Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

The rapidity of Japan's rise caused problems of it's own, as you can see from looking at the status of Japan's industry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

Ciao. JWE

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill

Seems the Chinese are acting the same today.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

quote:

mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

quote:

wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

quote:

Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

quote:

wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

warspite1

This is a point I have been making repeatedly on these forums (WITP-AE, General Discussion and WIF) and asking the question below in the hope that someone who has an understanding of things can enlighten me. I am really keen to understand this.

quote:

Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

warspite1

So if what you say is true - which I am sure it is - it does not explain the fundamental question. Japan is 70%-80% uninhabitable, it has very few natural resources of its own. How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

I can understand (I think) how the Soviets did it - brutal regime allied to a vast country with huge mineral deposits and resources and similarly China - but Japan? Where does the cash come from to buy the materials to build the railways? What does Japan use to pay for this? How could Japan do something that no other poorer countries seem able to do?

I wish I understood economics better

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

quote:

wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

warspite1

This is a point I have been making repeatedly on these forums (WITP-AE, General Discussion and WIF) and asking the question below in the hope that someone who has an understanding of things can enlighten me. I am really keen to understand this.

quote:

Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

warspite1

So if what you say is true - which I am sure it is - it does not explain the fundamental question. Japan is 70%-80% uninhabitable, it has very few natural resources of its own. How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

I can understand (I think) how the Soviets did it - brutal regime allied to a vast country with huge mineral deposits and resources and similarly China - but Japan? Where does the cash come from to buy the materials to build the railways? What does Japan use to pay for this? How could Japan do something that no other poorer countries seem able to do?

I wish I understood economics better

Don't have time now to go into details but Symon is correct.

1. The transformation of Japan began well before the Meiii Restoration. It is an urban myth, perpetuated for political reasons, to attribute the "great leap forward" to it.

2. Even if one argues that a "great leap forward" did occur, the starting date should be considered, at the latest, as 1850 even before Perry's visit. Personally I consider 1820 to be a better candidate date.

3. The great stimulus to the Japanese was the Russian expansion into the Far East of the late C18th. That is what spurred the Bakufu to colonise Sakhalin and expand on Hokkaido.

4. By 1700, Japan had already developed a sophisticated banking system superior to most European countries of the time. Osaka was a great financial clearing house built on the large capital surpluses generated each year from rice.

5. Even before railway links were built, internal Japanese transportation links were good.

6. The Bakufu bureaucracy was well trained and generally not corrupt. It allowed for two way movement of ideas and implementation with minimal internal resistance.

7. Japanese literacy was better than in most European countries.


It is simply not accurate to view mid C19th Japan as a feudal society akin to C15th Europe. In most key indicators it was at a comparable state to that applicable to those European countries which had begun to industrialise between 1800-1850.

Alfred

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Don't have time now to go into details but Symon is correct.

1. The transformation of Japan began well before the Meiii Restoration. It is an urban myth, perpetuated for political reasons, to attribute the "great leap forward" to it.

2. Even if one argues that a "great leap forward" did occur, the starting date should be considered, at the latest, as 1850 even before Perry's visit. Personally I consider 1820 to be a better candidate date.

3. The great stimulus to the Japanese was the Russian expansion into the Far East of the late C18th. That is what spurred the Bakufu to colonise Sakhalin and expand on Hokkaido.

4. By 1700, Japan had already developed a sophisticated banking system superior to most European countries of the time. Osaka was a great financial clearing house built on the large capital surpluses generated each year from rice.

5. Even before railway links were built, internal Japanese transportation links were good.

6. The Bakufu bureaucracy was well trained and generally not corrupt. It allowed for two way movement of ideas and implementation with minimal internal resistance.

7. Japanese literacy was better than in most European countries.


It is simply not accurate to view mid C19th Japan as a feudal society akin to C15th Europe. In most key indicators it was at a comparable state to that applicable to those European countries which had begun to industrialise between 1800-1850.

Alfred

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


...

As I said, I do not doubt what Symon wrote, nor what you have written here - and the idea that the Japanese were more advanced than has been portrayed in some writings, does help explain some aspects.

However, what I am really keen to understand is the economics. An efficient banking system is of course crucial and the comment about the rice surpluses generating capital is interesting. I guess where I am struggling is the idea that the Japanese had supposedly cut themselves off from the outside world. If that is true, how do these surpluses arise in 1700?

Equally, the education system of a nation - and the literacy of its people - are fundamental to success (perhaps the Soviet Union and China contradict that?) but at the end of the day, how does that translate into Japan get the resources it needs to build railways let alone 64,000 ton battleships?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


...

As I said, I do not doubt what Symon wrote, nor what you have written here - and the idea that the Japanese were more advanced than has been portrayed in some writings, does help explain some aspects.

However, what I am really keen to understand is the economics. An efficient banking system is of course crucial and the comment about the rice surpluses generating capital is interesting. I guess where I am struggling is the idea that the Japanese had supposedly cut themselves off from the outside world. If that is true, how do these surpluses arise in 1700?

Equally, the education system of a nation - and the literacy of its people - are fundamental to success (perhaps the Soviet Union and China contradict that?) but at the end of the day, how does that translate into Japan get the resources it needs to build railways let alone 64,000 ton battleships?

You will understand that often a lot is written on a subject which is frankly just uninformed. Particularly when there is a significant language barrier. Not too many Anglo-Saxon authors have mastery over the Japanese language and hence most Japanese scholarly works are not fully appreciated in the west, let alone a detailed examination of Japanese sources. Nor is much translated into English.

1. The Bakufu never fully cut off Japan from the world. For political/social reasons, primarily to avoid contact with the revolutionary concept of Christianity, contact was limited to a yearly Dutch fleet arriving in Nagasaki. But the Chinese, who were not viewed as being as dangerous politically/socially were allocated about a hundred shipping licences yearly for trade. Chinese traders maintained a very large community at Nagasaki and carried Japanese products (silk being amongst the most important but also copper) back to China and Manila. From Manila product was then shipped by the Spanish in their yearly Manila to Mexico convoy.

2. A very big translation service was established in Nagasaki. Until well into the C17th Portuguese was the language of commerce with the west; Dutch only fully supplanting it in the second half of the century. Not only did the Dutch ship records need to be surrendered in order to be translated, Dutch captains were interrogated and required to present themselves at Edo. Orders for European books were also placed by the Bakufu.

3. Japanese farming was not subsistence farming. This is one of the main mistakes people make when they think of the economy as being feudal a la C14/15th Europe. Yes, there were periods of food shortages but generally there was a healthy surplus which allowed for capital accumulation which was invested in internal infrastructure. Unlike Europe, there was very little economic destruction resulting from war or social upheaval.

4. The Japanese "currency" system was based on rice. Farm rents were calculated on rice units. The Daimyo paid their large retinues on the basis of rice units. Of course that is somewhat bulky so gold and silver coins were also in circulation but they represented rice units.

5. In the last 16 years of the Bakufu, which is when the great expansion of foreign trade began, Japanese agricultural surpluses were sufficient to cover the necessary foreign exchange to pay for their imports of capital equipment. That equipment went primarily into transportation which in turn reduced the costs of production, and the rapidly expanding textile sector whose exports took over later in the C19th from agriculture in terms of importance.


What happened post 1914 is something for another day. Suffice to say that post 1920, their existing economic model really became dependent on acquiring secured markets in China.

Alfred

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

The short and nasty version is that the Japanese bought machines to make the goods themselves, rather than buying the goods someone else had made.

Japan was fairly unique in Asia in that:

- The social and economic situation was suitable for rapid industrialization
- Major world powers were content to assist the Japanese. Japanese shipbuild was kickstarted by foriegn experts.
- Lack of interference from nations with colonial ambitions. It's worth noting that Japan, along with Thailand, were really the only nations other than China to truely preserve their independence.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I read a story about a Frenchman who traveled the world in the early 1800s and wrote about his adventures. He predicted both Russia and the US would become great powers. Both were poised to conquer continents. He also predicted the two countries would evolve differently, he pointed out that the US had to conquer the untamed land in a sparsely populated continent, but Russia had to conquer territory that had been occupied for millennia.

I don't recall the name of the guy, but somebody here probably knows it.

North America is extremely rich in natural resources plus most of it is temperate, which did aid the US in becoming such a dominant power. The evolution was rapid and it was on a massive scale. One feat I think is pretty unique in world history is the US is the only power to win a two front war and make advances on both fronts simultaneously. It is also the only continental power I know of that also has/had a top tier navy.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I read a story about a Frenchman who traveled the world in the early 1800s and wrote about his adventures. He predicted both Russia and the US would become great powers. Both were poised to conquer continents. He also predicted the two countries would evolve differently, he pointed out that the US had to conquer the untamed land in a sparsely populated continent, but Russia had to conquer territory that had been occupied for millennia.

I don't recall the name of the guy, but somebody here probably knows it.

North America is extremely rich in natural resources plus most of it is temperate, which did aid the US in becoming such a dominant power. The evolution was rapid and it was on a massive scale. One feat I think is pretty unique in world history is the US is the only power to win a two front war and make advances on both fronts simultaneously. It is also the only continental power I know of that also has/had a top tier navy.

Bill

Alexis de Tocqueville http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Not wanting to step on a nice thread, thought I would make some comments, here. Chuck's stuff shows the confused, dislocated, disturbed and deranged thinking of the IJ Naval Ministry in the war period.

Poor Unryu is the poster child for just how incompetent the IJ Navy Ministry was in the early war period (and the mid war, and late war, and basically, the whole war period in general). Just look at her stats and the the stats of similar US carriers.

IJN Unryu:
Sept 1941 - authorized
August 1942 – laid down
September 1943 – launched
August 1944 – ‘completed’
That’s 24 months from keel to completion. Amagi took 22 months from keel to completion. Katsuragi took 22 months from keel to completion.

....

quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

From a product developer's perspective it shows a) lack of the sponsor for the project b) possible bad Project management c) also bad scoping wrt to the end product ( unryu was a late 30's model IMHO ) - essentially they turned a product so late it was obsolete by the time it rolled out....

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

From a product developer's perspective it shows a) lack of the sponsor for the project b) possible bad Project management c) also bad scoping wrt to the end product ( unryu was a late 30's model IMHO ) - essentially they turned a product so late it was obsolete by the time it rolled out....

The Hiryu was a proven design that was cheaper to build than more complex ships like the Shokakus or Taiyo. With the war looming, a ready to go design was favored over something more involved, though they build the Taiyo too. Another sign that the planners weren't completely with the objective.

The USN also built a compromise design in the Independence class. They were too small can cramped to operate dive bombers and they had a complement only a little larger than a CVE. The USN built them as a stop gap because they didn't think they were going to have many Essex class until mid-44 or later. In the end, the shipyards managed to build the Essexes faster than expected. But that was an unexpected bonus of the American style of manufacturing at the time.

Bill