I know my Japanese Naval Air Frames pretty well but always look for good advice on the army ones. Mike's comments regarding Nick are interesting what do other people think?

As I see it for the army, early-to-mid 42 use Oscar, late-42--mid-43 use Tojo, and then wait for Frank to crown them all. Not too big a fan of Tony. Will build just enough planes to round-out a unit or two and that will be about it.

Transports always leave me scratching my head. I love TINA for the range! Army transport? Bounce around some. I know some like Topsy and others like Tabby. Where do you sit?

EDIT: I forgot to answer the Lily question. Like to use them for ASW. Will train-up 3-4 army units in ASW and place them at choke points to attack SS.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/5/2015 9:07:53 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/6/2015 1:07:07 PM

Lowpe

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I am not a huge Nick fan, I like Zeroes for early anti-bomber efforts.

Not a huge Tojo fan either, no cannons on the IIc. I like the Tony more than you, but you definitely don't need both.

Can't fault the George/Frank combo.

Late war bombers...you are better off r&d fighters, but I would go for the Peggy T and Grace.

Did you talk about NF?

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Post #: 64

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/6/2015 2:00:14 PM

John 3rd

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NF? Night-Fighters? If correct then no I have not.

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Post #: 65

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/6/2015 2:10:38 PM

Lowpe

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Yep, Night Fighters....

Where do you plan on using your 4E bombers the Liz?

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Post #: 66

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/6/2015 6:09:40 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Good Questions.

Army Air Choices:
1. Expand Oscars, Lily, and Sally. Be ready for Helen.
2. HEAVILY research Mister Tojo and MISTER FRANK.
3. Produce decent numbers of Recon aircraft.
4. Ditto for Transports.

I go heavy on transports, because I use them for a lot. If you do too, then consider even putting 30 RnD into the Tabby. It's cheaper than the 4Es and more dependable.

quote:

QUERIES:
1. Your favorite Fighter and WHY?
2. Late-War Army Bombers. Research them heavy? Opinion?
3. Your favorite Recon plane and so how long?
4. Same question with Transports.

The Frank 'r' is awesome. The Ki-83 is a game changer.

The Grace is the best strike plane in game. Period.

The Dinah III is great, but that's not really a choice. No reason to make the Irving when you have the Judy with one engine and the Myrt later.

quote:

Naval Air:
1. EXpand BOTH sides of the ZERO research and building programs.
2. Heavily Research MISTER George.
3. Produce 4EB Bomber in enough quantities to outfit two units: a Chutai and a Daitai.
4. Keep those Betty/Nell going.
5. The second generation of Naval Bombers already come in earlier with the mod so we get Judy and Jill about six months earlier.
6. LOTS of Emily, Jakes, Glens and Tina.

QUERIES:
What are your favorites and why?

I love to run my AAR as a teaching and education commentary for new and experienced players so PLEASE jump in with your opinions...

The Peggy-T is good to get sooner as it'll take some time to train pilots in torpedo dropping.

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Post #: 67

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/6/2015 6:26:25 PM

Sangeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Funny part of our phone conversation was when he asked if I'd ever thought it would be 'possible' for the Japanese to take Oahu. Hmmm....poker face....hmmm....

Are there really no AARs here where this has been done? I've seen one player pull it off but in another forum:

quote:

Ground combat at Pearl Harbor (180,107)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 109555 troops, 1126 guns, 399 vehicles, Assault Value = 3454

Defending force 43869 troops, 967 guns, 1167 vehicles, Assault Value = 520

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese adjusted assault: 4774

Allied adjusted defense: 1615

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Pearl Harbor !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
B-18A Bolo: 2 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 4 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 15 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 1 destroyed
O-47A: 2 destroyed
A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 5 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed
P-26A: 1 destroyed
C-33: 1 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4367 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 365 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 40 disabled
Engineers: 50 destroyed, 32 disabled
Guns lost 17 (4 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 6 (3 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
33439 casualties reported
Squads: 526 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2367 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 138 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 861 (861 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1668 (1668 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 22

You do need a lot of AV to do it, however. But the prize in destroyed VPs is huge to say nothing of the value of just holding the base. The temporary loss of the Akagi certainly hurts but the KB still is the dominant force in the Pacific; you can definitely pull something like this off.

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Post #: 68

RE: Dec 8, 1941 - 4/11/2015 4:08:13 AM

John 3rd

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OK. Michael sent a turn this morning. We are on again.

Will write a detailed report in the morning but it is good to know things are now moving forward. He had a power supply issue with his PC and all appears to be well currently.

Just a tidbit:

KB launches an afternoon strike at Pearl Harbor. The attack consists of 54 Zero and 89 Kate. They are met by 60 American fighters. The Japanese lose ONE Zero and 12 Kate for over two dozen American fighter planes. RESULTS: BB Nevada takes ONE 800 Kg bomb hit. NOTHING ELSE. Oner 70 bombs are dropped and only ONE HIT is obtained...

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Post #: 69

Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/13/2015 12:24:00 AM

John 3rd

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Combat Report
December 9-11, 1941

Michael and I are rolling again. The chain of action and events has been pretty simple and predictable while still fun.

North Pacific
Etorofu
The conglomeration of 1 CL, 12 DD, and 4 APD begin the lift of an SNLF Assault Brigade to the Aleutians. The Assault Brigades are three of the original SNLF units that are brought together and have a small Headquarters company, some lite artillery, and a bit of support added. The unit is shown as a DIVISION due to how the game works since these unit must be able to breakdown to their component SNLF units. In this case three Fast TF are created and each is carrying a good chunk of the units to Unmak, Adak, and Amchitka. They begin loading on the 11th and will depart of the 12th.

Central Pacific
Wake Island
The 12th will see the invasion of Wake by an entire SNLF Assault brigade. The Invasion Force has a BB embedded within it.

Midway
The Midway Invasion Force departs of the 10th for its target. Saipan handled the loading and departure. A second TF will rendezvous and add a CD unit and Base Force. Escort here is another BB as well as three CVE providing CAP.

The Line Islands
A Fast TF depart Jaliut for Christmas Isle. This TF carries an entire Naval Guard unit. A slightly slower TF (AMC and an AP) depart carrying similar unit for Palmyra. A third TF carries a third Naval Guard as well as two Base Forces.

These are all reasonably 'standard' moves for me so I doubt if Michael will become alarmed at this set of moves.

Reinforcements
The 2nd and 56th IDs have departed and are heading for Kwajalein. Support units include an Air Flotilla, 4 large Base Forces, and several engineering units. One cannot forget supply and fuel. Three TF carrying roughly 100,000 Fuel and 125,000 supply have already departed Japan.

KB
As detailed earlier and completely USELESS attack by the CVs is launched on the 9th. The strike of 54 Zero and 89 Kate ran into 60 Fighters. Roughly two dozen American fighters are shot down; however, they do penetrate a terrible escort and shot down 12 Kates. The bombing runs see another 3-4 Kates destroyed in exchange for just ONE 800 Kg Bomb hit on Nevada! What a waste. Only good news here is that I only lose 5 Kate crews. The planes lost is bad but hardly losing any crews is pretty amazing.

Order KB to escort damaged CV Akagi towards the Marshalls. Everything is good on the 9th-10th-11th and so the carriers leave their sister to cover the Line Islands landings. Akagi displays her tough BC origins by shrugging off the Torp hit. Initial damage SYS 11 FLOT 26. As of the 11th it is now SYS 10 FLOT 23. Unfortunately 22 of the FLOT is unrepairable. CRAP! Akagi will get to Kwajalein and then head for home. Terrible to lose her services so quickly.

South Pacific
Don't have many resources here so we have to be careful. Land and take Manus on the 8th. Land at both Madang and Wewak on the 11th. Will move engineers and a pair of Base Forces here so we can establish a forward set of bases. We'll use a Fast TF to take Finschhaven next.

Philippines
Luzon
Land and take Laoag on the 8th by Fast TF. Bring in a second Base Force on the 10th and begin using the base for Fighters and lite bombers.

Will land the 65th Brigade at San Fernando on the 12th. Though escorted by 4 DDs, a group of PT Boats get into the Invasion TF and sink two PG and an AK on the 11th.

The 48th ID will land at Iba next turn.

Mindanao
My emphasis on this island is readily apparent. Grabbed Cotabato on the 7th with Paras and immediately brought in 24 Kate and 12 Zeros. They do great work on the 9th-11th sinking six to seven ships.

Land and capture Zamboanga, Dadjangas, and Surigao. Land at Davao on the 10th. It falls on the 11th. Moving right along...

Eastern DEI
No immediate action as of yet.

Central DEI
A lot of warships move down the east side of Borneo and sink bunches of ships but no invasions as of yet.

KB-3/KB-4
These two Carrier Divisions move south with the enemy shipping. CARDIV2 (KB-3) moves down the east side of Celebes while KB-4 (3 CVL) moves along the eastern side of Borneo. They both do some serious damage to shipping. The bag for Dec 9-11 is: 1 AKL, 1 AK, 2 YO, 1 AV, 2 AO, 1 PC, 2 AM, 1 AD, 2 AG, 1 AVP, 1 AP, 2 AS, and a TK. They shall attack one more day and then CARDIV2 beats feet east to Truk and to reinforce the KB.

Western DEI
Form a large Fast TF to carrying nearly an entire Regiment to grab Palembang. This TF is escorted by another with 2 CL and 5 DDs. Will land at Palembang on the 12th.

Malaya
LOTS of drama and action! I want to make this a FAST campaign!

Port Dickson
The paratroops capture Port Dickson on the 7th but get forced out on the 10th. A second assault occurs on the 11th and mages to stay in the hex keeping the 11th Indian ID (in strategic mode) from getting to Singers. We'll be forced out next turn probably...

Port Swettenham
This base has a Sz-1 AF. Paras take it on the 8th and immediately begin flying in a Naval Guard and two Base Forces. Move a Chutai of Zeros here for CAP. The airlift goes well with no interference.

Kuantan
The base falls on the 9th and immediately bring in fighters, transports, and bombers. A TK Regiment sets out from here to bolster Temoluh.

Temoluh
Amazingly, Temoluh is captured by about 125 paratroopers on the 9th. The eastern RR is cut off. That was a surprising development.

Mersing
Kuantan falls on the 9th and on the same day Mersing gets the 21st ID landing there. The 4th ID adds weight on the 10th when the base falls. These two ID must RACE to Kloung NOW to but off retreat from the north. There is a 50-50 chance of this happening...

Pretty fun theatre of action with moves and counter-moves going on each day. Michael has been forced to commit the British planes here and we have managed to shot down a good number of Buffalo, Hudson, and other lite bombers. He is holding his Swordfish and Vildebreest back for the 'right' moment.

China
Lots of movement but there is a truce in place until January 1st.

SS Operations
9th
Ro-63 Hits AV Langley near Twai Tawi
I-124 hits AK Tantalus near Sibuyan
Ro-33 SINKS TK Gertrude Kellogg at Naga
Ro-34 SINKS TK La Estella Caltex at Lucena

10th
I-164 SINKS AKL Pahang near Sabang
I-127 SINKS AK Si Kiang at Jolo
I-160 SINKS AK Mundra near Port Blair

11th
I-154 SINKS AP Van den Bosch near Bandjermasin

Those are the reports

Thoughts?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/13/2015 1:27:56 AM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/13/2015 7:34:54 PM

Lecivius

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I don't usually comment on AAR's because
1) I'm usually an idiot
2) I like to read most of them

That said, I found to my chagrin that IF you cut off PH, and IF your opponent tries to replace/upgrade squadrons under stress, build forts, upgrade the ports & airfields etc, he will start to get hungry @ June. Something to ponder on.

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Post #: 71

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/13/2015 9:46:06 PM

John 3rd

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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I don't usually comment on AAR's because
1) I'm usually an idiot
2) I like to read most of them

That said, I found to my chagrin that IF you cut off PH, and IF your opponent tries to replace/upgrade squadrons under stress, build forts, upgrade the ports & airfields etc, he will start to get hungry @ June. Something to ponder on.

PLEASE comment---ALWAYS! Sometimes it gets sort of lonely without a few comments tossed into the AAR. Love lots of interaction.

The key to whole Hawaiian Operation is landing at numerous points EVERYWHERE to grab the AFs and force the Americans to spread their counter efforts. It is EASY to take serious losses if just one or two bases are taken. I've tried this once before (long time ago) and learned some serious lessons from it. Minefields will also be essential. I ordered all seven of the ML SS to move to Kwajalein without dropping their pre-war mines. Additional mines shall be carried by the old CLs converted into ML. Got to make it immediately dangerous for any American shipping to enter into one of the Japanese bases.

Figure that Japan has Midway and the Line Islands by the 15-17th, spend 2-3 weeks gathering forces and then attack the outlying islands from both sides.

I recalled all bad I-Boat commanders from the PH area and they all got relieved with 11 new commanders appointed. Those boats left this turn to begin serious patrolling E--NE of PH. There are a dozen I-Boats patrolling off the West Coast presently. A good number of them are Glen boats. Want warning of TFs leaving the West Coast for Hawaii. KB is getting to move east of Hawaii to take a blocking position for that nonsense to stop.

By grabbing Midway and Line Islands I rip Michael's air search screen to shreds. He is outstanding in using his PBY and B-17 as Air Search platforms...

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Post #: 72

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/13/2015 11:00:09 PM

Mike McCreery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I don't usually comment on AAR's because
1) I'm usually an idiot
2) I like to read most of them

That said, I found to my chagrin that IF you cut off PH, and IF your opponent tries to replace/upgrade squadrons under stress, build forts, upgrade the ports & airfields etc, he will start to get hungry @ June. Something to ponder on.

PLEASE comment---ALWAYS! Sometimes it gets sort of lonely without a few comments tossed into the AAR. Love lots of interaction.

The key to whole Hawaiian Operation is landing at numerous points EVERYWHERE to grab the AFs and force the Americans to spread their counter efforts. It is EASY to take serious losses if just one or two bases are taken. I've tried this once before (long time ago) and learned some serious lessons from it. Minefields will also be essential. I ordered all seven of the ML SS to move to Kwajalein without dropping their pre-war mines. Additional mines shall be carried by the old CLs converted into ML. Got to make it immediately dangerous for any American shipping to enter into one of the Japanese bases.

Figure that Japan has Midway and the Line Islands by the 15-17th, spend 2-3 weeks gathering forces and then attack the outlying islands from both sides.

I recalled all bad I-Boat commanders from the PH area and they all got relieved with 11 new commanders appointed. Those boats left this turn to begin serious patrolling E--NE of PH. There are a dozen I-Boats patrolling off the West Coast presently. A good number of them are Glen boats. Want warning of TFs leaving the West Coast for Hawaii. KB is getting to move east of Hawaii to take a blocking position for that nonsense to stop.

By grabbing Midway and Line Islands I rip Michael's air search screen to shreds. He is outstanding in using his PBY and B-17 as Air Search platforms...

What is his counter going to be?

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Post #: 73

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/13/2015 11:10:53 PM

Sangeli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The key to whole Hawaiian Operation is landing at numerous points EVERYWHERE to grab the AFs and force the Americans to spread their counter efforts. It is EASY to take serious losses if just one or two bases are taken. I've tried this once before (long time ago) and learned some serious lessons from it. Minefields will also be essential. I ordered all seven of the ML SS to move to Kwajalein without dropping their pre-war mines. Additional mines shall be carried by the old CLs converted into ML. Got to make it immediately dangerous for any American shipping to enter into one of the Japanese bases.

Figure that Japan has Midway and the Line Islands by the 15-17th, spend 2-3 weeks gathering forces and then attack the outlying islands from both sides.

I think that the need to grab a bunch of bases is dependent on how quickly you want to move to actually taking Pearl Harbor. Since you are planning on laying a long siege, you'd be well served in spending more resources in getting sufficient engineers, base units, etc, in the Hawaiian islands. At the same time, I think you need to invest time and effort into suppressing PH with the KB and BBs sometime near the end of January when you start occupying and building up those bases. That way you can pull out the KB at a time when the Allies won't be able to land a counterblow giving you more time to establish those critical bases. Destroying those limited 4E on the ground at PH with BB bombardment is especially important I think. Otherwise things could fall apart when you withdraw the KB.

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Post #: 74

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 12:19:21 AM

Alikchi2

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Solid start. Keep it rolling. Pro moves in Malaya.

What IDs do you have slated for Hawaii?

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Post #: 75

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:01:08 AM

John 3rd

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Currently the 2nd and 56th are approaching the Marshalls. I will be buying out the highly experienced 20th ID from Korea within 5-6 days. They form the second echelon of troops. Beyond that we have 4-5 SNLF Assault Brigades and one IJA Inf Reg.

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Post #: 76

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:04:17 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The key to whole Hawaiian Operation is landing at numerous points EVERYWHERE to grab the AFs and force the Americans to spread their counter efforts. It is EASY to take serious losses if just one or two bases are taken. I've tried this once before (long time ago) and learned some serious lessons from it. Minefields will also be essential. I ordered all seven of the ML SS to move to Kwajalein without dropping their pre-war mines. Additional mines shall be carried by the old CLs converted into ML. Got to make it immediately dangerous for any American shipping to enter into one of the Japanese bases.

Figure that Japan has Midway and the Line Islands by the 15-17th, spend 2-3 weeks gathering forces and then attack the outlying islands from both sides.

I think that the need to grab a bunch of bases is dependent on how quickly you want to move to actually taking Pearl Harbor. Since you are planning on laying a long siege, you'd be well served in spending more resources in getting sufficient engineers, base units, etc, in the Hawaiian islands. At the same time, I think you need to invest time and effort into suppressing PH with the KB and BBs sometime near the end of January when you start occupying and building up those bases. That way you can pull out the KB at a time when the Allies won't be able to land a counterblow giving you more time to establish those critical bases. Destroying those limited 4E on the ground at PH with BB bombardment is especially important I think. Otherwise things could fall apart when you withdraw the KB.

Completely concur. Don't want to make the landings without the engineering support WITH ME at the time. Weighting a little bit is far better then going in immediately and giving the enemy a chance to pick up the pieces and counter before everything arrives.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't want to use BBs to bombard PH do I? Doesn't the CD units there have 15" guns? Except for a landing, that scares the tar out of me...

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Post #: 77

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:13:06 AM

DOCUP

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Your spies are short an inch. But most of you men have heard that before.

16in guns are the biggest.

This is nuts but I am enjoying this.

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Post #: 78

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:16:04 AM

Lowpe

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+1 on grabbing as many bases as you can and getting the airfields operational.

Are you prepping any forces for the bases there or waiting for Michael to spot your forces first?

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Post #: 79

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 12:02:20 PM

John 3rd

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We would face 16" CD Batteries? YIKES! I am NOT SCARED!

DOCUP/Lowpe: YES---this is NUTS!

All I have to do is say BANZAI!!!

Course the Japanese DID seriously examine the possibility of an invasion back in 1942, Right?

NO. No prepping until we storm a shore. There shall be no warning through intelligence (if possible).

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/14/2015 1:03:20 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 1:33:05 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

+1 on grabbing as many bases as you can and getting the airfields operational.

Are you prepping any forces for the bases there or waiting for Michael to spot your forces first?

No prep needed in the invasion bonus time. Still insane though.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 81

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 2:47:46 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

I'm just throwing this out there, since I thought about it a while after I got my keister kicked. You take the outer islands, build the bases up a bit, lay siege to PH. Allied fighter production at the start is for squat, so some sweeps to clear the skies & establish air superiority. Begin aerial bombardment. Don't get greedy, keep it going for 2-3 months. Pretty much everything already mentioned. But here is my thought.

Don't you loose supply production if the base has opposition troops in it? I ask because I know PH will get hungry in June or so. You want to do all you can to exacerbate that issue. If my thought is correct, then you want to push hard to get troops ashore as soon as you safely can (relatively). Don't worry about attacking, keep your invasion force in supply from barges, and in Bombardment mode or even just static. This will also allow you to add more forces later after your bonus period is gone.

Just brain storming. But after John took Oz, and after I watched PH starve in my game, I always wondered if Japan could have taken the DEI & parts of Burma and then left the IO to hang while Japan took Oz & PH. Not sure if there is enough there for an A/V, but I would hate to be the allies left with that mess in the pacific.

Of course, if I am wrong in my assumption, this whole point is worthless.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 82

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:19:08 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 83

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 3:44:12 PM

Mike McCreery

Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline

As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

You never answered my question about what your opponent was going to do John. Dont you know? You should... ;]

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(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 84

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 5:44:58 PM

Sangeli

Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't want to use BBs to bombard PH do I? Doesn't the CD units there have 15" guns? Except for a landing, that scares the tar out of me...

Well I've seen good results out of bombarding the base. CD guns have a tough time getting a good shot on those BBs though mines can be an issue. The invasion forces will inevitably get hard from the CD guns though. Best to bring lots of expendable merchant ships for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

Well you forget the fact that Europe was put on the back burner while the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with. Most of the resources the US could spare went to the Pacific until Midway. I'm not sure how much an invasion of Hawaii would really change the US response in the first 6 months compared to reality. But without a Midway like victory the Allies are already getting an unfair deal; they get less resources because of a strategic victory that never occurred in their reality. The biggest long term effect from an invasion of PH would probably be the amount of CVs the US produced in 44-45 but that could also have happened in the far more common event that the USN CVs are obliterated by the KB early on. Maybe it makes sense to have a small reinforcement invasion package for Hawaii but there is a reason why the designers made reinforcement packages for other invasions but not this one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

I could not disagree more on this one. The loss of Pearl Harbor is huge. The shipyard alone is invaluable. The entire Allied position in the SoPac is at risk with the Japanese in command of Pearl Harbor. How would the Allies secure their own lines of communications? Maybe if the USN CVs can deal a blow to the KB then PH isn't such a danger in Japanese hands. But if the Japanese manage to secure a sizeable edge over the USN, then it can cause all sorts of havoc with raiding.

(in reply to John 3rd)

Post #: 85

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 7:15:45 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

The Europe First strategy was, IMHO, the correct one historically. It did make it hard on poor Joe out west. And I'm not to sanguine on that strategy changing if Hawaii falls. The panic that Japan would invade the CONUS did not start to fade until Midway. And that event only allowed a small shift in timetables. To put this in perspective the game mechanics follow what we all agree on was an event nothing short of miraculous. Allied production was ramped down once superiority was achieved in the Pacific. The Japanese side is under no such constraint. IMHO in game the allies are hampered at both the start AND the end because of historical events that cannot be replicated in game play.

But, one must remember in the final view this is a game. The goal is to win, or at least have a grand old time playing.

<edit> I am sorry John, I am coming close to a hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled AAR.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 4/14/2015 8:20:27 PM >

(in reply to Sangeli)

Post #: 86

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 8:00:11 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't want to use BBs to bombard PH do I? Doesn't the CD units there have 15" guns? Except for a landing, that scares the tar out of me...

Well I've seen good results out of bombarding the base. CD guns have a tough time getting a good shot on those BBs though mines can be an issue. The invasion forces will inevitably get hard from the CD guns though. Best to bring lots of expendable merchant ships for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

Well you forget the fact that Europe was put on the back burner while the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with. Most of the resources the US could spare went to the Pacific until Midway. I'm not sure how much an invasion of Hawaii would really change the US response in the first 6 months compared to reality. But without a Midway like victory the Allies are already getting an unfair deal; they get less resources because of a strategic victory that never occurred in their reality. The biggest long term effect from an invasion of PH would probably be the amount of CVs the US produced in 44-45 but that could also have happened in the far more common event that the USN CVs are obliterated by the KB early on. Maybe it makes sense to have a small reinforcement invasion package for Hawaii but there is a reason why the designers made reinforcement packages for other invasions but not this one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

I could not disagree more on this one. The loss of Pearl Harbor is huge. The shipyard alone is invaluable. The entire Allied position in the SoPac is at risk with the Japanese in command of Pearl Harbor. How would the Allies secure their own lines of communications? Maybe if the USN CVs can deal a blow to the KB then PH isn't such a danger in Japanese hands. But if the Japanese manage to secure a sizeable edge over the USN, then it can cause all sorts of havoc with raiding.

I completely agree that there would be little impact in the first six months. What we had to work with was what we had to work with. It's the huge impetus that would have followed that first six months as we reacted and likely over reacted to the incursion.
It wouldn't mean having any better means to oppose the move from the outset, but it would likely mean a big move up of the build up in the Pacific and yes I also agree it would likely have led to even greater carrier production.
None of these things get modeled in the game. The only reaction is to an invasion of the mainland not counting Canada and we know all JFBs avoid that trigger. Don't have a lot of time today to defend my position. Sorry guys.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Sangeli)

Post #: 87

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/14/2015 10:59:22 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

No hijack occurring. This is a solid and GOOD discussion. My view of the American timetable is that nearly everything went to the Pacific early on. BTS already accepts a more desperate American position by allowing all those early conversion to CVEs, additional CVLs, etc... This move will simply make reality the fear that the US of A would have had if a serious attempt was made to take Hawaii.

What will Michael do?

His response will be slow, concentrated, and--in his view--decisive. WHAT is it? Don't know but here is an important element to think on. He absolutely LOVES to get every ALLIED Flattop vessel into the same TF. Look at what he was doing against Cribtop. He will work to get everything together.

My HOPE is to make him put a TON of miles onto those ships. We'll be decisively moving against Hawaii by early-January. He'll need--or feel the compulsion--to move the 'Death Star' in that direction. This is why I will wait until the bonus is nearly done before I launch the OFFENSIVE IN THE WEST. Gang. DAI NIPPON shall also launch a major offensive in the west. India? Ceylon? Diego Garcia? Eastern India? I am going that way.

The hope is to see-saw him back-and-forth and make things look really MURKY. I shall begin immediate PREP--once Singers Falls--for one or two of these targets. I was denied a chance to try it versus Cribtop and Michael will know this. My thinking is he'll see that prep as a decoy as I punch Hawaii. Well...what if it ISN'T??!!!

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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 88

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/18/2015 8:37:57 AM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

no updates, Sir ?

(in reply to John 3rd)

Post #: 89

RE: Dec 9-11, 1941 - 4/18/2015 1:47:20 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

Been busy this week. My store did a school district fundraiser for the the scholarship fund and we raised about $6-700. We donated a dollar for every footlong sold so you see that is a BUNCH of footlong sandwiches. Worked 33 hours in three days (Wed-Thurs-Fri) with Thursday being a 14+ hour day. NASTY! Good cause though. If it hadn't rained we would have done far better but oh, well...

I have to go in and put the delivery away and then have a WONDERFUL thing. Am going to be all alone in the house for 3-4 hours. CANNOT WAIT. Will run the turn and do an extensive update.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/18/2015 2:48:22 PM >

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Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to seille)

Post #: 90

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Slitherine

RE: Dec 8, 1941