RE: Turn 48: 3-9 June 1944

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RE: Turn 48: 3-9 June 1944 - 4/29/2015 6:28:23 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Dumb question about Italy: is there much risk of getting cut off along the Gulf of Taranto?

Not a dumb question at all - I was scared that Dave would manage that and its one reason why I've moved very slowly and basically have 2 full strength infantry divisions in each clear hex and one in each rough hex. So thats an average of 20 defensive cv before fortifications.

His problem is he'd have to commit more than he has in the region to generate the attack strength. I'm plastering the zone with airpower (though less intensive than in Normandy) so he'd take losses/time and he doesn't know what I'm up to with my secondary naval invasions. So if he pulled out of say Rome to counterattack in the south he could end up with a real problem. If he tried to concentrate all he has in the region I doubt he could rebuild his line and I'd end up making significant gains.

Its one way I now think that the threat of invasion can sometimes pin down more troops than actually making an invasion.

Oddly from emails we were both reaching the point of deciding this offensive was either a waster of time (me) or threatening a major encirclement (Dave) and one of us blinks first.

.. for reasons of dramatic tension I'll not say who at this stage

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RE: Turn 48: 3-9 June 1944 - 4/29/2015 7:09:52 PM

jwolf

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Thanks for the insight. Interesting how the perception of the same operation is so different on the two sides. Here's to hoping you win the "blink" war.

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Post #: 92

RE: Turn 46: 20-26 May 1944 - 4/29/2015 8:40:29 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

People seem to do this to Pelton quite a lot and looking at the AARs one person won big as a result
but the others failed - I think the logic that the British had in reality of being too weak to
take on the Germans in open combat was valid.

The 1 person who won big, was because I was not prepared and did not fully understand the VP system, WA interdiction and how replacements flow or do not flow through 7-9 interdiction hexes.
That same landing was attempted by 3 other players(copy cats) and they all failed or were locked down losing allot of VP's because I held the ports.

The keys to holding WA's on the beaches in France is forts 1 hex inland and strong divisions all along the coast.

Normandy and Brittany are the 2 best landing areas. La Harve is close but because of the river its easy to lock down.

Understanding interdiction and how it works is huge as Germany.

Great AAR as always fun to read.

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Post #: 93

RE: Turn 46: 20-26 May 1944 - 4/30/2015 7:25:41 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

People seem to do this to Pelton quite a lot and looking at the AARs one person won big as a result
but the others failed - I think the logic that the British had in reality of being too weak to
take on the Germans in open combat was valid.

The 1 person who won big, was because I was not prepared and did not fully understand the VP system, WA interdiction and how replacements flow or do not flow through 7-9 interdiction hexes.
That same landing was attempted by 3 other players(copy cats) and they all failed or were locked down losing allot of VP's because I held the ports.

The keys to holding WA's on the beaches in France is forts 1 hex inland and strong divisions all along the coast.

Normandy and Brittany are the 2 best landing areas. La Harve is close but because of the river its easy to lock down.

Understanding interdiction and how it works is huge as Germany.

Great AAR as always fun to read.

Aye, that was my impression. Laying aside the wider issue of 'balance' I think WiTW does a great job modelling the need for all invasions to be well prepared and set up to take few risks. The other key thing is it clearly shares the implicit UK rather than US view about the ability of the allies to really take on the German army in 1943. So early invasions of northern Europe in 1943 are a high risk stunt and most likely to fail (and fail badly).

Agree about interdiction, getting your head around that, for both sides, is critical. Its akin to understanding the impact of mass over quality in WiTE in terms of tactical game play.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/30/2015 8:26:47 AM >

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Post #: 94

Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 4/30/2015 7:30:03 AM

loki100

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Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 1944

Air war much as it has been in recent turns. Some of Bomber Command and 8 US Air hitting Germany, bulk of the airforce concentrated on Normandy.

Bomber Command did a lot of damage in the Ruhr (the latest patch really has improved night bombing) and 8 Air went after aircraft factories around Erfurt. From Italy, 15 US Air hit the area around Regensburg.

In Italy, my slow advance finally reaches the outskirts of Taranto.

I really was not sure whether to persist or give up as I was feeling that I was now very stretched out and unable to concentrate on any particular sector.

Caen finally fell. First attack was the usual defeat but at least that saw the bulk of the fortifications destroyed. I decided to gamble on a second attack and forced the Germans out.

This really opens up my scope for movement and allows 2 British to break out.

Elsewhere, elements of 1 US reached Cherbourg but even better the infantry of 1 US almost captured Vire dislocating the entire German western flank. I'm almost out of the Bocage, so next turn its time to let the armour have fun.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/30/2015 8:32:35 AM >

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Post #: 95

RE: Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 4/30/2015 1:03:02 PM

jwolf

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Looks like you'll get control of the whole Cotentin peninsula soon. But then breaking out of there might be difficult. I supppose that's where the second invasion will come into play?

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Post #: 96

RE: Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 4/30/2015 6:19:32 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Looks like you'll get control of the whole Cotentin peninsula soon. But then breaking out of there might be difficult. I supppose that's where the second invasion will come into play?

moving beyond the protection of the Bocage will force a change in tactics. In fact I invent the idea of the *armoured mouse* to avoid the risk of a significant defeat.

Second invasion I'm in no hurry. At this stage I can generate levels #5-9 of interdiction as I'm using all my tactical air and I'd undermine that huge advantage if I had to protect a second landing site. We've discussed this in emails and at the moment with an unused invasion I have one army (US 3rd) effectively tieing down 2 of Dave's as they cover the most likely options. Once I land, I suspect he'll only need one of those armies to keep me pinned down and it'll be some time before I can generate the numbers to realistically threaten a third landing (in N Europe ... a third is indeed planned for the Med).

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Post #: 97

RE: Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 4/30/2015 6:31:38 PM

Peltonx

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Nice job on your over all tactics.

What is the VP score?

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Post #: 98

RE: Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 4/30/2015 6:37:51 PM

marion61

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I've found that making the axis player fight out in the open in France is where most of the casualties come from. Not really from combat so much. In one game I've caused over 400k casualties in 8 turns, FOW on of course. If you continually lay down interdiction as Jerry retreats, he takes massive casualties each turn. It takes about a month or so of breaking out, but once you do the axis casualties will mount so that by the time he reaches the German frontier, his units will be in horrible shape, and you won't be facing huge CV numbers.

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Post #: 99

RE: Turn 49: 10 � 16 June 194 - 5/1/2015 7:33:32 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Nice job on your over all tactics.

What is the VP score?

its strange, I really botched the Italian phase but feel I am very much winning the battle for Normandy, we're a few turns ahead and its a case of adapting to the next round of fighting.

At this stage it was at the lower end of a draw, we're up to T57 (I have T58 but not looked at it yet) and its in the lower end of an axis marginal win. I'm taking too many losses but it'll be interesting to see how it all works out

quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I've found that making the axis player fight out in the open in France is where most of the casualties come from. Not really from combat so much. In one game I've caused over 400k casualties in 8 turns, FOW on of course. If you continually lay down interdiction as Jerry retreats, he takes massive casualties each turn. It takes about a month or so of breaking out, but once you do the axis casualties will mount so that by the time he reaches the German frontier, his units will be in horrible shape, and you won't be facing huge CV numbers.

Thats my hope, Dave suffered heavy losses (I suspect both real casualties and disrupted elements) in Normandy. I now need to inflict the same intensity on him in the next phase. If I can do that, and carefully time my second invasion, I think I have a chance of reaching eastern France, western Belgium by late 1944.

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Post #: 100

Turn 50: 17-23 June 1944 - 5/5/2015 7:30:21 AM

loki100

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Turn 50: 17-23 June 1944

Given that I am producing very high interdiction levels in Normandy, I decide its time to send US 8 Air on a massive raid at Berlin. The hope is that will produce 4 seperate attacks each active day.

Ground attack missions in Normandy are the usual mixture. Basically fighter bombers are hitting the front lines and level bombers generating interdiction behind the German lines.

Outcomes were pretty good. Bomber Command hit Hamburg and Bremen and 8 Air hammered both Berlin and the surrounding industrial centres. Again it also inflicted heavy losses on the defending Luftwaffe.

On the land, 2 British tried to exploit finally taking Caen by crossing the Orne.

While that failed, it has the advantage of pinning down the Germans and inflicting losses they will not be able to replace (due to the interdiction).

In the meantime US 1 Army captures Vire and increases the pressure on the Germans.

In Italy, no attacks but I carry on building up around the mouth of the Basento. My goal is to be able to both break the German line and exploit towards Bari etc.

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RE: Turn 50: 17-23 June 1944 - 5/5/2015 5:44:32 PM

jwolf

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I have to admit I'm getting nervous about your long thin line toward Taranto. Really sticking your neck out ...

When do you expect to make the 2nd landing in the north?

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RE: Turn 50: 17-23 June 1944 - 5/6/2015 6:10:39 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I have to admit I'm getting nervous about your long thin line toward Taranto. Really sticking your neck out ...

When do you expect to make the 2nd landing in the north?

me too to be honest. But Dave would have struggled to muster the units needed - I suspect he'd need to move about 60-80 attack cv into a region with poor transport links and a lot of my airpower. The potential reward is huge but there is also a real risk of being badly caught out of position.

In a way its another example of how the threat of an invasion can tie down more units than a delivered invasion. He can't risk stripping his forces at Rome (for example) as he must know I have at least one large, well prepared invasion waiting to hit somewhere in the Med.

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Post #: 103

Turn 51: 24-30 June 1944 - 5/10/2015 9:59:08 AM

loki100

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Turn 51: 24-30 June 1944

Start off with the VP situation. Pretty bad and getting worse, mostly driven by my combat losses. I think with the EF option on (even if your opponent then shows restraint as Dave has done), this is inevitable. To make any progress you just have to attack as the scope for movement is limited.

Pattern of the airwar is much as before. All the heavy (4 engined) bombers from 8 and 15 Air plus Bomber Command hit Germany, everything else supports the immediate operations on the ground. As usual, FBs are going for the front lines, 2 engined bombers hitting the rear and the Halifaxs of BC attack detected Luftwaffe concentrations around Paris.

BC had one of its better weeks.

I've not shown it, but 8 Air is now shooting down more interceptors than it is losing in terms of escorts. So it looks like the Luftwaffe is starting to collapse.

To help it on its way, I am hitting airfields, in this case ones around Paris. I was trying to end those mildly annoying Luftwaffe interventions on the battlefields, I strongly feel that only I should be deploying Ground support ....

2 British forces the Orne. First attack fails, but a follow up manages to dislodge the defenders.

Even better, I now have spare armoured divisions so I Polish exploits and manages to disrupt the German second line.

This leads to the first combat deployment of the 'armoured mouse' ... also known as Gds Armoured. Stuffed with support units and well rested it is very powerful, and protected by heavy air interdiction I gamble on pushing it deep into the German lines. My hope is that Dave will not dare attack it and even if he does, it'll only retreat one hex.

Oddly, this turn its 1 US Army that makes little progress, failing to break out at Avranches.

In Italy, Dave blinked first and pulled back.

Also am now delaying any secondary naval landings as I really want to focus my airpoweron the fighting in Normandy.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 5/11/2015 8:43:47 AM >

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Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 7:41:48 AM

loki100

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Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944

One thing in my favour is that the weather remains clear. I think I am gaining a small advantage from my earlier decision to gamble with a slightly early invasion.

Bombing pattern is as usual. Heavy Bombers hit Germany, everything else supports the fighting in Normandy.

I'm still generating high interdiction levels over key sectors. I think this justifies my decision to not launch any secondary invasion till I have fully exploited the benefits of being able to concentrate my airpower and to see how much I can gain from the primary invasion.

As you can see, this time the bulk of the airpower is supporting US 1 Army and the result is a pretty clean breakout, started by wrecking a notionally very powerful Panzer division.

2nd British tried to create a pocket in the centre and the 'armoured mouse' moved forward one more hex (with no actual fighting). I'm trying for a pocket, which I don't believe I'll manage. If not then to force the Germans to move quickly from hexes plastered by high interdiction levels.

This time the fighting worked out so that a small 'tactical' airdrop was aimed at exactly the right hex. This will not only complete the isolation of the German units around Avranche but also generate high interdiction levels.

And if that was not enough fun. The Germans ran away in Italy, abandoning all the south. In the wider context of the war, this now makes little difference but it does mean that 15 Air can raid into Germany with some ease. It will also make a small contribution to my VP score for cities.

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Post #: 105

RE: Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 10:18:01 AM

paullus99

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This jives quite a bit with what I've been seeing - if the Allies can concentrate their airpower at key points, they can create those "movement deserts" that plagued the Germans IRL.....it really is about huge amounts of preparation and a clear plan.

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Post #: 106

RE: Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 11:19:36 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

This jives quite a bit with what I've been seeing - if the Allies can concentrate their airpower at key points, they can create those "movement deserts" that plagued the Germans IRL.....it really is about huge amounts of preparation and a clear plan.

aye, I agree, you have to ruthlessly concentrate your airpower, a wide spread of 1-2 interdiction is an annoyance to the Germans but has no real impact. A narrow pattern of 6+ becomes fatal over time. That Pzr Division I shifted with the first attack was showing a cv of 64, so my attack notionally went in at less than 1-1. My hope was that it had been pounded for so long that most of that notional strength was already disrupted and it collapsed to less than 10% of its notional value.

Some of that comes from the confidence of WiTE where you often make Soviet attacks at under 1-1 and hope that mass plus (by mid-war) artillery will compensate. The Allies have the artillery but its all about airpower as the critical advantage.

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Post #: 107

RE: Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 1:35:02 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Bombing pattern is as usual. Heavy Bombers hit Germany, everything else supports the fighting in Normandy.

Do you put any effort into the transportation network (railyards, not railway bombing)?

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RE: Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 3:13:51 PM

jwolf

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Great progress, looks very encouraging! As for the 2nd invasion -- how late in the year can you do this and still count on good weather for expanding the beachhead and a possible breakout?

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RE: Turn 52: 1-7 July 1944 - 5/11/2015 6:35:23 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Bombing pattern is as usual. Heavy Bombers hit Germany, everything else supports the fighting in Normandy.

Do you put any effort into the transportation network (railyards, not railway bombing)?

They've been in ruins, along with the ports in France and the Low Countries, since late 1943. All I'm doing now is diverting either a group of Halifaxes or part of 8 Air to make sure they don't repair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Great progress, looks very encouraging! As for the 2nd invasion -- how late in the year can you do this and still count on good weather for expanding the beachhead and a possible breakout?

We are about 8 turns ahead and I've not delivered that second blow yet. In essence, without saying what I'm up to ... I have two options and neither are really all about a breakout as such. One is to land so as to complete an encirclement, the other is to land to create a threat and grab some useful airbases. Neither really is about an independent breakout, so that means I can wait till it suits me. If I land in mud/light rain thats ok for my purposes.

I'm pretty convinced that the 'threat in being' is very effective. We are now fighting on the Seine and south of Paris and the 'encirclement' invasion option is making Dave a bit twitchy ... and I feel no urge to put him out of his misery, intermittent intense recon and port attacks help to keep him paying attention ....

Same in Italy, I'm doing sort of ok now, in part as he needs to ensure that the Rome sector is well defended against a new round of Med landings.

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Post #: 110

Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944 - 5/12/2015 9:24:15 AM

loki100

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Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944

When I got the turn back I found that Dave had decided my paratroops needed to be eradicated.

Took him 5 attacks but that was them packed off to a nice relaxing holiday in South Armagh.

Other than that, the relentless advance of the 'armoured mouse' led to him abandoning a lot of ground.

We both seemed to take very heavy losses in that turn.

In my turn, Bomber Command hit the airbases around Paris again. From the pattern of losses, I think the Luftwaffe is running out of experienced pilots.

(have annotated the chart to show the difference to T51)

First business of my ground turn was the creation of the death star, time to capture Cherbourg.

Still generating high levels of interdiction over the battlefields. US 1 Army made the Germans pay for all their counterattacks. I'm now clear of the bocage but I think my spearheads are safe, especially as they are well protected by air cover.

My hope now is that Dave has to move those units to the west, and they will then suffer high attrition losses for moving under air attack.

I've also done some recon to see what the defences look like for my secondary invasion site.

In Italy, I push up to occupy the ground that Dave has abandoned. As a spoiler to the next update, 1 British Armoured Division has gone too far.

VP situation slips to the lowest end of a draw. This is clearly heading for an Axis minor victory (at the best).

< Message edited by loki100 -- 5/12/2015 10:25:20 AM >

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Post #: 111

RE: Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944 - 5/12/2015 1:45:46 PM

jwolf

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I assume you've already done the invasion ... my amateur's take would be the one NW of Rouen, just across the Seine. It would IMHO allow a rapid clearing of everything west of the Seine and then you would already have good bridgeheads across the river.

With Cherbourg taken, is your supply situation in Normandy a lot better?

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RE: Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944 - 5/12/2015 7:35:59 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I assume you've already done the invasion ... my amateur's take would be the one NW of Rouen, just across the Seine. It would IMHO allow a rapid clearing of everything west of the Seine and then you would already have good bridgeheads across the river.

With Cherbourg taken, is your supply situation in Normandy a lot better?

no I'm still torturing him with email threats as to where I'm going to land in the north (I've just sent off T63) but have finally sent in the second Med invasion. In return, if I believe what I am being told, every beach has its very own SS Pzr Army just waiting for me

I think all four options have their merits. The more western ones are a bit of a gamble in terms of the German player opting to defend the Seine (if they run east then there is little gain). The eastern ones generate some useful airbases and are a permanent threat to his rear ... but as in my AI game, its very easy for them to be walled in.

Supply in Normandy is ok, the four invasion sites generates quite a lot, so (perhaps unrealistically) Cherbourg is not so critical as it was in real life. Its the next phase when your supply lines become very stretched and you build up the forces in France that it all becomes a case of setting strict priorities.

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Post #: 113

RE: Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944 - 5/12/2015 7:48:18 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...every beach has its very own SS Pzr Army just waiting for me

Great to see a good old-fashioned propaganda war.

Good luck with the 2nd invasion wherever and whenever you make it. Supposing you choose one of the western two, and the Germans flee eastward as you fear -- that pretty much concedes France to the Allies, doesn't it? Would that be so bad?

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Post #: 114

RE: Turn 53: 8-14 July 1944 - 5/13/2015 8:44:40 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...every beach has its very own SS Pzr Army just waiting for me

Great to see a good old-fashioned propaganda war.

Good luck with the 2nd invasion wherever and whenever you make it. Supposing you choose one of the western two, and the Germans flee eastward as you fear -- that pretty much concedes France to the Allies, doesn't it? Would that be so bad?

aye, and it also gives me another useful supply source till I can fully repair the main ports. At the least that would mean starting the winter battles on the Belgian-French border region and winter helps in that sector with the rivers freezing up

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Post #: 115

Turn 54: 15 � 21 July 1944 - 5/13/2015 8:46:47 AM

loki100

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Turn 54: 15 � 21 July 1944

Last turn I was very careless in my moves in Italy, pushing British 1 Armoured up to Naples. Dave took full advantage and cut it off using the hilly terrain to the south to anchor his pocket.

In an attempt to redeem the situation almost every bomber in Italy hits the German units to the south. I spent an age agonising over which hex might be the most vulnerable, but the relief mission failed badly.

Those tanks are on their way to South Armagh I fear.

In Normandy, it was clear the Germans were pulling back. I managed to trap a small force in the centre when the armoured mouse sealed a pocket.

I've found that Free French motorised division to be really useful. It is easy to keep in supply/fuel so it has a high MP value even when at the edge of my supply net.

That seems to complete the Normandy battles. I have a small hope that a combination of high interdiction and some mobile units may allow me to trap some infantry units as the Germans retreat to the Seine.

Here's the losses so far. The Luftwaffe took a lot of losses in that week and on the ground I managed 3-1 loss ratio ... something that is going to change next turn I fear.

So I suspect the next few turns will be probing the German defence line on the Seine.

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Post #: 116

RE: Turn 54: 15 � 21 July 1944 - 5/13/2015 1:59:11 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

So I suspect the next few turns will be probing the German defence line on the Seine.

All the more reason, I would think, to stage your 2nd invasion. Put a strong force down on the other side of the Seine and then the Germans' river line won't hold.

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Post #: 117

RE: Turn 54: 15 � 21 July 1944 - 5/14/2015 7:43:26 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

So I suspect the next few turns will be probing the German defence line on the Seine.

All the more reason, I would think, to stage your 2nd invasion. Put a strong force down on the other side of the Seine and then the Germans' river line won't hold.

ah ... patience is also needed. At the moment a small army is pinning down the equivalent of 2 German armies, that is quite a bonus for the coming battles to try and cross the Seine. The invasion force is fully prepped so I can land at the moment of my choice (or even, if needed, swap target)

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Post #: 118

Turn 55: 22-28 July 1944 - 5/14/2015 7:45:47 PM

loki100

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Turn 55: 22-28 July 1944

Opened the turn to find the expected disaster at Naples:

I really now need to think about the purpose of any more fighting in Italy. I'd like to take Naples for the VP and supply but I'm not sure how much more I can manage.

This shows the overall manpower and other key resources. Only real concern is that British manpower is running short but I've started to disband some units (like mobile AA guns) to help with this. Later on I'll remove the British Army Groups and just rely on the US ones.

Bombing carries on in much the same pattern. The priority for the strategic air attacks was the v-weapons, both launch sites and factories. My tactical air was trying to inflict losses on the Germans as they fell back to their new defensive lines. Although my tactical air power is now more spread out, still managed decent interdiction over the retreating Germans.

Spent most of the turn eliminating the various pockets to my rear. My specialist port capturing corps is moving up to St Malo and I'm using the small US recon regiments to grab terrain on the flanks. I have a fear of a German counterattack from south of the Loire so want to ensure as much of my open flank is flipped to my control as I can manage.

At this stage, my supply situation is not too bad but I want to ensure my southern flank can be kept in supply � not least I really need to make the Germans stretch their lines.

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(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 119

RE: Turn 55: 22-28 July 1944 - 5/16/2015 1:56:41 PM

ElvisDaKing

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turn 55: 22-28 July 1944

Bombing carries on in much the same pattern. The priority for the strategic air attacks was the v-weapons, both launch sites and factories. My tactical air was trying to inflict losses on the Germans as they fell back to their new defensive lines. Although my tactical air power is now more spread out, still managed decent interdiction over the retreating Germans.

I am following this AAR with great interest, and trying alos to learn from it

Question : How do you manage to get this interdiction zone ?
- how many squadrons do you commit ?
- do you send large groups to cover large interdiction zone or several mission with groups dispatched to cover some smaller areas ?
- what kind of order/target do you give to your squadrons : Ground Attack/Interdiction or ground Attack:railway which seems to wrok better qs per my own experience
- any other d�tails will be very helpful..

( a screen shot of mission order will be also great

)

thanks in advance

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'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 120