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Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 10:15:43 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

However, I have recently started a day to day diary of the Naval War in the General Discussion thread and, in so doing, I am looking far more closely at the French Navy than I have had cause to previously. As a result I have found some things in these books that do not correspond with other sources e.g.- the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805


Post #: 1
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 11:25:56 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		From a Welshman, Forces de La Haute Mer sounds like the High Seas Fleet of the Deutschmen. My Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships" confirms the name change. She was unarmoured and the name change was made when she became a training cruiser. Auvergne has volcanic soil and is suitable for growing grapes. Part of it was once part of Languedoc.

If you would like me to scan the entry and send it to you I will. It's not much more than 4" on an 8x11.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 5/17/2015 12:33:59 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 11:49:11 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.

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Post #: 3
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 1:12:01 PM   
Gilbert


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/8/2009
From: Hendaye, France
Status: offline
quote:

the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!


Hello Warspite 1!

I don't own these books, therefore cannot tell you how accurate they are, but I own copies of various books written in French on the same subjects by the same authors and they know for sure what they are talking about!

- "Les Forces de Haute Mer" were indeed implemented in 1939 indeed but refer not only to the Mediterranean Fleet based at Toulon but also to the Atlantic Fleet based at Brest.

- According to "Les croiseurs Jeanne d'Arc et Pluton" by J. Guiglini and A. Moreau, the Pluton was indeed scheduled to be renamed La Tour D'auvergne from 1 Jun '40 under Navy's Department instruction No. 609-EMG-3 dated 13 May '39 and confirmed change under internal order 675-EMG-3 dated 1 Jun '39. However, as Pluton blew up and sank at Casablanca, Morroco 13 Sep '39, that scheduled name change could not happen.

HTH

Gilbert



_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 4
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 2:10:32 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I'm going to quote Conway's, it's brief.

"This unarmoured minelaying cruiser was authorized under the 1925 programme. She served most of the later stages of her career as a gunnery training ship at Toulon, but early in 1939 she was converted into an officer cadet training cruiser and renamed La Tour d'Auvergne, by which name she is better known. She attained 56,000shp = 30.6kts with a maximum of 31.6kts. She was lost due to an accidental mine explosion at Casablanca, and the wreck was condemned on 24.2.40. In April 1940 there was a short-lived proposal to build a light cruiser to replace her."

This is me, she could carry 290 mines (which ain't shabby) and had 4 5.5"/40, 4 3"/60 AA plus 2 37mm AA and 3 batteries of 4 13.2mm AA.

(in reply to Gilbert)
Post #: 5
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 3:12:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

quote:

the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!


Hello Warspite 1!

I don't own these books, therefore cannot tell you how accurate they are, but I own copies of various books written in French on the same subjects by the same authors and they know for sure what they are talking about!

- "Les Forces de Haute Mer" were indeed implemented in 1939 indeed but refer not only to the Mediterranean Fleet based at Toulon but also to the Atlantic Fleet based at Brest.

- According to "Les croiseurs Jeanne d'Arc et Pluton" by J. Guiglini and A. Moreau, the Pluton was indeed scheduled to be renamed La Tour D'auvergne from 1 Jun '40 under Navy's Department instruction No. 609-EMG-3 dated 13 May '39 and confirmed change under internal order 675-EMG-3 dated 1 Jun '39. However, as Pluton blew up and sank at Casablanca, Morroco 13 Sep '39, that scheduled name change could not happen.

HTH

Gilbert


warspite1

Yes I have Conways - and this is one of the sources that made me concerned about which version was correct.

Gilbert - glad to see that these authors have your seal of approval - I have French Destroyers 1922-1956 on order for June.

The way the fleets are described in the Cruisers book is:

Forces navales independantes:

These are split into:

Force de Raid (Brest) and
Force de haute mer (Toulon)

No mention of the Atlantic Fleet (of which I understood the Force de Raid was a part?) or Mediterranean Fleet. Then there are the Maritime Regions and the theatre commands and ..... Too much for my small brain to keep up with

If you get a chance to look at that thread in the GD forum from time to time please let me know if I'm talking total sloblocks about matters French!! Thanks




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Gilbert)
Post #: 6
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 4:49:18 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.


We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz



_____________________________




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Post #: 7
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 4:59:47 PM   
Gilbert


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/8/2009
From: Hendaye, France
Status: offline
quote:

The way the fleets are described in the Cruisers book is:

Forces navales independantes:

These are split into:

Force de Raid (Brest) and
Force de haute mer (Toulon)


Well, there is some confusion there. The "Force de Raid" was a special TF created to search and destroy the German "pocket" battleships and was indeed an independant Force part of the Forces de haute mer. But the latter comprised Squadrons either based in the Atlantic and in the Med.

Trying to make it simple:

In '39, the Forces Navales de haute mer are splitted in five maritime regions with Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient (Atlantic)and Toulon and Bizerte (Med).

Note that the French colonies were organized in independant naval bases and are not part of that organisation.

Gilbert

PS-What is the GD forum please?

_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 8
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 5:03:10 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		GD = General Discussion Forum.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Gilbert)
Post #: 9
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 6:48:22 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.


We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz




I'm going to try that! I'm sick of ketchup and sold my shares of Heinz. Never got into vinegar.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 10
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 6:50:10 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

GD = General Discussion Forum.


Do they let anyone in there who's not a General?

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Post #: 11
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 6:57:48 PM   
Gilbert


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/8/2009
From: Hendaye, France
Status: offline
quote:

GD = General Discussion Forum.


Thanks!

_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 12
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 7:13:09 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz




I'm going to try creamy horseradish sauce like Arby's "horsey" sauce. By the way, do you happen to know if Arby's macht fries?

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 13
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 7:25:37 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Yeah, yeah, boo hiss. The galactic center of horseradish production is across the river from me at Collinsville, IL. I noticed how you spelled ketchup; Collinsville also has this giant Brook's Catsup sign. Anyone who wants it can take it off of their hands, really and actually. They want to get rid of it.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 14
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 7:30:19 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Here's an actual case of Catsup. By the way there's no tomatoes like Illinois tomatoes.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 9:20:40 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
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Status: offline 		Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE

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Post #: 16
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/17/2015 10:12:36 PM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1232
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline 		If I may, Geoflambert won the Black Hole award for defeating Kirk!

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RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 12:51:24 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		This thread morphed quick!

Bill

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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

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Post #: 18
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 2:21:58 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE


Are you kidding? I did all that work and didn't make scale. My union rep said I have plenty of scales.

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 19
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 2:53:51 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		As a person of "French ancestry" I must state that I'm offended. Actually I'm not , but it seems like the thing to say.

_____________________________


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Post #: 20
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 3:22:06 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Well, as a gorn I am of British ancestry. Nobody knows what that is but it might be French.

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Post #: 21
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 7:06:17 AM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.


Hi,
I own those 2 books as there is no equivalent synthesis in french.
I will order the 3rd one also.
French books are usually a monograph so dedicated to one or 2 ship classes with more detailled informations on each ship.
If you look at the sources of each books (see page 228 of French Cruisers 1922-1956 as example), you will see that the authors refer to those french monographs.
So same opinion as Gilbert about the authors.


< Message edited by Skyland -- 5/18/2015 8:08:02 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 7:34:49 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.


Hi,
I own those 2 books as there is no equivalent synthesis in french.
I will order the 3rd one also.
French books are usually a monograph so dedicated to one or 2 ship classes with more detailled informations on each ship.
If you look at the sources of each books (see page 228 of French Cruisers 1922-1956 as example), you will see that the authors refer to those french monographs.
So same opinion as Gilbert about the authors.

warspite1

Thank-you Skyland.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 23
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 12:38:48 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.


We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz




I'm going to try that! I'm sick of ketchup and sold my shares of Heinz. Never got into vinegar.


Used to love Heinz...till somewhat recently..................

_____________________________




(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 24
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 1:42:51 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Hi Warspite,

About the Forces de Haute Mer, I suspect there is some confusion. The name "Forces de Haute Mer" (blue water forces) was the official term Vichy used for the French Navy after the 1940 armistice. They were based in Toulon, as it was the only arsenal Vichy controlled (Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient were in occupied France), and was under the command of admiral Laborde.

In 1939, I don't think this designation makes sense. As Gilbert explained, French Naval forces were then divided into commands, each attached to a specific arsenal.

"Forces de raid" are more a role than a proper unit designation. I believe the term was used for specific squadrons, consisting of fast and modern ships, which would raid enemy task forces as they moved into position. Their initial base was Brest (to attack ships moving into the Atlantic), but some of these ships were apparently sent to the Mediterranean later on.

Hope this helps
Francois


< Message edited by fcharton -- 5/18/2015 2:49:19 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 2:24:45 PM   
Gilbert


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/8/2009
From: Hendaye, France
Status: offline
quote:

About the Forces de Haute Mer, I suspect there is some confusion. The name "Forces de Haute Mer" (blue water forces) was the official term Vichy used for the French Navy after the 1940 armistice. They were based in Toulon, as it was the only arsenal Vichy controlled (Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient were in occupied France), and was under the command of admiral Laborde.

In 1939, I don't think this designation makes sense.



François, this is true but l'Etat Français (Vichy) just continued to use the term "Forces de haute Mer".

I will quote "La Marine Française 1939-1940 by Michel Bertrand Ed du Portail 1984, foreword by Rear Admiral Chatelle, Chief of Navy Historical Department, p.32:
"Les Forces Maritimes comprennent :
- Les Forces Navales et Aériennes de Haute Mer,
- Les Forces navales, aériennes et terrestres de défense du littoral,
- les écoles destinées à la formation militaire et technique du personnel, qui sont rattachées tantôt aux Forces Navales de haute mer, tantôt aux forces de défense du littoral."
"Les principales forces navales à la veille de la seconde guerre mondiale sont:
- La Flotte de Haute Mer, comprenant plusieurs escadres.
- L'escadre qui comprend plusieurs divisions,
- La Division, généralement composée de trois unités."

Mais nous voilà bien loin de la Guerre du Pacifique, LOL!

Gilbert

_____________________________

UMI YUKABA
"If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse awash, if duty calls me to the mountain, a verdant will be my pall, thus for the sake of the Emperor, I will not die peacefully at home...."

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 26
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/18/2015 3:16:13 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		This is what I love about researching this stuff. The chances of finding two sources that agree with one another are never good

Still fun to learn though

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Gilbert)
Post #: 27
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/20/2015 4:22:50 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Gents Help!!

According to O'Hara (On Seas Contested) the French had three overseas commands:

DNL (Levant)
FNEO (Saigon)
Cdt Maroc (Casablanca)

According to French Cruisers 1922-56 there is also:
Station navale du Pacifique
Station navale de l'Ocean Indien
Marine Indochine

Were these not independent commands perhaps and came under other commands?

In the latter book there is also mention of:
Forces Maritime de l'Atlantique Ouest (Antilles)
and also
Dispositif d'Oran - what are these?

Are these commands set up post the war starting perhaps?

Finding out where each ship was should be relatively easy - finding out the organisation of the Marine Navale is proving anything but!

So confused





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/20/2015 5:18:08 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline 		Hi,

Organization in 1939-1940 is described here (in french) : http://atf40.forumculture.net/t6205-la-marine-de-septembre-1939-a-juin-1940

For overseas from 39 to 1/1/40 (out of Continental Europe) :

Under direct order of Amiral de la Flotte :

-1) Marine Maroc
9ème DT : Forbin ° (CC Sticca) - Basque (CC Caron)
Aéronavale : E1 (CC Mornu) – B1 (LV Bedos)
Sous-marins détachés au Maroc : 4ème DSM – 18ème DSM – Junon – Danaé – Diane – Eurydice

-2) Marine AOF :
Division Navale de l’AOF : Calais (CC Luca)
Aéronavale : E4

-3) Théâtre de l’Atlantique Ouest :
Jeanne d’Arc (CV Rouyer)
Station de Terre Neuve : Ville d’Ys (CF Pont)
Aéronavale : Section 8S2 (LV Evin)

-4) Division Navale du Levant :
D’Iberville (CF Arden)
Marine Beyrouth : Djebel Sanin (EV Hussenot Desenonges)
11ème DSM détachée de 6ème ESM

-5) Forces Navales d’Extrême Orient :
5ème DC : Lamotte Picquet **** (VAE Decoux – CV Béranger) - Suffren (CV Dillard)
Avisos : Amiral Charner – Rigault de Genouilly (CC Planté) – Savorgnan de Brazza (CF de Badens) – Tahure
Flottille du Yang Tsé : Francis Garnier ° - Balny – Doudart de Lagrée – Argus ( station du Si Kiang)
Marine Indochine : Marne – Avalanche – Commandant Bourdais – Mytho – Tourane – Vigilante – La Pérouse – Octant – Astrolabe
Station du Pacifique : Dumont d’Urville (CF Arzur)
Marine Djibouti
Station de l’Océan Indien : Bougainville (CF Fabre de la Ripelle)
Marine Madagascar
Etablissements Français d’Océanie : Zélée + Station de Tahiti

6 )Amiral Sud
4ème région (VAE Rivet - Bizerte),
contre-amiraux commandant le Dispositif d’Oran (CA Donval) et le Dispositif Maroc (CA Sablé).


< Message edited by Skyland -- 5/20/2015 9:04:03 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 29
RE: Calling all Frenchmen! - 5/20/2015 7:59:52 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE


Are you kidding? I did all that work and didn't make scale. My union rep said I have plenty of scales.


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