RE: SCALE

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: SCALE

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Scourge of War: Waterloo >> RE: SCALE

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 3:29:26 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

Holy Crap! I just read the english language part of the HistWar forum. Not only has no one posted since March, there were nothing but complaints from many players about some basic gameplay issues. I used to check in there all the time to see what progress has been made. I stopped about a year ago and am shocked that so many bugs still exist and are admitted to by the developer. I always worried that HistWar was overly ambitious for the size of the team.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 31

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 4:18:16 PM

BloodyBill76

Posts: 68
Joined: 4/14/2015
Status: offline

I see from Diary #3 that the battalions are broke into companies. Will these companies reflect the historical counterparts. Will there be a Grenadier,Line,Line,Line,Line,Voltigeur. set up to them?

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 32

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 6:34:55 PM

RCHarmon

Posts: 322
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline

Michael T,

SOW Gettysburg is a great game. SOW Waterloo should be better. SOW Gettysburg has a Demo. All you have to do it try it out. Don't waste money just try out the demo.

Being in Australia will be a problem playing SOW. There are games daily with our group, but our group is Englishmen and Americans. Whenever we get Germans and Aussies they have trouble keeping up with the times that we play. I believe that there is a small Aussie group out there. Our games have anywhere from 6 to 22 players.

The developer has to make some concessions with game development. If they make the game to only run on the best computers they will be losing lots of sales. A broad market is what they want. Also, to those who want perfect realism I ask "Do you want to sit at a computer for 8 to 12 hours playing a battle in real time?" I don't have any idea the reasons that they have made the decisions that they have.

If you want to try the full game out (SOW Gettysburg) I have any extra game code that I am willing to let you use to try it out. you can even play with us online after you play against the AI a bit (this is for your own good).

< Message edited by RCH -- 6/4/2015 7:42:07 PM >

(in reply to BloodyBill76)

Post #: 33

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 9:42:20 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

How come nobody can answer my questions?

They seem simple enough.

_____________________________

(in reply to RCHarmon)

Post #: 34

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 11:35:12 PM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

perhaps you should post over at the developers forum.. Bear in mind Matrix are the publishers, so you may get limited responses here as they did not develop the game.

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/5/2015 12:38:34 AM >

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 35

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 11:37:40 PM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

I believe that there is a small Aussie group out there.

yep, small but active :-) We even have our own dedicated voice comms server. Anyone interested in SOW please pm me

cheers

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 36

RE: SCALE - 6/4/2015 11:57:57 PM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

If you want to try the full game out (SOW Gettysburg) I have any extra game code that I am willing to let you use to try it out.

You Sir, are a Scholar and a Gentleman.

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 37

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 12:37:42 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

Hi Rich

I appreciate your advice and opinion. But what you find to be a great game may not be mine. No offence to you intended. But I am somewhat jaded with all the hype about new games and then diving in to find I have watsed my money. BAB being the most recent mistake. So from now on I am going to be very very cautious before buying.

Axis and Allies is a great *game*, but not one I would get my grognard kicks out of. I suspect SOW WL, while it may be a great *game*, may not be what I am looking for in a Napoleonic battle simulator. Hence my questions. The fact that the developer won't answer them and testers can't or won't answer them only make me think they are facts they don't want disclosed.

_____________________________

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 38

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 12:49:45 AM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

The fact that the developer won't answer them and testers can't or won't answer them only make me think they are facts they don't want disclosed.

or perhaps it's 7 days to release? In the dev world that's where the definition of 'time poor' goes into a higher level of meaning.

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 39

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 1:04:04 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

Chris, these facts should be pretty simple to find out. Actually they should be made available well before release. Maybe on release they will be in the product blurb?

But perhaps you could answer some or all the questions but in relation to Gettysburg?

I have a genuine interest in the game. But I need to know some simple facts about scale. If my interest continues I will have more questions.

But I simply am not going to lay down my money anymore and trust in all the hype.

Your gaming group sounds like fun. Something I would enjoy immensely if the game itself comes up to *my* standards.

I do appreciate your input and Rich's, after all we are all kindred spirits.

_____________________________

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 40

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 2:08:09 AM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

Yes good questions, I don't know all the answers but will attempt to tell you what I do know (I have been pestering Norbsoft for an early release of the rulebook but to no avail so far lol..)

- every individual soldier is tracked
- every round and type of round (for all arms) is tracked and displayed in the unit info box (amongst other relevant unit info such as morale, cohesion, state of readiness, quality of training, support, cover, spotted status etc, see the pic)
- standard sprite ratio in GB is 1:4
- game time is the same as 'real life' - that is, if you want to fight the whole Waterloo battle scenario, you'll need 9 HOURS. or you can play the smaller scenarios, they start at 30 mins.
- I don't know about map scales for either game but I do know that the sprites and buildings are larger than in 'real life'. I read the maps take months as they are taken from a number of historical and topographical sources.
- no idea on lOS either other than to say my experience shows that depending on the topography, hidden maneuver can create some rather awkward situations if done right :-)

btw I know what you mean re bab. I have been following those forums carefully as I was very disappointed with his previous effort, Conflict of Heroes.

Anyway I fear I am spamming this thread. Hope you stick around to see if it's up your alley :-)

cheers Chris

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/5/2015 3:20:14 AM >

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 41

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 3:15:01 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

So by your reckoning one soldier sprite = 4 actual men?

And you say the soldiers and buildings/terrain are larger than 1:1 with the map. So can you see the natural question now is:

Where is LOS traced from and hinder to/from? The sprite height or some real height you have no idea where is.

So this means either:

If LOS is traced from the *giant* sized sprites and blocked by giant sized obstacles then the LOS bears no semblance of realtiy to the topograhy. As the scales are incongruent.

OR If the LOS is adjusted to account for the mismatch in scale then the player must somehow try and make a judgement based on graphics that are out of whack.

Do you see this point?

You may be tracing every bullet/shot/soldier but if the scale between soldier/obstacle/topo is not 1:1 then you are not fighting Waterloo. I am not sure what you are doing.

And I don't understand why, if like you say every soldeir and bullet is being tracked then why not display every soldier? It takes more PC power to calc every soldiers shot than to simply display a graphic.

_____________________________

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 42

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 5:09:36 AM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

So by your reckoning one soldier sprite = 4 actual men?

yep

quote:

Where is LOS traced from and hinder to/from? The sprite height or some real height you have no idea where is.

I believe it is traced from flag to flag. No idea of the height it's taken from point to point but when firefights were conducted at 100mtrs, and ordnance normally had trajectory in one form or another for longer distance, I am not sure of the importance of this.

quote:

Do you see this point?

I would be concerned as well if I was expecting individual soldier LOS and combat outcomes but it's very much unit vs unit rather than soldier vs soldier...

quote:

And I don't understand why, if like you say every soldeir and bullet is being tracked then why not display every soldier? It takes more PC power to calc every soldiers shot than to simply display a graphic.

Perhaps I wrote that description poorly. Certainly the numbers are tracked but the granularity of combat/LOS calculations and outcomes are unit vs unit.

Any NSD reps are welcome to correct anything I have got wrong :-)

cheers

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/5/2015 6:16:30 AM >

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 43

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 10:07:05 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

quote:

I believe it is traced from flag to flag. No idea of the height it's taken from point to point but when firefights were conducted at 100mtrs, and ordnance normally had trajectory in one form or another for longer distance, I am not sure of the importance of this.

Very important in deployment of Artillery and troops. Wellington was expert in deploying his troops just behind a ridge line almost completely safe from cannon shot. Napoleon an expert in setting up his batteries for maximum effect. If a player can't determine LOS benchmarks, and graphics are skewered to map scale then its all a bit arcade like to be honest.

But each to their own. I will watch for the initial reviews but my gut is telling me to pass on this. Thanks for the info and enjoy the game.

_____________________________

(in reply to e_barkmann)

Post #: 44

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 11:05:54 AM

e_barkmann

Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

Wow, ok :-) Suspect much has been lost in translation. If you're concerned about Wellington's reverse slopes, there will no issue there in terms of replication in the game.

Good gaming to you

cheers

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 6/5/2015 3:39:08 PM >

_____________________________

Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 45

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 6:37:01 PM

RebBugler

Posts: 266
Joined: 9/20/2012
From: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BloodyBill76

I see from Diary #3 that the battalions are broke into companies. Will these companies reflect the historical counterparts. Will there be a Grenadier,Line,Line,Line,Line,Voltigeur. set up to them?

Quick question, and please excuse my ignorance regarding Nap era configurations:

How would Grenadier and Voltigeur companies distinguish themselves from 'normal' battalion companys when the only offensive weapon available to infantry is musket fire?

IOW, if I design an SR1 (1:1 sprite ratio) mod how would these companys behave differently to represent the battalion realistically?

Oops, forgot to answer your question. No, battalion is the smallest unit, but they are designed to 'look' like they they have company units. Still, you can detach smaller skirmish units that can be controlled separately or left to their own devices, primarily, skirmishing.

< Message edited by RebBugler -- 6/5/2015 7:57:29 PM >

_____________________________

Designer - Scourge of War

(in reply to BloodyBill76)

Post #: 46

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 6:55:19 PM

Johnus

Posts: 615
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

Enough about scale already. Does anyone really need a one to one representation of Waterloo? Would not that be a bit unwieldy? Should not some abstraction be acceptable. After all the Civil War SOW's work fine. This is, after all, a wargame. I suspect that neither Napoleon nor Wellington had laptops at the battle, with which they could view any portion of the field immediately. But that will not stop me from enjoying the game.

(in reply to RebBugler)

Post #: 47

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 7:04:12 PM

BloodyBill76

Posts: 68
Joined: 4/14/2015
Status: offline

For the French they would all have the same weapon for the most part. Voltigeurs would be used as the skirmish company for the Battalion and Grenadiers were used as the breaking force during a melee. I was just wondering if the battalion sent out skirmishers would they be volts? Can the separate companies wear the appropriate uniform or will it be a generic uniform?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

quote:

ORIGINAL: BloodyBill76

I see from Diary #3 that the battalions are broke into companies. Will these companies reflect the historical counterparts. Will there be a Grenadier,Line,Line,Line,Line,Voltigeur. set up to them?

Quick question, and please excuse my ignorance regarding Nap era configurations:

How would Grenadier and Voltigeur companies distinguish themselves from 'normal' battalion companys when the only offensive weapon available to infantry is musket fire?

IOW, if I design an SR1 (1:1 sprite ratio) mod how would these companys behave differently to represent the battalion realistically?

Oops, forgot to answer your question. No, battalion is the smallest unit, but they are designed to 'look' like they they have company units. Still, you can detach smaller skirmish units that can be controlled separately or left to their own devices, primarily, skirmishing.

(in reply to RebBugler)

Post #: 48

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 7:10:33 PM

RebBugler

Posts: 266
Joined: 9/20/2012
From: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Enough about scale already. Does anyone really need a one to one representation of Waterloo? Would not that be a bit unwieldy? Should not some abstraction be acceptable. After all the Civil War SOW's work fine. This is, after all, a wargame. I suspect that neither Napoleon nor Wellington had laptops at the battle, with which they could view any portion of the field immediately. But that will not stop me from enjoying the game.

Thank you, I've been wanting to respond like wise but as a SOW rep must restrain myself for obvious reasons. And to be genuinely honest, the adjusted scaling has never been a problem with my battlefield immersion.

Still, for even greater immersion I'd like to add some SR1 designs. These would not only be more realistic but show off the capabilities of the SOW engine in this regard.

_____________________________

Designer - Scourge of War

(in reply to Johnus)

Post #: 49

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 7:20:19 PM

RebBugler

Posts: 266
Joined: 9/20/2012
From: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BloodyBill76

For the French they would all have the same weapon for the most part. Voltigeurs would be used as the skirmish company for the Battalion and Grenadiers were used as the breaking force during a melee. I was just wondering if the battalion sent out skirmishers would they be volts? Can the separate companies wear the appropriate uniform or will it be a generic uniform?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

quote:

ORIGINAL: BloodyBill76

I see from Diary #3 that the battalions are broke into companies. Will these companies reflect the historical counterparts. Will there be a Grenadier,Line,Line,Line,Line,Voltigeur. set up to them?

Quick question, and please excuse my ignorance regarding Nap era configurations:

How would Grenadier and Voltigeur companies distinguish themselves from 'normal' battalion companys when the only offensive weapon available to infantry is musket fire?

IOW, if I design an SR1 (1:1 sprite ratio) mod how would these companys behave differently to represent the battalion realistically?

Oops, forgot to answer your question. No, battalion is the smallest unit, but they are designed to 'look' like they they have company units. Still, you can detach smaller skirmish units that can be controlled separately or left to their own devices, primarily, skirmishing.

Sorry, gotta run, but a quick answer is that the uniforms question is easily doable, the skirmish company no prob but user controlled, and maybe the melee thing with a skill level boost for that company.

I'll get back to this discussion later. Have a good day!

_____________________________

Designer - Scourge of War

(in reply to BloodyBill76)

Post #: 50

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 8:46:59 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

quote:

Thank you, I've been wanting to respond like wise but as a SOW rep must restrain myself for obvious reasons

Restraint??? From what? Why not just answer some simple bloody questions. Your attitude has certainly put me off 100%. Forget it. You lost this potential customer. And a few more I bet.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 6/5/2015 9:47:58 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to RebBugler)

Post #: 51

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 9:02:55 PM

con20or

Posts: 246
Joined: 5/6/2015
Status: offline

Michael T,

Please do not take everything so personally. RebBugler responded positively to the requests on this thread and he has even indicated that he will begin work on a 1:1 scale scenario, as he did for SOWGB - is that not what you asked for?

Some people think a 1:1 scale is vital, some think weapon stats are more important, others the AI, or uniform realism - personally i think fog of war is the most important and only play by courier. We will not all agree with each other, but as NSD reps we have restrain ourselves and keep our opinions to ourselves.

If you do not plan on purchasing the game that is your decision but I hope you change your mind.

_____________________________

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 52

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 9:16:30 PM

Jim_NSD

Posts: 81
Joined: 9/19/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

A couple of questions if anyone could answer please.

What scale is the map?

What scale is a single soldier?

What scale is a building?

How many men does one single foot soldier represent? Is this consistent?

As above for Cavalry and Artillery.

How do any inequalities of scale affect LOS?

Thank you.

Sorry we have been quite busy getting the final details locked down and testing installers.

The map is set so that it covers 4.96 miles per side and reports the distances as accurately as we can calculate.
We have never measured the sprites exactly, they are smaller that GB, guess is somewhere in the 8-10 ft range
The buildings are scaled to look right with the soldier sprites.
Default sprite ratio is 1 sprite = 6 soldiers but this is adjustable on the Options screen. Personally I like to play at 1:4 unless doing a full army battle but that is my own preference.
LOS is not detailed enough so that LOS would reasonably be affected. There were enough people sitting on horses to be 10 ft above ground level anyway.

-Jim

_____________________________

Design Lead: Scourge of War

"My God, if we've not got a cool brain and a big one too, to manage this affair, the nation is ruined forever." Unknown private, 14th Vermont Infantry, 2 July 1863

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 53

RE: SCALE - 6/5/2015 10:05:38 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

quote:

Sorry we have been quite busy getting the final details locked down and testing installers.

The map is set so that it covers 4.96 miles per side and reports the distances as accurately as we can calculate.
We have never measured the sprites exactly, they are smaller that GB, guess is somewhere in the 8-10 ft range
The buildings are scaled to look right with the soldier sprites.
Default sprite ratio is 1 sprite = 6 soldiers but this is adjustable on the Options screen. Personally I like to play at 1:4 unless doing a full army battle but that is my own preference.
LOS is not detailed enough so that LOS would reasonably be affected. There were enough people sitting on horses to be 10 ft above ground level anyway.

Thanks for the answers. Not sure why someone would need to restrain themselves from that. But anyhow thanks again. I will observe the reviews closely. I am interested in this but not sold yet.

Cheers and good luck with it.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jim_NSD)

Post #: 54

RE: SCALE - 6/6/2015 1:32:43 AM

RebBugler

Posts: 266
Joined: 9/20/2012
From: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Status: offline

Michael T,

My 'restraint' statement had nothing to do with not answering your questions. It was simply about agreeing with Johnnie's statement that scale is of little concern for folks that enjoy large battles scaled down for practical and enjoyable gameplay while still learning about the history of the battles SOW strives to replicate.

If this doesn't serve as an adequate explanation...Well EXCUSE.....ME!

_____________________________

Designer - Scourge of War

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 55

RE: SCALE - 6/6/2015 1:33:41 AM

BloodyBill76

Posts: 68
Joined: 4/14/2015
Status: offline

I will purchase the game immediately upon release. I am a loyal SOW customer and have the utmost confidence in their ability to produce a wonderful Napoleonic war game. I ask about the uniforms and company formations because I always want the best possible experience with immersion I can get and I have no doubts about Waterloo being top notch.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 56

RE: SCALE - 6/6/2015 2:47:04 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

RedBugler if scale doesn't concern you fine. What concerns me is not the scale of the game as a whole, but relative scale between topo/units/buildings. Any intelligent person would have gathered that from my line of questions. Its a reasonable and simple request that would be of interest for any serious wargamer. I will leave it at that, as your colleague answered the questions adequately. It is a fact there is a bit a fudging going here between the relative scales. Now some people don't mind, many I suspect are oblivious to it and others like myself are concerned with it. So its a matter of whether I can tolerate that or not. I don't know yet. I am waiting to see what happens. Ideally I would prefer all relative scales to be 1:1 for top/units/buildings in a game that relies heavily on a visual 3D experience. That's all. I am not sure why you are so upset about such a preference. But I don't really care.

_____________________________

(in reply to BloodyBill76)

Post #: 57

RE: SCALE - 6/6/2015 1:31:23 PM

RCHarmon

Posts: 322
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline

The last purchase that was disappointing for me was WITW. I knew better because I have and hate WITE, but I gave it a shot. WITW in many ways it is much better than WITE, but the same main problems plague both games except for maybe logistics which is much improved. Brother against Brother was presented very well, but I refrained. I just new that I would not like it. Decisive Campaign: Case Blue has so much potential, but it is too abstract in places and sloppy in its oobs and modding. I think what Michael and others are gun shy about is paying a lot of good money and being disappointed.

Many of us are die hard SOW fans and have been so from 1st Manassas. The game is still not widely known so many of us like to help to get the word out. In the end the game will sell itself and for the reasons that it has such a faithful following. Napoleonics appeals to a wider audience than the American Civil War. I expect the fan base to increase significantly.

To those who only play against human opponents beware. It is a whole new experience. From 4 years of online play I will guarantee that you will be both challenged and disappointed and not because of the game. The biggest problem is just getting along with anywhere from 3 to 10 fellow teammates. "Why is that guy so slow, why will that player not commit his full division." Or you may hear, "why was I not supported". Or you might hear, "shut up and stop telling me what to do." I play in a very competitive group where some guys will not take it being so competitive. Some groups are more cordial and accepting, but the play can become drab. Some groups only communicate through couriers so no talking just messages. They have their personality problems too. So listen up and know what you are getting into. For those who put up with it it is a great experience. Learning other players strengths and weaknesses and still trying to work positively together is a worthy challenge. If you are used to just sitting back and clicking away online play may not be for you. In the end it is a lot more "REAL". Napoleon was never able to just click when and where he wanted he had to work with his very human generals. Some were great some were disappointing.

Reb Bugler is a good guy. His fault is that he goes defensive with the slightest critic made to the game or any mod that he has developed. Do not hold this against him he does great unselfish work. He is not the top guy either so he may not know all of the answers.

So by all means wait and you should. It comes from a great team that does care about details and getting things only released when they work properly no sloppiness with them.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 58

RE: SCALE - 6/6/2015 9:03:17 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

Thanks for that Rich. Appreciate it all.

_____________________________

(in reply to RCHarmon)

Post #: 59

RE: SCALE - 6/7/2015 9:21:53 PM

PaulWRoberts

Posts: 897
Joined: 4/22/2001
Status: offline

Lemme tell you about scale: waiting from now until June 11 is TOO LONG.