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RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/27/2015 3:23:02 AM   
Roghain


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/15/2006
From: Ede, Netherlands
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Good morning Dante. Yeah, it's big. I am starting to think this is bigger than the vaunted 'Europa' series of days yore
Or maybe... 'The Longest Day'. At least, the pieces can't be shattered all over the map or kitchen floor by a cross breeze. ASL seems simple in comparison.

Thing is with the forums - there is almost too much information and as a newbie, it seems all but impossible to distill what you need - and what can wait. I tend to go back to history and see what was done when and why and try to use that in the game. It makes for slow going, because all of a sudden I have spent two hours on reading stuff on Hyperwar or Combined Fleet, but like it was pointed out someplace above - time well wasted.
As to time being in short supply - I hear you. I have started a citizen's campaign to have my elected representatives get going and rally for the 48 hour day. As it turns out - they'd rather bail out Big Money

_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to Dante Fierro)
Post #: 31
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/27/2015 3:29:59 AM   
Dante Fierro


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From: Idaho Falls
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LOL What do they say Roghain? Patience is a virtue?

Methinks by the time we're both done, we'll have become avatars of virtue.

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 32
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/27/2015 1:39:31 PM   
Roghain


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/15/2006
From: Ede, Netherlands
Status: offline
Well, I always wondered that.




Of course, now I also wonder if this, my 25th anniversary post, will net me a ban on account of being a rude Dutchman. Perhaps, to stay in character, I should be rude in Japanese.

Chikushō!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Roghain -- 5/27/2015 2:44:57 PM >


_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to Dante Fierro)
Post #: 33
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/27/2015 8:26:19 PM   
Haarlem

 

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From: The Netherlands
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Ha, a fellow Dutchie, good luck with this splendid game !

"Je moet schieten, anders kun je niet scoren"
"You'll have to shoot, otherwise you can't score."

-- Johan Cruijff

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 34
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/27/2015 8:46:08 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

Perhaps, to stay in character, I should be rude in Japanese.

Chikushō!


I don't know what that means, but based on content I'll bet its not 'Howdy'.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Haarlem)
Post #: 35
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 5/28/2015 10:12:07 AM   
Roghain


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/15/2006
From: Ede, Netherlands
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Oh, not to worry. The Japanese - in contrary to my fellow Dutch - are even when they curse rather polite. This one, for instance, would translate as something like 'Oh, hell' or 'Oh, crap' but even that doesn't do it justice. It originates (if I am told correctly) in re-incarnation and suggests that the object being adressed will reincarnate as some form of beast or livestock. That is also the literal meaning of the word 'Chikushō'. In modern day Japanese, it is used like we say (for instance) 'damn'.

_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 36
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/5/2015 12:51:56 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
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Responses in bold:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

Besides questions, I also ran into a few things that are not too obvious to a new player, but have a huge impact and need to be watched - or so I reckon. I also will keep some sort of rack of where I am at current. I will colour fully answered Qs green, and those open red. Yes, that does leave orange for half-answered (half open? depends on your philosophical outlook)

Game status:

As of last date edited (qv). Playing will be mostly limited to weekends, but some early morning activity might happen.

Game date: December 8th, 1941.
Currently doing; Entering orders from spreadsheet by Kull. Page 14 of 80.

Questions:

01) Kull's sheet mentions turning on upgrades and replacements on all LCUs except those in Manchuko and Korea. How does one select all units in a certain area?
-- Apparently, you cannot. best way to get around this is by finding out which HQs are deployed to the area you want to change, then select all the ground units attached to said HQ. needles to say, this means that when units are spread across various areas, you will select too many.

That would probably be a mistake on my part. Upgrades especially should be "off" almost universally because you might upgrade fragments and be unable to combine units into say, Divisions, until ALL the others have upgraded. Reinforcements are probably OK to have on, except in the noted regions. One less thing to worry about, especially when just learning the game.

03) If an air-unit is set to train, is it safe to say you should always set the range to 0 in order to minimize accidentally running into trouble? And setting training to 100% and range 0, is that gamey?
-- Most players do that I suppose. Higher % means more pilots from the unit are training, and with range 0 their fatigue is minimal. But the training operational loss rates are minimal anyway. Note that some house rules limit training schedules tom 80%.

Set the range to Zero on training units, or else the fatigue will definitely climb - especially at 100%

04) Kull's sheet sets the planes of CS Mizuho at the same mission (naval search) but different percentages: the Petes go 45%, the Jakes 55%. There seems to be little difference between the two units except the fatigue, though minor (Petes fatigue 1, Jakes 0). Is that indeed the deciding factor here?

There really is no difference between 45 and 55. I think they both start at 25, and that's just too low. Probably also better off to have your Pete's on ASW and the Jakes on Search, simply for range reasons.

10) In Kull's spreadsheet, I fail to understand why LCUs with almost identical destinations and orders how to get there have varying 'Future objectives'. From what I understand, using the 'Future objective' is all but mandatory for successful attacks?

Quite often the first destination isn't really the place you'll need prep points for an attack. It takes a looooong time to get a unit up to 100% from zero (or even 25-33 if you switch a 100 prepped unit to a new objective), and the Japanese need to string together a lot of conquests in a fairly short period of time. Also many of their early opponents are so weak, you can attack with no points and still wipe out the opposition. The spreadsheet can only suggest so much, and the different objectives are kind of a clue about how to sequentially deploy your forces.

11) Speaking of future objectives - is it me or are only (potential) bases valid objectives? Why?

Yes, you can't choose non-base hexes, if that's what you mean. As to why, probably limited utility in the minds of the coders, and thus better things to spend limited coding time on. The majority of your tough targets are sitting at some sort of base, anyway.

12) LCUs - I am unable to set waypoints for them like for TFs. WAD of am I missing something?

WAD

13) I keep struggling with details. I understand the need to set various altitudes for different types of planes flying different missions. But why would I want to have different altitudes for identical planes flying identical missions? Kull's sheet has a unit divide, then rebase to three different locations. All three sub-groups fly the same mission with identical parameters, but one is set to 20k, one to 15k and one to 10k. Why? What is the deciding factor here?

Air combat is a very interesting topic all by itself, and there can be many reasons for different altitudes. Bombers attacking targets with weak AA might as well go in as low as possible. Don't try that at Singapore, however! If they are fighters on defense, who and what is the likely attacker? In Malaya, those nasty stringbags (Vildebeeest and the fearsome Swordfish) will slip under your CAP if you set it too high, so even though the low CAP would be more vulnerable to a sweep (and less effective versus escorts), if you have expensive naval assets nearby, it's worth the risk. And there's probably 100s of other variables, which will slowly become apparent.



In a later post you noted that the spreadsheet becomes less useful after a few turns, and that is quite true, especially because every individual will have his own particular desires, that may not match up with my short-to-medium term objectives.

But that is totally OK! Because after a couple turns, you're knowledge of the workings will increases exponentially, just because you sat there entering in commands and destinations and setting altitudes and forming task forces, and a myriad other things.

And most of all wondering "why?", and then slowly figuring it out! Because that's where the real learning comes in.

It is a great game and I'm always thrilled to hear that my efforts (and those of the many others who spent time on tutorials and tools) have contributed toward someone's decision to join our grand adventure! Welcome aboard!

< Message edited by Kull -- 6/5/2015 1:55:27 AM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/15/2015 9:32:09 PM   
jallison86


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Just want to say that I'm very pleased to have found this thread. I've just taken the plunge into AE after years of playing the basic game. Even with that base of knowledge I'm really wondering if I've bitten off more than I want to chew. The game looks terrific, of course, compared to WitP. But there's just a staggering amount of stuff going on. Firing up the first turn as the Allies and I see lots of B-17 units in the US. But I guess they disappear soon? Much more sophisticated chain of command too, it looks like, no more simple "West Coast" or "Central Pacific" commands. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...many more bases, lots of new ship types, lots of new aircraft types, and on and on. Much reading to do before diving in I guess. I downloaded the spreadsheet mentioned in the initial post and that's a great help. Will start nibbling and see what I can learn.

- Jeff

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 38
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/15/2015 9:53:47 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jallison86

Just want to say that I'm very pleased to have found this thread. I've just taken the plunge into AE after years of playing the basic game. Even with that base of knowledge I'm really wondering if I've bitten off more than I want to chew. The game looks terrific, of course, compared to WitP. But there's just a staggering amount of stuff going on. Firing up the first turn as the Allies and I see lots of B-17 units in the US. But I guess they disappear soon? Much more sophisticated chain of command too, it looks like, no more simple "West Coast" or "Central Pacific" commands. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...many more bases, lots of new ship types, lots of new aircraft types, and on and on. Much reading to do before diving in I guess. I downloaded the spreadsheet mentioned in the initial post and that's a great help. Will start nibbling and see what I can learn.

- Jeff


It'll take time but IMHO its worth it.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to jallison86)
Post #: 39
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/16/2015 2:20:28 AM   
Roghain


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Thanks Kull for stopping by and clarifying stuff. Much obliged for that as well as the tremendous sheet. As to figuring 'why', that's a given.

Last few weekends have been filled with other stuff and so not much has happened on the far-eastern front. Busy playing '2nd Fleet' and then there's the garden, housekeeping. Still, I must be really slow. So far I have been busy entering orders for about 10 hours or so and not even past the quarter mark on the spreadsheet. I need to speed up stuff or it will move from a 'chore' to 'boring work' and eventually to 'forgeddaboudit'. By now, I am beginning to think that the single most offsetting factor isn't the complexity, but the sheer amount of playing pieces one needs to give instructions to. I am, to be honest, only hanging in there because so many of you people can't be wrong about how great a game this is.

_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 40
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/16/2015 3:42:48 AM   
wdolson

 

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The first turn of the Grand Campaign is painful, but I've found subsequent turns take about as much effort as WitP did and you have aids you didn't have with WitP like more routing options for TFs that lessen the micromanagement.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 41
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/16/2015 3:59:13 AM   
Roghain


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From: Ede, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

... and you have aids ...

Bill


You don't say

But thanks for the headsup

_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 42
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/19/2015 10:18:00 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Without work no reward.... It really is is not all that bad and dare I say, perhaps you should be less ambitious... Just go for it and figure out how it works along the way. Chances are you'll have all your carriers sunk on your first real encounter anyway...

No pain, no gain!

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 43
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/21/2015 8:00:04 AM   
Yaab


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From: Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

Thanks Kull for stopping by and clarifying stuff. Much obliged for that as well as the tremendous sheet. As to figuring 'why', that's a given.

Last few weekends have been filled with other stuff and so not much has happened on the far-eastern front. Busy playing '2nd Fleet' and then there's the garden, housekeeping. Still, I must be really slow. So far I have been busy entering orders for about 10 hours or so and not even past the quarter mark on the spreadsheet. I need to speed up stuff or it will move from a 'chore' to 'boring work' and eventually to 'forgeddaboudit'. By now, I am beginning to think that the single most offsetting factor isn't the complexity, but the sheer amount of playing pieces one needs to give instructions to. I am, to be honest, only hanging in there because so many of you people can't be wrong about how great a game this is.


My advice is to create your own document with all the orders for the first turn. I have created a Word document for this purpose. Its first iterations were ten pages long. The latest one, amended in March 2015, has grown to twenty-one pages. Also, I devote about thirty save game slots just to turn one. You can input the orders in increments and backtrack if you feel you need to change them.

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 44
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/22/2015 9:51:45 PM   
jallison86


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

Still, I must be really slow. So far I have been busy entering orders for about 10 hours or so and not even past the quarter mark on the spreadsheet. I need to speed up stuff or it will move from a 'chore' to 'boring work' and eventually to 'forgeddaboudit'. By now, I am beginning to think that the single most offsetting factor isn't the complexity, but the sheer amount of playing pieces one needs to give instructions to. I am, to be honest, only hanging in there because so many of you people can't be wrong about how great a game this is.

I hear you...I'm in the same boat. I finally decided that I wasn't going to do all the stuff there, just some of it. Basically I am ignoring China. Say what you will about that, but I don't find it all that interesting and I don't think the war can be won or lost in China. I probably should have chosen the "Quiet China" scenario but that didn't occur to me until a whole bunch of time was spent issuing turn one orders and I don't really feel like redoing all that.

I feel that there are two broad areas that I don't have a good grip on:

* Supply sources and routing. In WitP you pretty much had Karachi and San Francisco as Allied supply sources. Great, one on each side of the map. Your job is to get supplies from there to your far flung forces. Waypoints would seem to make this a LOT easier in AE as you don't need to send your supply TF's to some point out in the boonies and remember to pull them in from there later. What I am not sure of is whether Karachi and SF will continue to be supply founts or if this function has been effectively moved to off-map locales like Eastern US and Cape Town. I guess we'll see :)

* Base forces scattered around the US and Canada. Do I need a base force in Ogden, UT? In Winnipeg? Probably not. Again, in WitP, I would move base forces from places like Portland or "USA" to SF for shipment to somewhere useful. The only thing to remember was to quickly move air units that showed up there later so they didn't rot from lack of support. I don't know if this same strategy will work in AE or not. Seems like kind of a PITA to catalog all these homeland forces and get them somewhere where there's fighting going on. But perhaps there is a subtlety here that I'm missing. Again, we'll see.

I pulled the trigger on turn 1 to see how the game plays. I'm just playing the AI so I'm happy to blunder through and learn by doing. I only hope I am not missing glaring things. There are still things in WitP I don't understand (like what are the EAB units for?), so I'm sure there will be much I'm missing here.

- Jeff

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 45
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/23/2015 12:48:22 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jallison86
I hear you...I'm in the same boat. I finally decided that I wasn't going to do all the stuff there, just some of it. Basically I am ignoring China. Say what you will about that, but I don't find it all that interesting and I don't think the war can be won or lost in China. I probably should have chosen the "Quiet China" scenario but that didn't occur to me until a whole bunch of time was spent issuing turn one orders and I don't really feel like redoing all that.

I feel that there are two broad areas that I don't have a good grip on:

* Supply sources and routing. In WitP you pretty much had Karachi and San Francisco as Allied supply sources. Great, one on each side of the map. Your job is to get supplies from there to your far flung forces. Waypoints would seem to make this a LOT easier in AE as you don't need to send your supply TF's to some point out in the boonies and remember to pull them in from there later. What I am not sure of is whether Karachi and SF will continue to be supply founts or if this function has been effectively moved to off-map locales like Eastern US and Cape Town. I guess we'll see :)


In North America, supply will gravitate towards the west coast ports. You can set the ports you want to use for supply points to draw more supply, but within a few months North America will be awash in supply. India can make enough supply for its own needs with a little extra, but you need to ship fuel from off map to keep the HI there going. Supply in the the Far East (west side of the map) will be a bit tight at times. You will get large supply convoys that arrive at Cape Town. I usually station some of the largest xAKs at Cape Town to haul this supply where it's needed.

quote:


* Base forces scattered around the US and Canada. Do I need a base force in Ogden, UT? In Winnipeg? Probably not. Again, in WitP, I would move base forces from places like Portland or "USA" to SF for shipment to somewhere useful. The only thing to remember was to quickly move air units that showed up there later so they didn't rot from lack of support. I don't know if this same strategy will work in AE or not. Seems like kind of a PITA to catalog all these homeland forces and get them somewhere where there's fighting going on. But perhaps there is a subtlety here that I'm missing. Again, we'll see.


In NA you need to train pilots. I usually use the permanently restricted base forces to build up every base over time. When bases get size 8 or 9, the air support doubles, which helps with training pilots with fewer base forces. Pilot training is an important part of long term strategy.

quote:


I pulled the trigger on turn 1 to see how the game plays. I'm just playing the AI so I'm happy to blunder through and learn by doing. I only hope I am not missing glaring things. There are still things in WitP I don't understand (like what are the EAB units for?), so I'm sure there will be much I'm missing here.

- Jeff


There are a couple of different types of engineer squads. Engineer squads just called "Engineers" or "Engineer Vehicle" are for building bases and fortifications. A lot of combat units have small cadres of building engineers, but EAB units are dedicated building units. Combat engineers are used for tearing down fortifications and assaults those squad types have a nationality included like "US Army Engineer". To maintain aircraft, you need Aviation Support squads in your unit. Air HQs are usually pure Aviation Support, base forces usually have a mix of building engineers, aviation support, AA, regular support, and radar.

Regular support is not absolutely necessary, but all non-support squads need support. Most combat units need external support to do things like recover fatigue, refit, train, etc. Having non-combat units with extra support in the hex will bring the entire hex up to enough support to maximize recovery and training effects.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to jallison86)
Post #: 46
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 6/23/2015 2:56:01 PM   
jallison86


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Thanks for the feedback...very useful. Will be poring over the manual looking for pilot training info as this is all new to me.

And apologies to Roghain for hijacking his thread.

- Jeff

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 47
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 7:11:47 AM   
Roghain


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From: Ede, Netherlands
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I realise I have been silent for a while. My bad. And no worries about hijacking this

Here's an update.

I have now spent close to 30 hours on entering orders to the Japanese units. I reckon I have done about 35-40% - if that. I am getting very, very bored and not motivated at all to get onwith it. I fear the second turn - having to run through the endless lists of units again and again, that not fun at all.
I must be missing somthing, because I really don't think I am that slow, or more stupid, or what-have-you. I just am not 'getting it'. And getting very annoyed too. I WANT to like this. I WANT to understand it - but that's just it. The rules, I understand most of the internal workings. Enough to play all small scenario's and win them against the AI. I understand the GUI (what little there is of it - I find it to be very, very user unfriendly). I just fail to find the screen that shows me aal units in Birma that have no orders. All units in DEI low on torpedoes.

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units. The lack of overview screens is, so far, the biggest stumbling block for me.
Now, this is all even BEFORE I played one turn. I just don't see how I could ever do this for 1400+ turns. That's not a game - thats a bloody day-job.

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.

_____________________________

"If tolerance is taken to the point where it tolerates the destruction of those same principles that made tolerance possible in the first place, it becomes intolerable." - Gaetano Mosca -

(in reply to jallison86)
Post #: 48
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 7:44:09 AM   
cohimbra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units.

Don't do it, you don't need it. You must force yourself to play light, step by step. It's not necessary at all that you set all order of all units all turns. There's an advice in Sardaukar AAR (for newbie) that I like and agree: DON'T PANIC! Game is immense, but you do not have to consume it all right away. Like family-size pizza, you can take it slice by slice [...] Remember, as Allies, you do not have to do everything during first turn.



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Post #: 49
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 7:54:09 AM   
paradigmblue

 

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You're simply trying doing too much on the first turn. Even the very best and most detail oriented Japanese players will not issue orders to every unit. For the first turn, set up your attacks on Pearl, the Philippines and the DEI, and then call it good. Second turn, maybe look at China and begin consolidating your forces there. Next turn, look at sub operations, and the next work on consolidating your shipping and supply runs.

What I'm getting at is that if you try to do everything at once, it's going to feel un-fun and be completely overwhelming. Especially if you haven't played a Grand Campaign before, I would begin trying to do the minimum each turn. Let the game develop and then respond to the changing situation. By the time you're in January, you'll be naturally working on all aspects of the game organically. You'll have increased your Zero production, and probably your engines for your Zeroes, because you see that your current production isn't enough. You'll have started to import oil from the DEI because you'll see that your reserves aren't as large as they first look. You'll be formulating plans in China, and moving and preparing your ground forces appropriately.

The key is here that none of this had to happen on the first turn. In fact, if you try to touch every unit your first turn you'll probably be wasting effort, as the orders that you're issuing them - when you haven't even had contact with the enemy yet - will probably be obsolete a month from now. Having large operational plans and putting in the necessary preparation to pull them off is important, but those plans will change as the war changes. Don't feel like you have to fight battles that haven't happened yet.

(in reply to Roghain)
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RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 9:08:09 AM   
ndworl

 

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My senior military advisor thinks your guy needs a haircut.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 51
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 11:17:12 AM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I realise I have been silent for a while. My bad. And no worries about hijacking this

Here's an update.

I have now spent close to 30 hours on entering orders to the Japanese units. I reckon I have done about 35-40% - if that. I am getting very, very bored and not motivated at all to get onwith it. I fear the second turn - having to run through the endless lists of units again and again, that not fun at all.
I must be missing somthing, because I really don't think I am that slow, or more stupid, or what-have-you. I just am not 'getting it'. And getting very annoyed too. I WANT to like this. I WANT to understand it - but that's just it. The rules, I understand most of the internal workings. Enough to play all small scenario's and win them against the AI. I understand the GUI (what little there is of it - I find it to be very, very user unfriendly). I just fail to find the screen that shows me aal units in Birma that have no orders. All units in DEI low on torpedoes.

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units. The lack of overview screens is, so far, the biggest stumbling block for me.
Now, this is all even BEFORE I played one turn. I just don't see how I could ever do this for 1400+ turns. That's not a game - thats a bloody day-job.

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.

It is very time intensive for the Japanese for the first year and in particular for the first 6mths. It had been suggested that some guys that are vet's of the game uploaded some of their opening moves, but there was little traction. Guess they didn't want to reveal too much.

Anyway Roghain, I'm glad you enjoyed my video's and the economic doc I did. I know it is a little heavy but it is what it is. I could actually include more but ... time is of the essence and I'm sure you guys love discovering nuances about the game rather than being told.

Cheers


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(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 52
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 1:44:37 PM   
Roghain


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/15/2006
From: Ede, Netherlands
Status: offline
Haircut, eh? Mind if I let you inform my advisor/ I am kinda sorta attached to my limbs.

@ Damian - I do find them very insightful and of great help in understanding the inner workings of the game-engine. I do not intend to sound like a whiner - I really do appreciate all the help I found here. I will look into the advise now recently added in my 'wanting to do too much'. One of the members here offered to play against me in order to learn - I would like to take him up on that provided he can stand my slowness.
Perhaps I have been over-preparing. perhaps my experience with Victory Games' Pacific War boardgame and HoI has made my expectations look in the wrong way - I do have a large strategic plan, but I figured i needed to get things 'right' (FWIW) from the getgo.

This weekend I happen to have few chores, no social obligations other than eating and drinking so I am determined to try and get all things sorted and press 'end turn'. Maybe I am a fool into wanting to control everything and should I let things slide a tad and just try to enjoy myself.

or maybe is it good, to want to organise and structure everything when playing Japan. Cultural bias, I dunno.

I'll keep you posted.

And no offence!

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(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 53
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 4:17:49 PM   
jallison86


Posts: 48
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff

(in reply to Roghain)
Post #: 54
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/17/2015 5:37:47 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jallison86

I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff


Many of us not-so-jokingly refer to the game as "Logistics in the Pacific", and there's more than a little truth to that. Players really have to enjoy that aspect of the game, as that's the majority of your activity. Invasions and sea battles are great fun, but they are relatively infrequent (especially for the Allied player at the start, well, other than serving as a punching bag). And worse (better?) your plans won't be successful if the player hasn't done his homework and built up bases, moved supplies and fuel, trained pilots properly, etc, etc.

It's a BIG GAME, in every sense.

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Post #: 55
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/18/2015 1:36:58 AM   
paradigmblue

 

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline
Edit: Whoops, wrong topic.

< Message edited by paradigmblue -- 7/18/2015 2:36:39 AM >

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 56
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/18/2015 2:35:22 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jallison86

I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff

And there is always the original witp which in some ways is a little "lighter" but still a load of fun

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Post #: 57
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/18/2015 5:40:24 AM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline
I have been watching this thread for a while and finally offered to play Roghain (PMd him), as I am myself getting back in the game after a long time away and have always been a rather conventional player in regards to the kind of game I play. Tend to think historically (as i read a lot about this theater of the war) so I don't go to far off the reservation looking for ways to game the system. (I understand why players do though). Feel like a new player would feel less threatened by the games learning curve if his opponent is in the same boat. That offer holds to any newbie who wants to do it that way. I have time and just plain enjoyed the game when I was playing.



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Post #: 58
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/18/2015 4:27:09 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

I have been watching this thread for a while and finally offered to play Roghain (PMd him), as I am myself getting back in the game after a long time away and have always been a rather conventional player in regards to the kind of game I play. Tend to think historically (as i read a lot about this theater of the war) so I don't go to far off the reservation looking for ways to game the system. (I understand why players do though). Feel like a new player would feel less threatened by the games learning curve if his opponent is in the same boat. That offer holds to any newbie who wants to do it that way. I have time and just plain enjoyed the game when I was playing.




Good luck to both of you in your game!

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Post #: 59
RE: Starting out - drowning vs swimming - 7/18/2015 4:34:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.


Much like publishing a journal paper, the first turn process requires brevity, but still needs to make a point and stick to it. Yes, it takes an inordinate amount of time, but like others have said, don't feel as though you have to get it all done at once.

For myself, it *still* takes 20-25 hours for the first turn. But I've done it before too and know what I'm trying to do. To achieve ahistorical results, there is a premium on speed and audacity in the first few turns. One can't accomplish this by omitting much of the needful. Then again, my opinion is that you shouldn't be attempting to squeeze the nth degree out of your first PBEM game.

Again, like journal submissions, once you start getting sick to death of looking at the thing (after about the 7th revision) then put it in the mail and be done with it. It will probably work out in the long run.

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Post #: 60
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