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Tutorial - 4/23/2015 3:17:23 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Can some kind person write up a real tutorial, walking a noob through the starter scenario please? The question marks are fine for explaining why units are in their current formation and so forth, but are useless in explaining how to actually play the game. (I know, RTFM, but I was hoping to go through the starter scenario first).

For example, after opening the OOB window, it took me five minutes to figure out how to close it again. I finally got it by accident as I was getting ready to report it as a bug.
Post #: 1
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 3:44:26 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		@tgb, Erik does a decent job of giving a lot of information about the tutorial scenario and the mechanics and UI in this long video stream

https://youtu.be/vmaxMMrWb9A

Worth a watch, if you have the time to put into it, especially for us manual reading dodgers! :)

It helped me get up to a certain level of competency without having to delve too much into the manual.

Also the Historical Gamer did a shorter session too

https://youtu.be/EzEUkfmp6pI

< Message edited by spelk -- 4/23/2015 4:45:42 PM >

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(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 2
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 3:59:03 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I watched part of both of those - in fact that's what got me off the fence. But I was looking for something a little more hands on.

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Post #: 3
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 4:22:32 PM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline 		Erik's video is very good, and I really appreciate that, but it frustrates me to no end when developers do not provide a comprehensive tutorial for their own game.

Even something like what Battlefront does with their Combat Mission games - their tutorials are written in documentation, actually a complete separate tutorial manual, and step you through what to do in a complete scenario, complete with screenshots.

If an interactive tutorial can't be made, fine, but at least write up a tutorial walkthrough document. The Combat Mission tutorials are very well done, and Matrix's own Flashpoint Campaigns also has an excellent manual style tutorial.

This game is good, but I am very disappointed in the lack of a comprehensive tutorial of any kind. The manual for this game is top notch, so they definitely have the writers who can do something like this.

< Message edited by jglazier -- 4/23/2015 5:24:41 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 4:35:02 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		A written guide to the scenario along the lines of the one someone did for WitE would be great. Some of us really do need our hands held sometimes, even if it comes down to "Move this unit HERE, Dummy. Here's why."

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Post #: 5
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 4:36:25 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		The game is not all that complex to learn and adding an interactive tutorial is a big task in this case. We felt the starter scenario tips would be enough to get a player started and the manual would take them the rest of the way. With that said, feedback noted and we'll make sure we incorporate one into any future BAB release.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 6
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 4:39:22 PM   
Clinchrifles

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 4/16/2015
Status: offline 		One of the very few shortcomings with this game is some vagueness in the manual. Its fair to say that if thats my only complaint then bab is a well made game.

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Post #: 7
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 4:58:20 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The game is not all that complex to learn and adding an interactive tutorial is a big task in this case. We felt the starter scenario tips would be enough to get a player started and the manual would take them the rest of the way. With that said, feedback noted and we'll make sure we incorporate one into any future BAB release.

Regards,

- Erik




I've no doubt that once I read the manual I'll learn the game. But I wanted to plaayy first. [Sticks thumb in mouth and sulks]

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Post #: 8
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 5:48:23 PM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline 		It doesn't even have to be interactive. A well written manual style tutorial like Flashpoint Campaigns and the Combat Mission series would be excellent, and immensely helpful.


(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 9
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 6:43:32 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		tgb,
How to include the OOB screen on the left is something that can easily be added to the current tutorial using a yellow question mark. Do you remember what else threw you?

In terms of written instructions, you basically want a step-by-step guide to getting through the first turn?

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Post #: 10
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 7:14:04 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

tgb,
How to include the OOB screen on the left is something that can easily be added to the current tutorial using a yellow question mark. Do you remember what else threw you?

In terms of written instructions, you basically want a step-by-step guide to getting through the first turn?


Yeah, that would be great.

I never made it past the OOB window. When I couldn't close it I thought it was some sort of bug (I tried hitting esc, clicking outside the window, rt-clicking, everything but clicking on the x, which looks decorative). I quit and restarted several times, but unless I quit the game completely the scenario would start with the window already open. I was starting to think about reinstalling when I accidentally clicked on the right spot and I realized what I was doing wrong.

After that I poked around a bit, realized I had no idea what I was doing, tried a couple of the question marks in the hope there would be more information about the UI, and gave up. I looked in the installation folder for a tutorial or quick-start guide, and when that came up empty I realized I was going to have to read the manual, which I still haven't been able to get to.

It sounds like there's a good game here, but I'm sure you don't want a new user's first impression to be one of frustration.

< Message edited by tgb -- 4/23/2015 8:15:05 PM >

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 11
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 8:00:29 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback. I had rather thought that 'X' was a sort of universal symbol for "close this window." We had about 50 beta testers come through and none of them had had this difficulty, so I wouldn't have assumed it would be a common problem. I'll make sure that our next manual explains these sorts of operations.

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Post #: 12
RE: Tutorial - 4/23/2015 8:06:41 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Actually for me since a right-facing arrow opens the window, I was expecting a left-facing one to close it.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 13
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 8:27:25 AM   
bazjak

 

Posts: 263
Joined: 9/1/2014
From: Wales UK
Status: offline 		I agree
I to would like to see a decent tutorial
I like ma others can't always get into a manual
BBattlefront is excellent

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 14
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 9:08:29 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

I had rather thought that 'X' was a sort of universal symbol for "close this window.


it's been there since year dot, so yes it is, all versions of windows use it and always have

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Post #: 15
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 11:03:45 AM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

quote:

I had rather thought that 'X' was a sort of universal symbol for "close this window.


it's been there since year dot, so yes it is, all versions of windows use it and always have


And it's always in the right hand corner - not the middle of a margin.

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 16
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 11:03:54 AM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		oops

< Message edited by tgb -- 4/24/2015 12:04:55 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 6:03:37 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		With the OOB screen issue solved (and, for anyone who hasn't noticed this listed among the hotkeys, H will toggle on and off the Echelon Window with the commanders), it's not clear to me what this step-by-step tutorial would do that the starter scenario doesn't. We need to see that there are enough specific matters that can be addressed in one but not the other before we divert time from working on new scenarios and other aspects of the game.

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 18
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 6:03:38 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		this any good to those who want a tutorial?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3842918

or more depth and steps needed?

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 19
RE: Tutorial - 4/24/2015 6:50:09 PM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline 		Please take a look at the Flashpoint Campaigns tutorial manual. I'm sure Erik can get you a copy if you don't have access. There is absolutely nothing in the game that needs changing or adding, it is a complete instructional guidebook written in a step by step format, probably in Word, with screenshots as needed. This is the level of tutorial that is impressive, useful, and very, very helpful. And, there's the added bonus of zero work coding wise.

I'm sure this game can be figured out, as can any game given enough time and effort, but a comprehensive pre-made tutorial is always welcome in complex wargames.

< Message edited by jglazier -- 4/24/2015 7:50:52 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Tutorial - 4/25/2015 5:05:27 PM   
InuharikoMu


Posts: 85
Joined: 10/27/2013
From: Duisburg, Germany
Status: offline 		I say it more bluntly: 50 € is the Price for a Triple-A Game. Meaning i expect a Manual & a written Tutorial. Furthermore everything jglazier has told us in this Thread, get's from me a +1. I'm not happy about the degrading Quality of Matrix / Slitherine Documentation and 1st Day Quality of the latest Products. Best Regards from rainy Zermany

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Post #: 21
RE: Tutorial - 4/25/2015 7:50:27 PM   
bazjak

 

Posts: 263
Joined: 9/1/2014
From: Wales UK
Status: offline 		I couldn't agree more
My physical copy will be here soon and im none the wiser
Please a tutorial like FC or even better like BF would be magic

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Post #: 22
RE: Tutorial - 4/25/2015 8:36:20 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		So let me share my thoughts on this.

First, an interactive, learn-as-you-play tutorial is obviously a good thing to have, but the nature of the BAB engine makes that a non-option. HOWEVER, we do have the "Starter Scenario," which as you know is our smallest scenario, with more than a dozen pointers available right there on the map if one clicks on a yellow question mark. Several days ago I posted a thread saying I want to improve that tutorial, now that people have gotten to know the game, and have received only a single suggestion. (I also know, from tgb's experience, that I should say how one opens and closes both the OOB list and the echelon window.) If no one has made suggestions for improvements I can only infer that it has been sufficient for most players. Now, of course, there are different types of players, so a one-size-fits-all approach might not be the right way to go. And it's been suggested that we provide a PDF that goes step by step. That can be done, of course, though the time involved comes at the direct expense of new scenarios and scenario improvements, so I'm a bit hesitant to embark on such a project. But I might have another solution: what if I take the existing starter scenario and organize the pointers better? I'm thinking that I could write on the map "Step 1: Examining your units" and then provide there in a row the pertinent pointers, then "Step 2: Moving your units" followed by the relevant info, etc. Since all text for this tutorial is in a single .txt file it would be easy to provide that as a formatted PDF file for those who want to print it and have it ready to consult. That seems like a hybrid approach between an interactive tutorial and a static PDF document. Thoughts?

(in reply to bazjak)
Post #: 23
RE: Tutorial - 4/25/2015 9:35:28 PM   
AlessandroD


Posts: 381
Joined: 12/28/2014
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I guess it depends which kind of players you want to support, for a total novice a pdf step by step surely is most helpful (maybe not a full game but only 3-5 turns with some action).
For a player that has already played similar games (like me) I found it enough, but of course that's me.

What I'd like to see is a terrain chart with movement cost for each formation, terrain modifiers involved in the combat system (if they can change patchc after patch a guideline can be enough).

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 24
RE: Tutorial - 4/25/2015 11:15:57 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

So let me share my thoughts on this.

First, an interactive, learn-as-you-play tutorial is obviously a good thing to have, but the nature of the BAB engine makes that a non-option. HOWEVER, we do have the "Starter Scenario," which as you know is our smallest scenario, with more than a dozen pointers available right there on the map if one clicks on a yellow question mark. Several days ago I posted a thread saying I want to improve that tutorial, now that people have gotten to know the game, and have received only a single suggestion. (I also know, from tgb's experience, that I should say how one opens and closes both the OOB list and the echelon window.) If no one has made suggestions for improvements I can only infer that it has been sufficient for most players. Now, of course, there are different types of players, so a one-size-fits-all approach might not be the right way to go. And it's been suggested that we provide a PDF that goes step by step. That can be done, of course, though the time involved comes at the direct expense of new scenarios and scenario improvements, so I'm a bit hesitant to embark on such a project. But I might have another solution: what if I take the existing starter scenario and organize the pointers better? I'm thinking that I could write on the map "Step 1: Examining your units" and then provide there in a row the pertinent pointers, then "Step 2: Moving your units" followed by the relevant info, etc. Since all text for this tutorial is in a single .txt file it would be easy to provide that as a formatted PDF file for those who want to print it and have it ready to consult. That seems like a hybrid approach between an interactive tutorial and a static PDF document. Thoughts?



I think it's a good compromise. I haven't felt the need for further help since I finally read the manual, but you know how impatient gamers can be.

I think the suggestion of a .pdf tutorial doesn't mean it has to be written by someone at WCS - you guys have other fish to fry. Perhaps one of the beta testers with a lot more experience. Iirc, the person who wrote the excellent .pdf tutorial for War in the East was just a player who put a lot of time in.

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 25
RE: Tutorial - 4/26/2015 12:34:15 AM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline 		I also think this may be a good compromise. The game is not all that difficult, but I am still a big fan of comprehensive step-by-step tutorials, Word document/pdf style or interactive.

But, this could be a very good solution, and I would also love for you to have time to add more game content, improvements like adding flags to the firefight details, and improving the text while zooming, and more zoom options during combat, etc.

Onwards!

(in reply to tgb)
Post #: 26
RE: Tutorial - 4/26/2015 10:20:06 AM   
InuharikoMu


Posts: 85
Joined: 10/27/2013
From: Duisburg, Germany
Status: offline 		Why not a Bootcamp Map, with a Drill Sergant who give you the Ropes, with the Basics? That would be a nice Touch.

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Post #: 27
RE: Tutorial - 4/26/2015 10:40:38 AM   
AlessandroD


Posts: 381
Joined: 12/28/2014
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richtschnur

Why not a Bootcamp Map, with a Drill Sergant who give you the Ropes, with the Basics? That would be a nice Touch.


Nice idea!

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Post #: 28
RE: Tutorial - 4/26/2015 11:02:49 AM   
Yogi the Great


Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		I don't mind tutorials and I understand why those who would like one feel it is important, but I don't personally think it is needed for this game. Plus play the tutorial once or twice and it's usefulness is pretty much done has been my experience with tutorials in other games.

That said I will leave it to the developers and staff how they can best use their time, effort and expense to best tweak, update, fix or improve the game engine and help achieve what best leads to continued and impressive updates and additions to the series. For me that is how I would rather see them devote their efforts than toward a tutorial. Again I have no objection to them making one, I just don't feel it will do much to improve the game. As you play any game tutorials can perhaps give you a "quick start" so to speak but they don't really do much to actually improve a game or your eventual understanding of or ability to play it well. Who knows they may even decide to do a tutorial some day in a future addition to the series.

As has been said by others on this forum, this is a special game with innovative and important advances to the civil war battle game genre.





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Post #: 29
RE: Tutorial - 4/26/2015 6:22:10 PM   
Killjoy12

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/11/2003
Status: offline 		Why not a video playthrough of the tutorial?

(in reply to Yogi the Great)
Post #: 30
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