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Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 7:23:06 AM   
Ralzakark


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I am seeing quite a few comments by people saying that strategic bombing seems to have no effect on German industry, but no-one responding to say they have examples of it working.

Historically the oil campaign all but grounded the Luftwaffe in late 1944 and significantly reduced the fuel available to ground forces, and in early 1945 the transportation campaign crippled the remainder of the German economy, if only just before Germany itself was over-run.

I haven't had time to play this game much, so what do those who have think? Does bombing actually have any in-game effect?

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 10:57:16 AM   
soeren01

 

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Opinions are split on this.
At the moment there is no hard Data availible but the AAR's suggests that it is at least very hard to disrupt German economy.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 1:15:46 PM   
decourcy2

 

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You can stop production of a few vehicles and aircraft by hitting specific factories. Because of the way the game works if you stop the production of a very few, say patrol aircraft, all of the German patrol groups will wither away. So it can have some effect.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 1:53:23 PM   
Kronolog

 

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I'm in March 1945 in a '43 campaign against the German AI on challenging - having advanced up to the Rhine in the north and the Alps in Italy - and from what I can discern from the "metrics screen", it appears that strategic bombing has an effect; however it's not effective enough to actually make a noticeable impact on the battlefield. In my game, the German fuel stores + pool peaked at 1,821k (imperial or metric tonnes?) on turn 37, and on turn 90 it's down to 310 000. However, the German fuel requirements per turn as of March is only about 17 000 (requirements peaked at turn 71 at approx. 22 000), so they aren't really suffering any shortages.

German oil stores + pool have been comfortably above 2 000k ever since turn 25; requirements peaked at 400 000 on turn 28, and is at 200 000 on turn 90.

German supply stores + pool have been above 8500 k since turn 19; requirements have steadily sunken from 1 000k during the first turns to about 500k on turn 90.

German resource stores + pool have been less than half of requirements for the whole game: stores + pools were between 3900k-4700k between turn 3 and turn 80, after which it has taken a dive and on turn 90 it is at 1600k. Requirements were between 8500k and 11 000k between turn 3 and turn 80; on turn 90 it's about 4500k.

With that said, it would probably be even harder against a human German opponent, as the AI for example neither defends the Romanian oil fields with FlaK, nor with fighters.

< Message edited by Kronolog -- 5/18/2015 2:56:11 PM >

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 2:00:53 PM   
whoofe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kronolog

I'm in March 1945 in a '43 campaign against the German AI on challenging - having advanced up to the Rhine in the north and the Alps in Italy - and from what I can discern from the "metrics screen", it appears that strategic bombing has an effect; however it's not effective enough to actually make a noticeable impact on the battlefield. In my game, the German fuel stores + pool peaked at 1,821k (imperial or metric tonnes?) on turn 37, and on turn 90 it's down to 310 000. However, the German fuel requirements per turn as of March is only about 17 000 (requirements peaked at turn 71 at approx. 22 000), so they aren't really suffering any shortages.

German oil stores + pool have been comfortably above 2 000k ever since turn 25; requirements peaked at 400 000 on turn 28, and is at 200 000 on turn 90.

German supply stores + pool have been above 8500 k since turn 19; requirements have steadily sunken from 1 000k during the first turns to about 500k on turn 90.

German resource stores + pool have been less than half of requirements for the whole game: stores + pools were between 3900k-4700k between turn 3 and turn 80, after which it has taken a dive and on turn 90 it is at 1600k. Requirements were between 8500k and 11 000k between turn 3 and turn 80; on turn 90 it's about 4500k.

With that said, it would probably be even harder against a human German opponent, as the AI for example neither defends the Romanian oil fields with FlaK, nor with fighters.


how much of those resources are down due to losing territory (both to WA and soviets) rather than bombing?

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 2:20:13 PM   
Kronolog

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: whoofe

how much of those resources are down due to losing territory (both to WA and soviets) rather than bombing?



I've been playing with the EF-box off, so the Soviets have been capturing territory according to the predetermined schedule. At present (turn 90), the only parts of Germany proper that I have occupied are the plains inside the area Aachen-Moselle-Reichswald-Rihne. The last couple of turns I've also had units next to Köln, Düsseldorf and Duisburg, which I think should stop those cities from producing.

< Message edited by Kronolog -- 5/18/2015 3:20:42 PM >

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 3:49:05 PM   
marion61

 

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There's discussion about the ineffectiveness of the strategic bombing campaign and it's negligible affect on any industry you target on the beta forum. At this point your best bet is to just hit the vp targets to gain positive vp's. I do believe 2x3 is looking into this as thru all the aar's it's become apparent that there is little to no effect to bombing other than to gain vp's.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 7:42:47 PM   
joey


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I have tried a number of campaigns using various air war techniques. None have had any real impact on the War.
If it were as difficult to impact German production during WWII as it is in the game, the air war would have stopped. The losses simply do not justify the cost.
I have heard an number of solutions to this issue. I am not sure which ones would work best, but I know something must be done to make the air war relevant. Perhaps Germany should start with less oil and supplies and make transport of each more difficult when all railroads within an area are destroyed. The resources needed to produce fuel and supplies might well need to be increased...



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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 7:55:47 PM   
dereck


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See my post in DEFENSE TOO STRONG thread.

I still say that the German National Supply Cities are each giving the German economy 250,000 supplies and 25,00 fuel each turn.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 8:01:39 PM   
Seminole


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Perhaps the Axis players could 'bid' either their transport level, or their logistics level, or some of both?


Logistics Level: Impacts the formulas that determine the amount of supply and replacements a unit receives based on its supply trace, to include through ports, the amount of attrition a unit suffers due to movement, the amount of fatigue added or removed from a unit during a turn, and the amount of fuel expended by generic vehicles. This level also affects the ability of leaders to conduct successful admin checks.

Transport Level: Impacts the amount of rail capacity a player receives each turn.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/18/2015 8:08:29 PM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

See my post in DEFENSE TOO STRONG thread.

I still say that the German National Supply Cities are each giving the German economy 250,000 supplies and 25,00 fuel each turn.


As Joel explained this is not the case as we understand the code (unless of course you can demonstrate it happening as a bug with a repeatable save). It's like saying if you have cheque book full of cheques you have money in your bank account. National Supply Cities create freight which is worthless until it reaches its destination and is cashed in for fuel, supplies, ammo etc.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/20/2015 3:38:14 PM   
Ralzakark


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From the above it seems fairly conclusive that strategic bombing has no noticeable effects.

If it did, I would have expected to see someone post about how they had at least duplicated its historical results. No-one has. This is a pity as it was the prospect of a detailed air game that persuaded me buy WitW in the first place.

I think the core of the game is sound and I am confident it will be patched, but this is one of a number of realism/balance issues with the initial release and patches which all tend to handicap the Allies.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/21/2015 11:15:50 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Here is the Fuel production chart of my latest playtest (version 1.00.37). I have concentrated on both Oil and Fuel targets (HIGH priority) with LOW attention to HI and sufficient attention to UBoats/VWeapons to keep the VP losses down. As you can see it has had some nice effects - the Axis produce about 200 - 250K Fuel per turn.





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< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 5/21/2015 12:16:17 PM >

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/21/2015 11:18:52 AM   
carlkay58

 

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When I do my northern France invasion(s) the Axis will use a large amount of fuel moving in reaction. This should deplete their remaining stores and they will be living on just the production each turn with few to little reserves.

The Oil chart is not quite as nice, but they are not building up any further oil reserves:





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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/21/2015 12:08:32 PM   
soeren01

 

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Nice. Good bombing campaign.
The oil can not be converted into fuel, so it is stockpiled. Your bombing in this case is rather redundant. Do you pay attention to the synthetic fuel production ?

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/21/2015 6:10:30 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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I think that historically, oil per se was never the German's issue (they could pump it out of the ground)... it was fuel. I am not sure the oil production and storage is quite right but it is refineries and synthetic fuel rather than oil production to go for.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/21/2015 7:58:25 PM   
soeren01

 

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In the game it is the same with resources. Germany can produce about 1 Million tons of resources but has enough HI for 1.7 million tons. So only after destroying half of germans availible HI capacity there will be starting to be a reduction in actual production.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/23/2015 1:02:23 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Yes I pay attention to the Synth Fuel sites. The Fuel production includes both Synthetic and normal Fuel production.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 7:21:15 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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One big problem was moving the oil and fuel around ... something that you have to drill down deep to discover (pun intended ).

* The Germans had an entire war shortage of rolling stock, and this was especially so with tanker waggons. The problem was that they didn't have enough steel to produce everything they needed ... and the sexier things like Tanks etc. got a huge chunk while tanker waggons (and rolling stock in general) didn't.

Now, this wasn't a war loser in and of itself, but it did constrain the Germans in what they could or couldn't do.

While it doesn't have an impact in WitW, they didn't have enough Tankers to move oil from either of the two external sources that were, nominally, accessible ... the Caucasus and Mosul ... even if the rail lines and wells had been taken intact in the former case and even if there had been a rail line in the latter (the right of way for the Berlin to Baghdad railway was still there, but the Brits had torn up the tracks and destroyed any technical or signalling facilities ... and the Turkish national rail net was, well, inadequate pretty much everywhere, but more so than the average in that direction).

* Moving oil/fuel from Ploesti to Germany - there weren't enough tanker barges (and there wasn't the capacity to build them, even if there had been the steel) on the Danube. There was (from memory) a pipeline of entirely inadequate capacity part of the way, and there were plans in the pipeline (pun intended again, ) to expand it right through to, IIRC, Austria ... but, again, the Germans didn't have the capacity to produce the amount of high pressure pipe, even if they'd had the steel to send to the pipe factories.

* Moving Oil across the Black Sea. Not enough tankers, with not enough capacity and, you guessed it, not enough capacity to build more, even if there had been spare steel to do it, which there wasn't.

And that doesn't deal with the completely inadequate (even before they were destroyed or damaged in the fighting) port facilities at either end that could barely handle the few low capacity tankers available as it was.

In a sense, therefore, you are right - the major problem was moving what oil and fuel they had *around* from where it was to where it was needed, and they simply didn't have the capacity to change that critical fact.

Of course, they only had 'enough' oil because so little of their army was actually mechanised.

Phil

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 1:25:04 PM   
whoofe

 

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i started a new game recently and I have noticed a significant increase in effectiveness in night bombing from what I was experiencing a few months ago - Bomber Command is useful now

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 4:03:40 PM   
Devonport


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What version are you using?

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 4:11:53 PM   
whoofe

 

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most recent official version. not beta

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 7:38:51 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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I think the difference with night raids is that Manpower targets have a much better chance of causing damage to anything else in the city. There also might be a higher likelihood of hitting Man in the first case. At least from my observations...

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 9:32:18 PM   
Joel Billings


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We appreciate all the feedback in this thread. Here are a few of the changes that we've either made in versions in testing or are now experimenting with:

1) East Front box regularly uses more fuel and supplies. (we don't think we were consuming enough on the eastern front)
2) Fuel and oil factories are easier to damage to higher levels, and harder to repair than other factory types. (we think these targets should be more vulnerable than others, and not quite as difficult to get high damage percentages since not as easy to disperse)
3) Increased number of damaged and destroyed trucks from supply operations. Increased Allied vehicle repair rate. (we think the Germans should have a bigger vehicle issue than they have had in the game to date)
4) Increased losses in the East Front box. (this has been tweaked many times over the months and we're thinking the losses should be a bit higher)
5) Railyard damage was not impacting the amount of freight that would be shipped and unloaded at a railyard depot in the hex. Now, there is a percentage chance equal to the railyard damage that the amount shipped to a railyard depot will be divided by 10. (looking to make railyard bombing more productive)
6) Due to the sequence of actions, destroyed freight in depots was not causing a loss of fuel or supplies in the general pool if those pools were already low. This has been changed so that the correct amount lost will always be taken from the pools. (again, makes railyard bombing more productive, especially when there's already a shortage)

Items 1 and 4 only come into play when using the East Front option.

It will likely be several weeks before these changes are made available as a beta version as some of these still need further internal testing. I just wanted to let people know that we continue to work on improving the game and we do try to respond to the feedback we see from players in the forum. This doesn't mean the game isn't playable now, it just means that we hope to continue to improve the game's fidelity as we get more information.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/28/2015 10:05:00 PM   
whoofe

 

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so what does railyard bombing affect? I had assumed it was reduction in supply being transferred by rail. or does it just destroy supply at the location bombed?

does railroad bombing / interdiction reduce supply being moved? does either mission destroy/damage trucks? I know it slows down unit movement but what else if anything?


does railyard bombing destroy/damage trucks if a depot is in that hex?

does port bombing damage/destroy trucks at the depot on the port hex?

sometimes its very difficult to know what effect my tactical bombing is having, not knowing what the other side is experiencing, so at least having an idea of what these types of bombing could be doing will be helpful


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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/29/2015 12:25:24 AM   
Joel Billings


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It lowers the amount of overall rail capacity available in the system. Any interdiction in the hex that was bombed can cut the amount of freight going through by adding rail usage and it also causes damage to trucks and units moving through the hex. If a depot is in the hex, it will destroy freight at the depot, which can also lead to destruction of goods (since freight represents various items like fuel and supplies). Gary remembers at one time adding code to destroy trucks at the depot as well when the depot is bombed. Bombing ports that have a depot has similar effects on the depot as bombing the railyard. Basically bombing ports and railyards are both considered to be impacting any depot in the hex. Damage to the port always directly impacted how much freight could be shipped in or out from the port. This is not true for railyards, but item 5 above now means that damage on the railyard can directly reduce what comes in to the depot.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/29/2015 1:24:58 AM   
marion61

 

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I have one question about the ability to actually close a rail hex down thru railway interdiction. Is this possible to do where no rail traffic goes thru that hex? I understand that the cap for rail movement is 30k thru a hex, and if my FB's are making 40-80k interdiction thru the hex, does that not cap it? Or does some still get thru past the cap? I've always been a little unclear about how this actually works.


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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/29/2015 3:49:30 AM   
Akmatov

 

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As best I recall, post-war analysis concluded that while the bombing campaign destroyed virtually all German cities, killed at least 500,000 civilians, killed a lot of allied flyer and consumed vast allied resources; it cause minimal damage to the German ability to wage war. It would seem the game may accurately reflect this reality.

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/29/2015 5:35:47 AM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I have one question about the ability to actually close a rail hex down thru railway interdiction. Is this possible to do where no rail traffic goes thru that hex? I understand that the cap for rail movement is 30k thru a hex, and if my FB's are making 40-80k interdiction thru the hex, does that not cap it? Or does some still get thru past the cap? I've always been a little unclear about how this actually works.





No, you can't shut down traffic, you just make it more expensive in MPs or rail capacity (and you can cause damage to the freight and/or units moving through the hex).

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RE: Does Strategic Bombing Work? - 5/29/2015 9:12:50 AM   
soeren01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We appreciate all the feedback in this thread. Here are a few of the changes that we've either made in versions in testing or are now experimenting with:

1) East Front box regularly uses more fuel and supplies. (we don't think we were consuming enough on the eastern front)
2) Fuel and oil factories are easier to damage to higher levels, and harder to repair than other factory types. (we think these targets should be more vulnerable than others, and not quite as difficult to get high damage percentages since not as easy to disperse)
3) Increased number of damaged and destroyed trucks from supply operations. Increased Allied vehicle repair rate. (we think the Germans should have a bigger vehicle issue than they have had in the game to date)
4) Increased losses in the East Front box. (this has been tweaked many times over the months and we're thinking the losses should be a bit higher)
5) Railyard damage was not impacting the amount of freight that would be shipped and unloaded at a railyard depot in the hex. Now, there is a percentage chance equal to the railyard damage that the amount shipped to a railyard depot will be divided by 10. (looking to make railyard bombing more productive)
6) Due to the sequence of actions, destroyed freight in depots was not causing a loss of fuel or supplies in the general pool if those pools were already low. This has been changed so that the correct amount lost will always be taken from the pools. (again, makes railyard bombing more productive, especially when there's already a shortage)

Items 1 and 4 only come into play when using the East Front option.

It will likely be several weeks before these changes are made available as a beta version as some of these still need further internal testing. I just wanted to let people know that we continue to work on improving the game and we do try to respond to the feedback we see from players in the forum. This doesn't mean the game isn't playable now, it just means that we hope to continue to improve the game's fidelity as we get more information.




The points 3 and 6 are sounding very promising.
Point 5 sounds a bit harsh, having railyards operating at 10% freight handling capacity. I have yet to play the germans but that could greatly change the italian campaign, as damaging railyards is relativly easy there. Does this also affects national supply sources ?

< Message edited by soeren01 -- 5/29/2015 10:15:26 AM >


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