Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?

Yep, put a pilot trained in a single engine bomber into a twin engine and some experience is lost. Vice versa too. Makes sense when you think about it, I just wish there was a way in the pools to tell the difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

Yup, so I feared. Maybe I can convince the folks behind Tracker to dump this data too. I figure if they can get experience then they can get skills fairly easily as well. Or I can get an NDA. If I can show that my automation tool is serious then maybe I can pull this off. I just need more time to invest in this. With only 1-2 hours a week this is going to take years to get a real program that I can think about giving to others. Then again, my current PBEM game may take longer to complete.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

I'd be interested in your complicated strategies for the Allies; I'm not going to worry about the Japanese pilots since they require much less management. I'm still trying to figure out optimal algorithms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Anybody who takes the time to make a tool that helps others (no matter how few) is deserving of kudos and thanks - so you get both! The trickiest thing for me is that you can't dump pilots into a common pool if they can be pulled by both 1E and 2E airframes, since a 1E trained pilot loses experience points (which are the slowest of all to accumulate) when moved to a 2E airframe, and vice versa (Patrol is even worse, since then you have 4E in the mix). So that means I never use common pools, which increases the mouse clicking exponentially.

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat
It gives only EXP, not skills broken out. So would not work for you.

Yup, so I feared. Maybe I can convince the folks behind Tracker to dump this data too. I figure if they can get experience then they can get skills fairly easily as well. Or I can get an NDA. If I can show that my automation tool is serious then maybe I can pull this off. I just need more time to invest in this. With only 1-2 hours a week this is going to take years to get a real program that I can think about giving to others. Then again, my current PBEM game may take longer to complete.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
I don't let software run anything if I can help it. I don't even use automatic convoys. I have very complicated strategies for training, and it's different for the allies than it is for the Japanese. In my experience it's by far the most important task you have. When I was playing the Allied side I still could do 3 to 4 turns a day. If you don't do training properly against an opponent that does, plan on losing.

I'd be interested in your complicated strategies for the Allies; I'm not going to worry about the Japanese pilots since they require much less management. I'm still trying to figure out optimal algorithms.

quote:

I'm not denying that it makes sense IRL. Just a game mechanic question. Can you show me an example of this with a screenshot before and after? I want to see the drop of experience on a particular pilot. Frankly, I don't know how the game would even store this info. I don't believe the game records how many engines were in the plane the pilot was training in. But I've been wrong before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Thanks! But I haven't noticed any experience drop when switching from 1E to 2E or whatever. I've only noticed it when I go from one pool to another. Can anyone else comment on this?

Yep, put a pilot trained in a single engine bomber into a twin engine and some experience is lost. Vice versa too. Makes sense when you think about it, I just wish there was a way in the pools to tell the difference.

I'm not denying that it makes sense IRL. Just a game mechanic question. Can you show me an example of this with a screenshot before and after? I want to see the drop of experience on a particular pilot. Frankly, I don't know how the game would even store this info. I don't believe the game records how many engines were in the plane the pilot was training in. But I've been wrong before.

Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

While I really appreciate the effort to make a tool to automate this task, it seems to me to be a bit of an overkill.  I readily admit that I may be missing something here, but the tedium some players exercise on this task seems largely unnecessary in my gaming experience.  To be clear, I do train pilots and I think it is necessary.  However, I tend to train them in 90-day batches and then release them to the pool -- the final training takes place in the unit they eventually end up assigned to which I don't manage.

By '44, the Allies have so many air units that the marginal quantitative difference obtained by uber-micromanagement seems unimportant.  It may be different for Japan, but I think the die is cast there as well -- no matter how good they are they get swamped by Allied pilots that are just "OK," but "OK" in numbers that Japan can't hope to counter.

To each his own of course, but this task as it is currently envisioned in the game is really not a problem nor a burdensome task in my opinion and experience. 

Regards,
Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
One of the most common places I see this happen is with Japanese bomber pilots.

This is because both the G3/G4 pilots, and the B5N pilots have similar skill sets - generally high NavT, highish NavB, and then possibly ASW or GrdB, so its sometimes hard to tell which is from which group.

When you pull one from the other 'group', say a pilot trained on a G3 (considered a Medium Bomber) into a B5 (considered a Torpedo Bomber), you will get a drop off (in my experience) 2-5 experience.

I think the game tracks it by aircraft class, so in the above MB and TB are seperate. I'm not sure if it tracks MB as just being part of 'level bombers', or if it splits it into LB/MB/HB too - I haven't tried pulling pilots trained on light bombers like Ki-51s into Ki-21s. Will give that a shot to check when I next shuffle pilots.

Another easy one that might cause this for the Japanese is Fighter and Float-Fighter pilots, since I think those both pool under the Fighter tab in the reserves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
By '44, the Allies have so many air units that the marginal quantitative difference obtained by uber-micromanagement seems unimportant.  It may be different for Japan, but I think the die is cast there as well -- no matter how good they are they get swamped by Allied pilots that are just "OK," but "OK" in numbers that Japan can't hope to counter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
One of the most common places I see this happen is with Japanese bomber pilots.

This is because both the G3/G4 pilots, and the B5N pilots have similar skill sets - generally high NavT, highish NavB, and then possibly ASW or GrdB, so its sometimes hard to tell which is from which group.

When you pull one from the other 'group', say a pilot trained on a G3 (considered a Medium Bomber) into a B5 (considered a Torpedo Bomber), you will get a drop off (in my experience) 2-5 experience.

I think the game tracks it by aircraft class, so in the above MB and TB are seperate. I'm not sure if it tracks MB as just being part of 'level bombers', or if it splits it into LB/MB/HB too - I haven't tried pulling pilots trained on light bombers like Ki-51s into Ki-21s. Will give that a shot to check when I next shuffle pilots.

Another easy one that might cause this for the Japanese is Fighter and Float-Fighter pilots, since I think those both pool under the Fighter tab in the reserves.

Interesting. Maybe this is because you manually selected the pilot rather than drawing from the top/bottom of the pool. For some reason the way you select the pilot has an effect on how it transfers. The fact that one pilot went from delay 1 to delay 6 suggests that. That being said, I plan on avoiding the manual pilot select so it won't be an issue. Otherwise I think it's near impossible to track this because there isn't any info about what groups a pilot used to be in.

Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.

That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).

Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

I'm actually current doing a few tests to see exactly how this works, or if I'm just imagining things. Want to see if for example there is a difference between the various bomber weight classes, or if its just 'category' - my hypothesis is that there isn't, and the data tracked is the same as the options you get under 'type' in the editor, whereas light/heavy/etc. seen to be modifiers onto that.

Will report back when I'm done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.

That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Im fairly certain that it works by tracking the aircraft type (MB, TB, DB, etc.) of the squadron the pilot came from when he was moved to the pool, compared to the aircraft type of the squadron he gets pulled into. If the two don't match, you get the penalty.

That's interesting because it means the information is somehow attached to the individual pilot record, and accompanies him into the general pool. Unfortunately it's invisible, which is too bad. Some kind of added visual effect would be very nice, possibly a color highlight. Looking at your example posted above, "Bomber Reserve" could be in Green Font for 1E and Orange for multi-engine (Assuming that's the source of the penalty, which I think it is - move a Pete pilot into a Mavis and see what happens).

JuanG is correct. Read Koniu's and my posts in this thread from last September.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3706882&mpage=1&key=�

1. The number of engines has nothing to do with the dropping of experience levels. It is moving a pilot from one aircraft class to another only that counts. As I pointed out in the highlighted thread, the experience loss is a random up to 10%. It usually averages out to about 4-5 percentage basis points but bear in mind it is governed by the usual caveat of die rolls.

2. Pilots with less than 50 experience do not suffer any experience loss when moved to a different aircraft class.

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

A fighter pilot in the General Reserve who was last assigned to the Hurricane IV, a single engine FB, will not suffer any experience loss if moved to a two engine FB but will experience an experience drop if moved to the Hurricane IIc, a single engine F. A fighter pilot who is moved from a Warhawk (singled engine F) to a Lightning (two engine F) does not experience an experience loss.

Alfred

Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

As a general rule, you dispute Alfred at your own risk, but here's a very easy test. Take any single engine Kate pilot and transfer them to a Betty unit. Loses experience every time (above 50 of course). Then move them to a Val. Experience lost again. The same thing happens if you move a Pete pilot into Emily or Mavis. Loses points every time. The latter is *probably* because the game CAN tell the difference between "Float Plane" and "Patrol". For example, you can move a Pete pilot into a Naval Babs Recon, and there's an enormous experience hit, so it's definitely not a case of the game classifying Pete as "Recon".

So I'm willing to believe that it's not "engine count" (to my surprise, pilots move between Sonia and Lily with no problem), but there must be more categories than the five you listed above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

JuanG,

Were those 80+ experience pilots from TRACOM? Very possible that different algorithm applies to TRACOM as it is a different pool, or to any pilot who is qualified for transfer to TRACOM. Might be like a chess Grandmaster, once awarded the title it is retained irrespective of subsequent performance decline, so in AE once a pilot becomes a true experten, he can't drop in experience below 80 subsequently. To drop in experience might adversely impact the algorithms for editor designated training groups.

Alfred

Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. There are 14 different aircraft classes but only 5 (originally only 4 when the game first shipped) classes in the General Pilot Reserve. Pilots are tracked by their current/last assigned aircraft class. They are aggregated in the General Reserve. The aggregation is as follows.

Fighter - pilots last assigned to F/FB/NF/FF aircraft classes
Bomber - pilots last assigned to DB/HB/MB/LB/AB/TB aircraft classes (NB many aircraft models are classified as both MB and AB)
Patrol - pilots last assigned to PA/FP aircraft classes
Transport - pilots last assigned to TR aircraft class
Recon - pilots last assigned to RC aircraft class

Alfred

As a general rule, you dispute Alfred at your own risk, but here's a very easy test. Take any single engine Kate pilot and transfer them to a Betty unit. Loses experience every time (above 50 of course). Then move them to a Val. Experience lost again. The same thing happens if you move a Pete pilot into Emily or Mavis. Loses points every time. The latter is *probably* because the game CAN tell the difference between "Float Plane" and "Patrol". For example, you can move a Pete pilot into a Naval Babs Recon, and there's an enormous experience hit, so it's definitely not a case of the game classifying Pete as "Recon".

So I'm willing to believe that it's not "engine count" (to my surprise, pilots move between Sonia and Lily with no problem), but there must be more categories than the five you listed above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

Well I'm still not seeing the behavior you are describing. When I manually select a pilot who was trained in a different type a plane I see the experience drop. But I DO NOT see it when I use the release pilot button. I've tested this multiple times with different plane types and even selecting from a different pilot pool. Something isn't adding up if this isn't what the rest of you are seeing...