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Low Level Bombing - 4/16/2015 6:05:17 PM

linrom

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline

I have a question about low level non-naval bombing. I believe that the game engine uses GROUND LEVEL skill for bombing at altitudes greater than 1,000, although there is a penalty for flying at lower than 6,000 feet.

Am I correct?

For a mission to use LOW LEVEL bombing skill, the altitude must be at 1,000 or lower?

Post #: 1

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 12:32:36 AM

towtow59_MatrixForum

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/17/2014
Status: offline

I believe that it should be the same as for naval bombing, so I think off-hand is below 5-6 thousand feet.

(in reply to linrom)

Post #: 2

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 3:28:16 AM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

Training bombers at 5k' increases their GrdB/NavB skill, so I assume training them at <5k' increases the LowB/LowN skill. Training at 100' increases the Strafe skill.

I'm not entirely sure what the cut-off level is, b/c I always train/execute low missions at 1k'. All bombers except Attack Bombers use their extended-range bomb-load for low-level attacks, ABs use their full load & will also Strafe the target. Expect heavy losses to flak & CAP!

(in reply to towtow59_MatrixForum)

Post #: 3

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 1:39:42 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline

All level bombers use their extended range bomb load for attacks under 5K???? So if the attack is at 5K and above, normal load? Do I have this right?

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Post #: 4

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 1:54:11 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

I am mostly addressing the in-game morale hit.

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Post #: 5

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 2:51:08 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

All level bombers use their extended range bomb load for attacks under 5K???? So if the attack is at 5K and above, normal load? Do I have this right?

Yes, all non-attack type level bombers use the reduced bomb load when bombing ships below 6k. Attack type bombers (late B25s for example) use their full load and when set below 6k will always drop down to 100 feet and strafe and bomb. The strafing should suppress return AA fire. Fighters and fighter bombers when set to naval attack at 1,000 feet and lower will drop down and attack at 100 feet. They will strafe but I do not think they suppress flak. At all other heights fighters level bomb.

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Post #: 6

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 7:24:48 PM

dr.hal

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Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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Thanks for the explanation crsutton, so just to be sure, you are talking only about naval targets, not LCUs or ports, airfields, etc.... Is that right????

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Post #: 7

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 8:21:54 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
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From: United States
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This is and always has been a very confusing issue.

Non attack bombers below 6k are penalized for a "low" attack, but the LowNav skill is not trained, and presumably not used(?) unless your setting is 1k.

I have set attack bombers at 1k and they have attacked at 1k. They only strafe like fighters if I set them to 100 ft. I have not seen attack bombers drop from a 1k setting to strafe at 100 ft.

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Post #: 8

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 9:05:34 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Thanks for the explanation crsutton, so just to be sure, you are talking only about naval targets, not LCUs or ports, airfields, etc.... Is that right????

Yes, except attack bombers when set to below 6k will drop down to attack "any" target at 100 feet. They will suppress AA at bases as well. (but not units outside of bases that I know of) However, well defended bases can still chew them up so I rarely use attack bombers below 6k to attack bases. They are almost just as effective at 7,000 feet and much more protected from flak. They still are great flying low in open terrain against units in the open. They can mess up those small Japanese tank regiments. Strafing is way under powered in the game and really does little damage. It is the bombs that do the damage even at very low altitudes. I would train low bombing skills first over strafing.

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Post #: 9

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 9:12:48 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

This is and always has been a very confusing issue.

Non attack bombers below 6k are penalized for a "low" attack, but the LowNav skill is not trained, and presumably not used(?) unless your setting is 1k.

I have set attack bombers at 1k and they have attacked at 1k. They only strafe like fighters if I set them to 100 ft. I have not seen attack bombers drop from a 1k setting to strafe at 100 ft.

Hans I tested this thoroughly years ago but there have been many patches since them. However, all I have ever seen is that attack bomber set anywhere from 5k down, drop down to attack at 100 feet. It has been this way since day one of WITP. Have not looked lately but as far as I know fighters and FB still drop down when set to 1000 feet. I am not sure about your statement about low nav only having an effect at 1000 feet. I always thought it impacted all naval attacks below 5k. What is your source for that? Against light naval targets I always set medium bombers to 1,000 feet. The reduced bomb load is compensated by better accuracy. But hardly ever bomb a land base with anything at low altitude. Flak just make is not worth it.

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Post #: 10

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/17/2015 10:17:03 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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Thanks crsutton.... I agree with Hans, this is all very confusing. I wish the manual would have some definitive answers. I'm looking over the changes since the manual's publication and can't find anything on this....

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Post #: 11

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 4:55:31 AM

jmalter

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My Dutch 139WH-3s don't strafe, but they aren't AB-type & only have 1 F-mounted .30 cal MG. But execute a low attack w/ an AB group (say B-25H w/ 8 x .50 cal MG & 1 x 75mm cannon), they will definitely strafe after making their bombing run. Dunno if they drop to 100' for the strafing run.

Fighters at 100' seem to be the only thing that will attack Japanese MTBs, ABs don't ever target them.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 4/18/2015 5:56:25 AM >

(in reply to dr.hal)

Post #: 12

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 11:59:38 AM

HansBolter

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Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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CR you are correct. I was mistaken. I was confusing my B25Cs as attack bombers. The first attack bomber in the B25 series is the B25D1. My reference to the Low skill only being used at 1k was followed by a question mark. I am certain Low skill is only trained at 1k. I have tested it extensively. That leads me to believe the skill use may not be directly coupled to the penalty.

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Post #: 13

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 1:38:50 PM

urtel

Posts: 125
Joined: 9/6/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

My Dutch 139WH-3s don't strafe, but they aren't AB-type & only have 1 F-mounted .30 cal MG. But execute a low attack w/ an AB group (say B-25H w/ 8 x .50 cal MG & 1 x 75mm cannon), they will definitely strafe after making their bombing run. Dunno if they drop to 100' for the strafing run.

Fighters at 100' seem to be the only thing that will attack Japanese MTBs, ABs don't ever target them.

They do, u just need to train then alot:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Singapore at 50,84

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 73 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 8
A-20G Havoc x 14
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 13
P-51B Mustang x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
MTB G-154
MTB G-160, Shell hits 4
MTB G-162, Shell hits 19, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
MTB G-157, Shell hits 10
MTB G-159, Shell hits 6, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
MTB G-10, Shell hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
Naval Attack: 4 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Langkawi at 49,72

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 9
A-20G Havoc x 8
P-40K Warhawk x 14

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Kamikaze Maru, Shell hits 16, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Toan Maru, Shell hits 5, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Nikkai Maru, Shell hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
Naval Attack: 4 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Or maybe i'm overdoing with bombing and strafing from low level, this is just first 2 months of 44' :

combatreport_440201.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440201.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440201.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440201.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440201.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440201.txt: 8 x B-25H Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 8 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440202.txt: 8 x B-25H Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 8 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440203.txt: 8 x B-25H Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 8 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440204.txt: 8 x B-25H Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 8 x B-25H Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440206.txt: 9 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440207.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440207.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440207.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440207.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440207.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440208.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440208.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440208.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440208.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440208.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440209.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440209.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440209.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440209.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440209.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440210.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440210.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440210.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440210.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440210.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440212.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440212.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440212.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440212.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440212.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440213.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440213.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440213.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440213.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440213.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440214.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440214.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440214.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440214.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440214.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440215.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440215.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440215.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440215.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440215.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440216.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440216.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440216.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440216.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440216.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440217.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440217.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440217.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440217.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440217.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440218.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440218.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440218.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440218.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440218.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440219.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440219.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440219.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440219.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440219.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440221.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440221.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440221.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440221.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440221.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440222.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440222.txt: 12 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440222.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440222.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440222.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440223.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440223.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440223.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440223.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440223.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440224.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440224.txt: 10 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440224.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440224.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440224.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440225.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440225.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440225.txt: 8 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440225.txt: 11 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440225.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440226.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440226.txt: 8 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440226.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440226.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440226.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440227.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440227.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440227.txt: 10 x A-20G Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440227.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440227.txt: 12 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440228.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440228.txt: 10 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440228.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440229.txt: 11 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440229.txt: 9 x B-25G Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
combatreport_440229.txt: 11 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low l

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 14

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 2:34:55 PM

linrom

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

CR you are correct. I was mistaken. I was confusing my B25Cs as attack bombers. The first attack bomber in the B25 series is the B25D1. My reference to the Low skill only being used at 1k was followed by a question mark. I am certain Low skill is only trained at 1k. I have tested it extensively. That leads me to believe the skill use may not be directly coupled to the penalty.

So it appears that the only time that LOW LEVEL BOMBING skill is used is at 1000? At an altitude greater than 1000, NORMAL BOMBING SKILL is used and at 100ft, strafing skill is used which MIGHT also include dropping of bombs by fighter planes and specialized ATTACK planes? Or is the game so convoluted that bombers, or ONLY attack bombers and fighters can use LOW LEVEL SKILL at altitude lower than 6000, which can only be trained at 1000?

The only way to know for sure is for a developer to advise!

The actual load is irrelevant. Reduced loads were implemented because of greater accuracy flying at low levels.

< Message edited by linrom -- 4/18/2015 4:05:53 PM >

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 15

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 4:10:33 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

CR you are correct. I was mistaken. I was confusing my B25Cs as attack bombers. The first attack bomber in the B25 series is the B25D1. My reference to the Low skill only being used at 1k was followed by a question mark. I am certain Low skill is only trained at 1k. I have tested it extensively. That leads me to believe the skill use may not be directly coupled to the penalty.

So it appears that the only time that LOW LEVEL BOMBING skill is used is at 1000? At an altitude greater than 1000, NORMAL BOMBING SKILL is used and at 100ft, strafing skill is used which MIGHT also include dropping of bombs by fighter planes and specialized ATTACK planes? Or is the game so convoluted that bombers, or ONLY attack bombers and fighters can use LOW LEVEL SKILL at altitude lower than 6000, which can only be trained at 1000?

The only way to know for sure is for a developer to advise!

The actual load is irrelevant. Reduced loads were implemented because of greater accuracy flying at low levels.

No, you have seen my prior posts. Low naval and low altitude skills are used below 6k for all aircraft dropping bombs. (Hans thinks that low nav my only impact bombing at 1,000 feet and below but I think otherwise, and perhaps someone will sort this for us.) However, I pretty much only low naval attack at 1,000 feet so it really does not matter so much to me.

Any bomber can be set to bomb at 100 feet. Many players ban this for heavy bombers. Only attack bombers will drop down to 100 feet to bomb and strafe if set to 1,000-5,000 feet. All others bomb from the altitude they are set at. Fighters and Fighter bombers will drop down and strafe if they are set to 1,000 feet but will just level bomb if set to any other altitude. (using low skills if below 6k and high skills if at 6k and higher).

Unless it has been changed in a patch only attack bombers will suppress flak. No other plane suppresses flak.

In game terms, I rarely use any bomber to attack ground targets at low altitude. My tests years ago showed that the increase in accuracy is minimal compared to the losses you will take and strafing is too under powered to make it worth it. Americans are always starved for medium bombers. I will drop low when the unit is in the open and I know it does not have much flak and there are no fighters to deal with. (so, rarely) I bomb at 7-9,000 feet 90% of the time with all my bombers.

Naval attack, I do it when I only expect to incur light to medium AA and like 1,000 feet for level bombers and like the look of it when the attack bombers go in at 100 feet. Nothing worse than watching your B25-Cs attack BBs at 1000 feet. I leave ship killing to the Navy and use my army bombers to close air bases.

Results may vary for you.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to linrom)

Post #: 16

RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 4:23:14 PM

linrom

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/20/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

CR you are correct. I was mistaken. I was confusing my B25Cs as attack bombers. The first attack bomber in the B25 series is the B25D1. My reference to the Low skill only being used at 1k was followed by a question mark. I am certain Low skill is only trained at 1k. I have tested it extensively. That leads me to believe the skill use may not be directly coupled to the penalty.

So it appears that the only time that LOW LEVEL BOMBING skill is used is at 1000? At an altitude greater than 1000, NORMAL BOMBING SKILL is used and at 100ft, strafing skill is used which MIGHT also include dropping of bombs by fighter planes and specialized ATTACK planes? Or is the game so convoluted that bombers, or ONLY attack bombers and fighters can use LOW LEVEL SKILL at altitude lower than 6000, which can only be trained at 1000?

The only way to know for sure is for a developer to advise!

The actual load is irrelevant. Reduced loads were implemented because of greater accuracy flying at low levels.

No, you have seen my prior posts. Low naval and low altitude skills are used below 6k for all aircraft dropping bombs. (Hans thinks that low nav my only impact bombing at 1,000 feet and below but I think otherwise, and perhaps someone will sort this for us.) However, I pretty much only low naval attack at 1,000 feet so it really does not matter so much to me.

Any bomber can be set to bomb at 100 feet. Many players ban this for heavy bombers. Only attack bombers will drop down to 100 feet to bomb and strafe if set to 1,000-5,000 feet. All others bomb from the altitude they are set at. Fighters and Fighter bombers will drop down and strafe if they are set to 1,000 feet but will just level bomb if set to any other altitude. (using low skills if below 6k and high skills if at 6k and higher).

Unless it has been changed in a patch only attack bombers will suppress flak. No other plane suppresses flak.

In game terms, I rarely use any bomber to attack ground targets at low altitude. My tests years ago showed that the increase in accuracy is minimal compared to the losses you will take and strafing is too under powered to make it worth it. Americans are always starved for medium bombers. I will drop low when the unit is in the open and I know it does not have much flak and there are no fighters to deal with. (so, rarely) I bomb at 7-9,000 feet 90% of the time with all my bombers.

Naval attack, I do it when I only expect to incur light to medium AA and like 1,000 feet for level bombers and like the look of it when the attack bombers go in at 100 feet. Nothing worse than watching your B25-Cs attack BBs at 1000 feet. I leave ship killing to the Navy and use my army bombers to close air bases.

Results may vary for you.

If you look at GROUND LEVEL bombers flying at 2,000-5000 the skill level that is increased is GROUND LEVEL AND NOT LOW GROUND LEVEL BOMBING. So when does LOW GROUND SKILL come into play?

The main reason why one might USE low level ground bombing is to avoid CAP because even a pea-shooter will slaughter Japanese bombers regardless of durability.!!!!

< Message edited by linrom -- 4/18/2015 5:26:47 PM >

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 6:58:15 PM

crsutton

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Good point and perhaps it has changed. Maybe some more testing is called for. I ran my tests five or six years ago.

Yeah, a low attack will avoid CAP on a lot of occasions and I do go in low at times. But if I suspect CAP, I avoid attacking without cover as if the CAP does bounce you then you are screwed. At least in DA Babes AA guns are much more effective. If there is much AA, low level just gets you banged up. I hit units in the open with low level. But since I almost never bomb without escort or LRCAP, I tend to stick to altitudes above 7k.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/18/2015 9:26:31 PM

Anthropoid

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So simple question: What altitude do you set Divebombers and torpedo bombers at (when engaging in Naval Attack)?

Also what about recon?

For Ground attack level bombers I try to use a wide range of altitudes ranging from 6000 up to max. I figure if my opponent cannot predict what altitude they will come at it is good for me.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/19/2015 1:21:33 AM

jmalter

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hi Anthropoid,

both DBs & TBs use a special attack routine, where they fly in at the specified altitude, then 'peel off' for their attack. DBs release their bombs at 2-4k', TBs launch their torps at 200'. This means they get flak at both high & low altitudes.

DBs must be set to 10-15k' in order to use their most-effective attack, above 15k' they level-bomb, below 10k' they glide-bomb. For best coordination of a combined strike from CV airgroups, set all the planes (DBs, TBs & Fighter Escorts) to the same altitude, this increases the chance that all your stuff arrives over the target together.

For Recon, I generally go as high as possible, w/ a goodly %age of the airgroup set to Rest.

Your use of a wide variety of alt for Ground Attack is quite right against a human opponent, but not so much vs. the AI. I get the impression that the AI generally doesn't assign altitudes of >20k'. Also, I rarely use dive-mode for DBs attacking a ground target, I'll go at 16k' or higher for a level-bombing attack - fewer losses to flak, or from running into those pesky barrage balloons.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/19/2015 4:23:24 PM

Anthropoid

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Hmmm, maybe obsolete info left over from WiTP or maybe I just got it wrong, but . . . I was under the impression recons get better intell at lower altitudes, down to some theoretical minimum.

I've been using them a lot at 6K, 4K and even 3K feet. I seem to get lots of intell at 4K, as in, a single aircraft might even gather all the salient information about a location in one sortie. 6K seems fine too, though perhaps a bit more erratic in terms of intell gathering. 3K they definitely seem to get chewed on by flak and/or fighters, though I rarely see a recon get attacked by fighters anyway.

Good to know about the Dive and TB! 10,000 FTW!

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/19/2015 8:13:21 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Hmmm, maybe obsolete info left over from WiTP or maybe I just got it wrong, but . . . I was under the impression recons get better intell at lower altitudes, down to some theoretical minimum.

I've been using them a lot at 6K, 4K and even 3K feet. I seem to get lots of intell at 4K, as in, a single aircraft might even gather all the salient information about a location in one sortie. 6K seems fine too, though perhaps a bit more erratic in terms of intell gathering. 3K they definitely seem to get chewed on by flak and/or fighters, though I rarely see a recon get attacked by fighters anyway.

Good to know about the Dive and TB! 10,000 FTW!

You probably do but OP losses for Allied recons would be unacceptable at that level. You just don't have enough to squander in the first half of the war. High altitude passes with a camera equipped plane generally get most of the dope you need in one or two passes-given decent weather.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/20/2015 2:47:41 AM

Anthropoid

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So, one or two recons at low altitude to get the dope, then go up to highest possible alttude, gotcha!

{assuming of course it is a location at which little enemy presence is expected}

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/3/2016 12:06:23 PM

Yaab

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Thread resurrection.

Does anyone know what is the approach altitude for level bombers set to attack a base at 100 feet?

I have been mucking recently with a A-20 Havoc group attacking Lae from Port Moresby at 100 feet. As designed, I suffer a loadout penalty, flying with just 1 x 500lb GP bomb, and a morale hit (after each mission morale drops by 7-9 points, then stabilises at barely 20 points). Yet, each time when I attack the base I seem to suffer flak twice in combat animation - once over the base, and another time when airplanes conduct strafing at 100 feet. When I bomb at 2000-4000 feet altitude, I seem to suffer flak only once. Basically, at a 2000-4000 feet attack, I get 0-15 flak bursts in combat animation, and 20-25 flak bursts at 100 feet attack. There are 14 heavy (75mm and 10cm) AA guns at the base.

It seems level bombers at 100 feet behave the same as dive bombers and torpedo bombers -- they suffer flak both at approach altitude and release altitude. If so, this is another reason not to attack bases/unit at 100 feet if there is AA present.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/3/2016 3:27:11 PM >

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/3/2016 2:49:26 PM

Yaab

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Just tested again. This time the Japanese BF had 18 x 7.7mm AAMGs as it sole AA defence.

Results:

1) Bombers suffer only one phase of flak, namely during their strafing run. Bursts ranged from 5 to 12 bursts per combat animation. This means Havoc approach altitude must be at least 2000 feet, above the 1700 feet ceiling of the AAMGs.

2) One Havoc (durability 35, armor 1) was DESTROYED by AAMG fire. The pilot was killed. This was during the last test when only 4 Havocs flew due to low group's morale (30+) and AAMG fire was concentrated on individual bombers.

The above means that heavy flak guns (75-120mm) fire TWICE at bombers attacking at 100 feet - at the approach altitude (which must be at least 2000 feet or more) and during the strafing run at 100 feet. This is contrary to what JWE had posted in flak threads about the fire of heavy AA guns being less effective at lowest altitudes.It also beats the purpose of 100 feet missions, which should be approaching at tree-top level to cut down on aircraft exposure time to enemy flak. You worst choice it to go at a base with heavy AA guns at 100 feet.

AAMGs fire ONCE, but still can kill durable aircraft.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/3/2016 4:37:36 PM

crsutton

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Interesting but I just do not fool with low level attacks vs any but the weakest targets. In fact with the latest patch and the added strength of AA, I find that I have moved my bombers up to over 10,000 feet against defended bases. In stock, I just set every bomber at 7,000 feet and suffered very few flak losses. Now that does not work so well. I think AA is working much closer to normal now. Thanks to some hard work by others.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/3/2016 4:57:58 PM

Yaab

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I agree.

You can still fool around with durable bombers vs AAMG-only LCU provided you can saturate their defences (ie 18 bombers vs 18 AAMGs, or 30 bombers vs 18 AAMGs etc.). In all other situations you need to use attack bombers to suppres TWO phases of flak during 100 feet missions.

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RE: Low Level Bombing - 4/5/2016 7:28:05 AM

Yaab

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One more thing.

Since the approach altitude for 100 feet attacks must be at least 2000 feet and probably more, I can NEVER evade CAP patrolling at 6000 feet over the base, even if the detection time is in range of 2-4 minutes. The CAP always intercepts approaching aircraft and gets the dive bonus. Now, I still remember my US P-35s sallying once from Clark Field to attack Jap ships at San Fernando at 100 feet. They got intercepted by Zeros on LRCAP and butchered, with a tune of 10-15 P-35s destroyed. That was in 2012 and I wondered how the CAP could actually find my fighters attacking at 100 feet. Now I know the altitude difference between the CAP and the attackers was not 5900 feet, but more like 2000-3000 feet.

Wish that was explained in the manual.

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