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Campaign for South Vietnam

 
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Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/4/2015 5:48:27 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		This will be an AAR of my game with Curt (Raindem) Chambers. I will be playing the Free World Allies (FWA) and Curt will be the National Liberation Front (NLF). We will be testing his 5.0 beta version of the Campaign for South Vietnam. I will occasionally make comments comparing the versions so it will have some value to players using version 4.0 (of the scenario) or those who have not upgraded the game from the original disk or download.

Most important goal for first year: Do no let the NLF reach 10 victory points. That moves up the EEV clock for US withdrawal by one point every two turns. It is the only way the NLF player can directly impact the withdrawal clock. It is imperative that they be held below 10 VP or be pushed back below that level right away.

Short term plans.
Minimize the impact of the war on US public opinion by easing them into this thing. To do this delay crossing the 15 EEV threshold until turn 7-9. I know that waiting until turn seven will avoid the 1 point EEV cost for early commitment. That is a small victory right there. The withdrawal clock won’t start ticking until you reach 15 EEV or the NLF player gets 10 VP. (This is achievable in scenario versions 4.0 and 5.0 beta because of the delayed arrival of NVA regiments compared to the disk version and earlier updates. So all you have to worry about is the building VC strength and three regts of NVA that arrive one a turn. The ultra hard push by the NLF in the first three turns won’t happen in the newer versions.

Regardless of whether you go for a rapid or slow buildup don’t commit units faster than your sealift can ship them or the stacking at the ports will allow them to come on board. Don’t speed up the EEV clock with units you can’t get into Vietnam yet. There are three entry ports for the US forces. The Marines all arrive at the northernmost port so it becomes a real bottle neck if you bring in more than one marine formation at a time. The computer also tends to bring in HQ and support elements first so you lose control of who arrives and when if you bring in units that use the same port. I’ll post more details and a port list for each formation in a later post.
To stay under 15 EEV and hold the NLF in check I will bring on the following 14 EEV points worth of units.

First turn
3rd Marine Division 3 EEV: I mean it is a whole division of Marines. Their job will be to defend I Corps but until more troops can be brought in the 9th Regt will probably have to go to the II Corps.
13th Air Division 5 EEV: I take this instead of the 2nd AF because it has more capable and longer ranged aircraft, its bases receive higher levels of supply and the Thai airbases are immune from attack.
12th AVN 4 EEV: This is a new option. The MACV transport units are no longer free but you can choose when you get them. If they are going to cost me I am going to rush them. It also arrives with about seven companies of airmobile troops (2 squadrons and a troop). At least I get a few troops with this very expensive transport fleet of helicopters units. To get the helicopters into position to provide lift over all of South Vietnam some of these troops will be tied down garrisoning vulnerable heliports.

Second turn:173rd Airborne Bde 1 EEV: Another new option. The independent brigades and Artillery are divided and enter individually. This is a quality unit with a lot of airmobile troops.

Third Turn or later 1EEV: Another independent brigade according to need. Almost certainly it will be the 3/82nd Airborne. I will have limited troops on the map so being airmobile will probably be more important than firepower in my ground units at this stage.

This will give me a very mobile force and a good number of maneuver units but it has less airpower than other potential starts. If I place assets properly (and if Curt lets me) I should have the ability to provide lift almost anywhere needed by turn 3-4. Of course the force will be somewhat brittle in the face of prolonged casualties and could be lacking in the power to accomplish missions on occasion. I hope to offset this by limiting intercept missions and use more combat support missions until the carriers become active on turn six or I decide to raise my commitment level and bring on the 2nd AF or the Marine air units with the MAG.



< Message edited by Narses -- 6/23/2015 10:40:44 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/5/2015 5:27:39 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		February 1965
Image is after NLF turn 2 but before ARVN movement.
Location 1. In Choung Thien province a VC bn moves up the eastern border settling on the highway east of Vi Thanh and blowing the bridge there. This moves it out of reach of ground units from the 21st ARVN to the south but will allow the 9th ARVN to largely surround it if they are active. The unit was not visible in my turn but the replay allowed me to roughly track its course and end location. The replay is your friend use it diligently. As it turns out both the 9th and the 21st activate. The arty from the 21st can get in range to support the action. Its 31st Regt divides and tries to move along the VC back-trail to convert (or more importantly reconvert) hexes in Choung Thien to avoid Curt getting a possible a possible VP for a pacification check in the prov (15% chance in Choung Thien). That was pointless since there is activity in western Choung THien this turn that I can do nothing about. At least the 21st ARVN does check the back-trail for any units that stayed behind or diverted from the rest.
Which brings up an important point. Anytime you pass an enemy controlled hex you should run the courser over it to see if it will indicate an enemy unit. You don’t have to enter a hex to check it. Guerillas do not convert the hexes other than ones they occupy so even isolated enemy controlled hexes could contain units. For ease of play you can skip this if you don’t think there are enemy in the area but the longer the game lasts the more likely the NLF is likely to be anywhere especially if your game allows the provincial VC units free movement. Just remember it is your fault if you miss some and they score VPs or you land an airmobile unit on him.

Location 2. The VC U Minh Bn moves up the western Choung Thien border blowing multiple bridges. I can only lift one company of rangers at this point so I cannot surround this unit or clear its back-trail. I believe I committed the airmobile company to soon and did not use it to flank the U Minh Bn. That would have at least restricted its movement next turn. The NLF’s T2 movement showed the Bn splitting up and moving south. The white arrows show the routes I expected based on the flashes during the replay. Because of distance and a sloppy turn burn from me two of the companies are able escape next turn. One is lightly and the other heavily damaged. They can no longer take cities so I will ignore them unless they start converting hexes or moving north In Kien Giang Province. Basically I am willing to let southern Kien Giang territory already controlled by the VC to remain Indian country. They will get little or no supply there and pose no threat until reinforcements arrive. I'll gladly play whack-a-mole
If they show up again.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/8/2015 7:12:24 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 2
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/5/2015 4:30:42 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses

Excuse the delay it seems I have forgotten how to post screenies on this site. Screen shots only showing up as attachments and I could not open it.


Did you tick the "Embed picture in post" when uploading?

See below:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 6/5/2015 5:31:38 PM >

_____________________________

Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
---
CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 3
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/5/2015 4:53:31 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		I did to click to embed in my first attempts before I got the size right.
Maybe I did not do that after I made the size reductions to the images.

I'll go back and check that.

Thanks.

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 4
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/5/2015 6:21:30 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		I think you should be able to edit your previous post, and to tick the box while in edit mode

_____________________________

Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
---
CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 5
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/7/2015 3:43:34 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses
This will be an AAR of my game with Curt (Raindem) Chambers. I will be playing the Free World Allies (FWA) and Curt will be the National Liberation Front (NLF). We will be testing his 5.0 beta version of the Campaign for South Vietnam. I will occasionally make comments comparing the versions so it will have some value to players using version 4.0 (of the scenario) or those who have not upgraded the game from the original disk or download.

Most important goal for first year: Do no let the NLF reach 10 victory points. That moves up the EEV clock for US withdrawal by one point every two turns. It is the only way the NLF player can directly impact the withdrawal clock. It is imperative that they be held below 10 VP or be pushed back below that level right away.

Short term plans.
Minimize the impact of the war on US public opinion by easing them into this thing. To do this delay crossing the 15 EEV threshold until turn 7-9. I know that waiting until turn seven will avoid the 1 point EEV cost for early commitment. That is a small victory right there. The withdrawal clock won’t start ticking until you reach 15 EEV or the NLF player gets 10 VP. (This is achievable in scenario versions 4.0 and 5.0 beta because of the delayed arrival of NVA regiments compared to the disk version and earlier updates. So all you have to worry about is the building VC strength and three regts of NVA that arrive one a turn. The ultra hard push by the NLF in the first three turns won’t happen in the newer versions.

Regardless of whether you go for a rapid or slow buildup don’t commit units faster than your sealift can ship them or the stacking at the ports will allow them to come on board. Don’t speed up the EEV clock with units you can’t get into Vietnam yet. There are three entry ports for the US forces. The Marines all arrive at the northernmost port so it becomes a real bottle neck if you bring in more than one marine formation at a time. The computer also tends to bring in HQ and support elements first so you lose control of who arrives and when if you bring in units that use the same port. I’ll post more details and a port list for each formation in a later post.
To stay under 15 EEV and hold the NLF in check I will bring on the following 14 EEV points worth of units.

First turn
3rd Marine Division 3 EEV: I mean it is a whole division of Marines. Their job will be to defend I Corps but until more troops can be brought in the 9th Regt will probably have to go to the II Corps.
13th Air Division 5 EEV: I take this instead of the 2nd AF because it has more capable and longer ranged aircraft, its bases receive higher levels of supply and the Thai airbases are immune from attack.
12th AVN 4 EEV: This is a new option. The MACV transport units are no longer free but you can choose when you get them. If they are going to cost me I am going to rush them. It also arrives with about seven companies of airmobile troops (2 squadrons and a troop). At least I get a few troops with this very expensive transport fleet of helicopters units. To get the helicopters into position to provide lift over all of South Vietnam some of these troops will be tied down garrisoning vulnerable heliports.

Second turn:173rd Airborne Bde 1 EEV: Another new option. The independent brigades and Artillery are divided and enter individually. This is a quality unit with a lot of airmobile troops.

Third Turn or later 1EEV: Another independent brigade according to need. Almost certainly it will be the 3/82nd Airborne. I will have limited troops on the map so being airmobile will probably be more important than firepower in my ground units at this stage.

This will give me a very mobile force and a good number of maneuver units but it has less airpower than other potential starts. If I place assets properly (and if Curt lets me) I should have the ability to provide lift almost anywhere needed by turn 3-4. Of course the force will be somewhat brittle in the face of prolonged casualties and could be lacking in the power to accomplish missions on occasion. I hope to offset this by limiting intercept missions and use more until the carriers become active on turn six or I decide to raise my commitment level and bring on the 2nd AF or the Marine air units with the MAG.

Thank you very much for this level of detail in your analysis. I very much appreciate your knowledge and I'll be watching this AAR
with a lot of interest.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 6
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/8/2015 5:54:51 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Thank you very much for this level of detail in your analysis. I very much appreciate your knowledge and I'll be watching this AAR
with a lot of interest.


LOL maybe some experience with the scenario but I'm still new to TOAW 3.4. The level of detail will be high at first of when it seems
like their are some important points to bring up. Once a strategy, tactic or mechanic has been discussed I'll largely drop it. It just
seems to be detailed now while little is going on. I'll try to put a couple of points in each post.

Oh and my second post has been edited to include turn. Images will hopefully improve. Due to a flash drive fail that cost me to rewrite
several turns of text I did not take time to redo images. I saved few if any battle results from the first 11 turns so don't look for those.


< Message edited by Narses -- 6/8/2015 6:58:27 PM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 7
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/8/2015 8:51:29 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		I enjoyed reading the detailed analysis -- and yes, the images are a big help. I hope you do not drop all the detail -- sometimes going back to a decision point or a strategic summary of several turns past, can be very entertaining to read.

I find producing AARs tough -- difficult to write and to pick what to write about; and then the images. Oy vey ! I've learned tips from the pros (Larry, Klink and others) and learned that practice is essential in snapping a pic, and adding highlights. Looking forward to reading more.

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 8
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/8/2015 10:38:35 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		T2 Feb 65
In South Vietnam other than IV Corps (Delta area) the pacification check in Choung Thien failed so Curt gets no VP. My VP total is -5 because of the city falling in the IV Corps. This troubling because if he can take another city and get a couple of pacification checks he can reach the -10 goal and start the EEV clock. This city is a priority goal for anything that can reach in turn three.
The first nine units of each the 3rd Marine and the 12th AVN arrive for deployment. Unlike earlier versions of the scenario units the US commits will arrive the following turn there is no delay. I kind of miss that but it does make it easier to plan. The marines arrive in hex 140, 88 which is where all marines will enter. The 12th AVN arrives at 140,90. All of these units cannot board ships this turn because there is only a 2000 shipping capacity this early in the war. The marine armored battalion costs more than 3000 shipping by its self. Any units remaining move to the port at 140,189 to make room for their remaining units and the 173 Airborne Bde which is activated this turn.

I Corps: The marines board ships and disembark and deploy defensively near Hue, Da Nang and Hoi An.
The 1st and 2nd ARVN both activate in the first turn. The 2nd move into point defense locations in southern I Corps and sends two battalions north to relieve 1st ARVN units around Hue so they can go further north. I am happy to have the 2nd active on T1 because in previous games I have bad luck with this unit being active even though it is rated fair for reliability. With the exception of the units going north I place the 2nd where I am willing to let them stay. The 1st ARVN withdraws to the river at Dong Ha. I’ll comment more on that in another post.






The 2nd ARVN is not the most reliable unit for activation (Fair). Plus multiple VC bns and a regiment tend to show up here in the early turns. So I have thrown a bn into each Da Nang and Hoi An. The HQ is range of both cities and is defended by an additional bn. THis is an acceptable position even if the units get stuck here for a few turns. It is also one of the areas where I will park the ARVN destroyers offshore for for defensive support. I mix that up so Curt won't know unless he attacks (or gets a lucky spotting). Always put the destroyers somewhere vulnerable or close to potential offensive targets. The destroyers may not always be useful but they never will be if you don't pay them some attention (of course I forgot to move mine the first turn). Both cities have significant VP scores and Hoi An is destined to become a major heliport for me. From there I can lift beyond Khe Sanh and project well into the highlands and other II Corps areas.

II Corps: Over the first two turns the 22nd and 23rd ARVN both form perimeter defenses around their home cities. Pleiku and Ban Me Thuot respectively. The 22nd sends a battalion to Kontum and the 23rd sends a battalion to the coastal areas. I typically send 1-3 battalions to the coast. The coastal area there has nothing but Regional Forces and I always seem to start operations on a shoestring early on. Units from the 23rd give extra garrison and a fire brigade. Some premonition has me holding two bn at Ban Me Thuot for now for action south or towards Pleiku. The 23rd is one the best ARVN division. It is the only one besides the 1st to have all three regiments before Vietnamization and it is rated good across the board like the ARVN marines, paras and the 21st ARVN. Those four categories are Reliability (activation rate), loyalty (attrition), Leadership/Command (proficiency). So some of its units will always be looking for a fight somewhere.

III Corps:
In the Tay Ninh area there are the 5th and 25th ARVN Divisions. The 5th is a workhorse ARVN division. It will be active most of the time and its combat proficiencies at 60 make it as good as anything in ARVN except the elite units. It will conduct operations in Tay Ninh until the 271st VC main Force Regt is dispersed or destroyed. Afterwards it will operate in Tay Ninh and Binh Doung Provinces or support offensive operations around Saigon if available. Ultimately it will have to move to the An Loc area in Phouc Long Province to defend the two VP cities there. I expect that to be its operations for the course of the war.
The 25th is another beast entirely. Its combat proficiency is low at 40 (32 when units are divided) and with a fair reliability rating I expect it to be frequently inactive. Its job will be to defend Tay Ninh City and assist with operations in Tay Ninh, northern Hua Nghai and southern Binh Doung. It may send some battalions to defensive positions around Saigon if needed.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/18/2015 9:09:53 PM >

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 9
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/9/2015 2:03:05 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Feb 1965
Northern IV Corps
The red arrow show the movement of a VC Battalion moving south and taking Cam Lanh. At least three VC Bn start in Kien Phong and Kien Toung provinces in the first three turns. They are close enough together so that with free movement they can get multi-battalion attacks against the provincial capitals of Cam Lanh and Moc Hoa. I had started a bn from the 7th ARVN towards each of them. Because I did not move them until after the first combat round of T1 they did not make it. The white arrows in the west are these two units. The one headed to Cam Lanh reaches the surviving Ruff Puffs (regional militia) and the division arty gets close enough to bombard. I believe I fired the arty in the second combat round and caused an early turn end. The white R is the hex a Ranger landed in to flank the VC and limit their movement. There was no ground attack planned against this hex this turn.

In the east of the image a VC bn appears in western Long An. I knew from playing the AI the a VC unit would appear very close to there about now. The blue line represents two ARVN marine bn linking three cities with RF units to limit movement towards Saigon (just to the Northeast). I was surprised the VC split up and then moved adjacent to the marines. He wants to fight. Splitting the unit might make it easier to kill but if any of them survive to retreat they just convert another hex risking a VP anyway. So they need to be surrounded. Splitting them requires more units to surround but staying close together and moving next to the marines makes it easier for me. Everybody activated this turn except the 1st and the 22nd so 2 bn of paras, 3 bn of marines, 2 bn of the 7th, the armor regt, the 12X 8” guns and 2 companies of rangers all move in. The early turn burn mentioned above leaves two companies pushed into a single hex. They are battered and the other company destroyed by bombardment and RBC. They convert a hex and my only consolation is I lost nothing but supply burnt and the survivors should die for free next turn isolated and none of those will reach his replacement pool.

My transport copters here could lift 81 points of weight this turn. By my count I should still have had enough lift to move another 2 companies of rangers. Either that number on the lift unit is not reliable or I mis-clicked somewhere (I don’t thinks so). This left me unable to airmobile move into Moc Hoa. I could airlift but I didn’t want to take a chance of them arriving disabled. Moc Hoa is a 3 VP city and along with Cam Lanh the six point swing it would generate would put the VC over the 10 VP line. I had planned to copter in one company to Moc Hoa and one to Chau Doc province (west of image) to garrison until needed or relieved.
Well at least next turn lots of lift will be available from the 12th AVN units. The turn after that they will be well distributed and then it will be a problem of finding airmobile units not airmobile lift. At least until I have more ground forces on the map.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/12/2015 7:49:34 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 10
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 2:50:48 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		I was waiting to update this until our game moved one year ahead of the AAR. I have been swamped at home and I owe Curt a turn.
In the meantime I will comment a bit about the Monsoon and the US air shock. Since we are approaching the first monsoon it seems appropriate to talk about this now. Most of this information can be found in Curt’s guide under weather or in the VC tactics section.

Unless the US player selects free fire he will be suffering under a 50% air shock penalty. You select free fire by moving the units on the free fire slide located at hexes 58,61 to 58,65. Always move it to one end or the other or it may not work right. It cost the US a victory point every turn it is selected. Never and I do mean NEVER leave free fire selected during the monsoon. You will pay the victory point penalty and get no benefit. The monsoon penalty takes precedence over the free fire buff.

The monsoon itself is handled as you would expect by the weather engine with increased storms and rain. There will a lot of mud. Weather is something I do not pay enough attention to in any TOAW scenario. It is worth remembering however when you select air superiority aircraft that the NFL has no all-weather interceptors.

More important in this scenario is the monsoon effects from April –June. This changes the US air shock penalty to 25%. It also reduces the NLF’s ability to project supply. The NLF still gets supply but only units in or very near supply points will receive any. Now I will not bomb the Hanoi area during these turns but other than that I largely ignore it. Well that is not entirely true. I will conduct the same I missions I usually would but I will remember that it will take more aircraft to achieve the same results. Offensive and defensive ground planning should probably bear that in mind but operations still need to go forward. I try not to allow a drop in tempo.

Curt’s guide mentions that he likes to conduct NLF offensives during good weather (so units do not run out of supply and have better movement). He is talking about large offensives like TET and mini-TET that involve theater events and mobilizing the hidden VC reserves. I know from experience that he will conduct more localized offensives and raids during the monsoon to take advantage of reduced CAS and interdiction. That is just good play. Even the Tet style offensives would do well to start on the last turn of the monsoon so early attacks are faced with reduced airpower and resupply the next turn is normal. The approach would face weaker interdiction but also lower supplies.

If I suspect the NLF may be going to launch attacks during the monsoon I will reduce my interdiction levels. I mean after all his supply situation will be crap anyway and interdiction strikes will be weaker. Redirecting aircraft can help offset the impact of the monsoon on CAS. You have to realize though that the NLF player may be using the monsoon for a period of increased movement while interdiction is inhibited or redirected. A smart NFL player will check the US interdiction level in the air briefing as his first action every turn. A major shift in the CAS/Interdiction ratio should have an impact on where, how and if the NFL moves or attacks.

Like many things in the scenario few choices are 100% correct 100% of the time and head games and feints a big part of things.




Non-monsoon NLF supply early game.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/12/2015 4:28:17 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 11
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 3:00:08 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		And the same area supply situation during the April-June monsoon effects:




On most of the map the NLF will be receiving no supply for these three turns.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/12/2015 4:02:26 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 12
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 3:22:57 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey William: I can't remember right off the top of my head...........are the ARVN Marines airmobile? As I remember it they were stationed near
Saigon and didn't stray very far from there although it's been a long time and I constantly misremember details from then.

Thanks a heap for your level of detail and insight(s). It's a pleasure to read this AAR but there's not nearly enough pictures. LOL.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 13
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 3:37:04 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Yes the ARVN rangers, the marine division and the para division are airmobile. In the next 5 turns of the game those units are the only way I can keep my head above water. Buying the 12th Avn units lets me use them to the fullest starting on turn 4 and really from turn 3 since I used them mostly near where I first placed some 12th Avn units when they first arrived. Without the 12th Avn lift capacity will only grow a little by about 110 pts a turn.

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/15/2015 7:07:17 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 14
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 4:06:36 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Thanks a heap for your level of detail and insight(s). It's a pleasure to read this AAR but there's not nearly enough pictures. LOL.


Thanks Larry I have had feedback from others encouraging me to continue the detail. I just hope it does not put other people off or seem to be insultingly simple in places. I want it to be useful to those new to TOAW or the scenario. There is also a lot of info in the guide. Some won't use it or will just look at the areas most of interest to them.

I will be using screenies but I can't find the paint program I used to use and I can only use PhotoScape to get images about twice the size of the last post to meet the size limits. Hopefully I will find time to figure out the resolution soon so I can get larger images in. Later I will include combat results but I did not capture any in the early turns.


< Message edited by Narses -- 6/12/2015 7:34:19 PM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 15
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 4:18:12 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		And I forgot in my earlier reply to you....The ARVN 91st Abn Ranger Battalion can also use airmobile lift. It will have to abandon its six APCs to do so. For some reason it is not able to attack after a heli-lift in any version of the scenario. It can only be used as a defensive reinforcement or a blocking force after lift (Unique to that one unit). the 91st, the rangers, marines and the paras round out all the airmobile ARVN units.

That is kind of an Easter egg to find out that unit is airmobile. (well it is airborne and ranger that's why you should check it.) But it is a rotten Easter Egg if you find out like I did in the past by expecting it to tip the balance in a fight or to provide the strike for other blocking units. Very funny for the NLF player. 5 blocking companies and the 91st airmobile in and then nothing happens. CSV trivia 101.


EDIT: In case there is any confusion all of the ARVN units mentioned are airmobile in all scenario versions available from the TOAW III disk/download to present.

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/12/2015 7:42:57 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 16
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/12/2015 8:42:53 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey William: I can't remember right off the top of my head...........are the ARVN Marines airmobile? As I remember it they were stationed near
Saigon and didn't stray very far from there although it's been a long time and I constantly misremember details from then.

Thanks a heap for your level of detail and insight(s). It's a pleasure to read this AAR but there's not nearly enough pictures. LOL.


I am trapped now and unable to play tonight so I was looking at your post again.

You said "As I remember it they were stationed near Saigon and didn't stray very far from there although it's been a long time and I constantly misremember details from then."

Do you mean historically or from your gameplay. Historically the Paras and Marines constituted a general reserve and coup protection. First of all the marines and paras were deployed as far away as Quang Tri in the north. That was much later (1972) than where we are in our game. Of course they were full divisions then. At this stage of the game I only have 3 battalions of each. When larger number of these units were available they did get used earlier. The subject of loyalty and coups I will leave until later. As far as using them historically I must point out that Long An is the province adjacent to Saigon.The marines are in the vicinity of Saigon and except for two companies of rgrs all units deployed overland.

More to post but have a company dinner to attend with an open bar. Most likely you guys and Curt will get squat from me tonight





< Message edited by Narses -- 6/18/2015 9:23:41 PM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 17
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/14/2015 1:34:05 AM   
Raindem

 

Posts: 696
Joined: 7/15/2000
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		NLF comments...

I tried to run my standard opening book, which has served me so well in the past, but Bill was not falling for it. I managed to overun only 1 capital in the opening turns. I know from experience that if the NLF wants to run the score down to -10 early on he needs to take down 2 or 3 capitals. He won't be able to achieve that on pacification events alone. So kudos to Bill for stopping the NLF in the criticial early months, without resorting to a morale-damaging fast buildup.

As for the ARVN 91st Abn, I was not aware it was immobile after an airlift. I'll have to check my development notes to see if that was intentional or not.

A side note for Larry. I hopefully have corrected the AA issue for this version. So if you wanted to restart your playtest (using TOAW 3.4x of course) you should get acceptable air results. Or, you can wait until things are ironed out with 3.6. Your choice.

Curt

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(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 18
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/14/2015 3:27:40 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem
A side note for Larry. I hopefully have corrected the AA issue for this version. So if you wanted to restart your playtest (using TOAW 3.4x of course) you should get acceptable air results. Or, you can wait until things are ironed out with 3.6. Your choice.

I'm sorry Curt dude.........I'm scrambling around trying to multi-task about four different games and beta development testing all at
the same time. Please refresh my memory about the AA problem being different between the 3.4x and the 3.6x versions. I think I
remember you saying that the 3.6x version is still "broken". 10-4?

EDIT: I just re-read my playtest AAR again and I've come to the conclusion that there needs to be a 3.6x version for playtesting.
Adjustments needed to be made so that the air losses weren't so horrendous and I botched a fix by moving the attrition divider,
which you said, and I agree, that there are multiple dependencies impinging on the attrition divider and simply moving it isn't the
way to fix the problem. So I went into wait mode until a new test subject emerges from your laborotory.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 6/14/2015 4:40:02 AM >

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(in reply to Raindem)
Post #: 19
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/14/2015 12:59:23 PM   
Raindem

 

Posts: 696
Joined: 7/15/2000
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		The AA lethality option is available in 3.4 also, which is what I used for a temporary fix of the issue. The problem with 3.6 had nothing to do with air combat. It had to do with hex possession. If a guerilla unit right-clicked on an enemy unit, as if to attack it, it would immediately change the defender's hex possession to the attacker's side. This happens before combat is even resolved. As you can imagine that's a deal breaker for a scenario like CSV.

But if you have 4 test games going already that's a lot to take on. I agree that it's probably best to wait.

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Post #: 20
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/14/2015 1:21:54 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem
...The problem with 3.6 had nothing to do with air combat. It had to do with hex possession. If a guerilla unit right-clicked on an enemy unit, as if to attack it, it would immediately change the defender's hex possession to the attacker's side. This happens before combat is even resolved. As you can imagine that's a deal breaker for a scenario like CSV.

Right, right........it's all coming back to me now. And I remember posting something about it on the development forum. Time for me
to do some follow up and so on. Thanks.

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(in reply to Raindem)
Post #: 21
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/14/2015 4:55:01 PM   
Raindem

 

Posts: 696
Joined: 7/15/2000
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Thanks Larry. Appreciate it.

Bill, sorry for the hijack. Back to you.

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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 22
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/16/2015 2:19:57 PM   
sapper32


Posts: 1197
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Warminster England
Status: offline 		Looking forward to following this AAR,Good luck with it Narses its a bit of a monster game too keep your eyes focused on.


(in reply to Raindem)
Post #: 23
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/17/2015 9:20:56 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		DMZ Early Feb 1965
In the early turns near the DMZ I have the 1st ARVN Division fall back behind the river at Dong Ha. This is not as critical in scenario versions 4.0 and 5.0 as it was in older versions. In older versions an NVA division started in attack positions near Con Thien and could hit parts of the ARVN 1st division before they could fortify. More NVA used to follow quickly. ARVN could expect to lose Quang Tri city and more than one regiment of the 1st to an aggressive NVA player who had skill and a little luck.
In versions 4.0 and 5.0 there is just one NVA division to worry about and as I’ve stated before its three infantry regiments come in one at a time on turns 2, 3 and 4. They get substantial replacements but there will be no substantial NVA reinforcing units north of the DMZ for the first year (another NVA division and independent regt arrive for every 15 commitment points the US spends). In spite of this I will still abandon strip from Dong Ha north. I‘m doing this because I do not wish to fight a linear battle in an area where the NVA is about as well supplied as they can be and are so close to sanctuary. I would much rather move the battle south and both shorten my supply lines and lengthen his. It will also force the NVA infantry (and more importantly their arty) to move away from their sanctuaries if they wish to engage. Then they can be cut off when sufficient airmobile troops become available.
This does give the NVA uncontested hexes that they can convert for potential victory points. There is only a 20% chance of this occurring in Quang Tri province however. One reason I will accept less than optimal battles in other areas is so that I can choose my fights in Quang Tri. Here I want decisions to be based more on operational considerations than on potential pacification events. There are also only a limited number of hexes he can convert in this area. Unlike the VC guerillas who can chose to not convert hexes or only convert the hex they are sitting in the NVA regulars change possession of hexes in their zones of control. The NVA will tend to run out of chances to score pacification VPs more quickly. For much of the game on much of the map both sides will be maneuvering or fighting to manipulate the chances for pacification VPs. In Quang Tri I will be happy for the NVA to alter his tactical movements based on pacification because I won’t be. In this province it will always be about minimizing my casualties and maximizing his.





On the second turn the NVA finish off the Regional Forces company I abandoned at Con Thien. I also will not contest Dong Ha. I just hope he will activate the RF unit there so I can save it. I am unwilling to be have my regular ARVN units bombarded or attacked at the river crossing. For now I will wait behind the river and use air and arty to wear down the NVA while he clears Dong Ha. I do not expect him to try to cross the river with just a single NVA division. At least not while I have most of the 1ST ARVN there.
Note the Marine HQ near Hue in the extreme SE corner. The leading elements of the 3rd Marines shipped in immediately even though their supplies and readiness were only 50%. They positioned themselves around Hue, Da Nang and Hoi An in high supply areas.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/17/2015 10:35:48 PM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 24
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/19/2015 12:37:12 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		TURN 3: March 1965
EEV TOTAL: 14 EXPECTED INCREASE: None
VICTORY TOTAL: +1 Free World Allies
PACIFICATION VPs TOTAL: FWA 2/NLF 1 THIS TURN: FWA 1/NLF 1 (first NFL pacification pt in Quang Tri)

At this point in the game the FWA are scoring one automatic VP a turn for its pacification programs. This will gradually increase to three a turn. The exception to this is that the number of automatic points decreases as the US player approaches 60 total VPs. At 60 VPs the US player actually subtracts a commitment point from the EEV clock every three turns.

Well my call to not contest northern Quang Tri yields immediate dividends to Curt. I really can’t complain over the first two turns he should average one VP for the number of areas he has converted a hex and held it through my turn. A half point a turn might not seem like much but remember there can be as many as 132 turns in this game. The VC have just got the marching orders and are just beginning to ramp up. I think seven points from pacification were the most I recall seeing in a turn but 4-5 are not uncommon. A country wide offensive (TET, Easter of the final push) could potentially AVERAGE 12 points a turn for the NLF. Of course the 1-3 points the FWA get for free would be subtracted from that. So the whole game potential for pacification points is huge considering the total of objective points is only 200. The NLF also cannot afford to let the FWAs crank out their automatic points uncontested for long once they reach 3 per turn.

In I Corps an additional regt of the 308th enters Quang Tri and the HQ is also noted doing so in the replay. The 308ths arty bombards the RF company in Dong Ha leaving it gutted but alive. Unfortunately bombardment attacks do not activate the fixed regional militia that will take a ground attack. The company can neither fortify nor withdraw. I’ll bet those remaining two squads wish they could have just stuck to fishing or farming. They might have avoided getting drafted into the ARVN regulars but that hometown/part time soldiering is starting to look mighty dangerous in Quang Tri province. They have done their job though. The NVA unit doing the spotting is located by Dong Ha’s patrols (ZOC) and will pay a much higher price.
The US 3rd Marine divisional artillery move north to Quang Tri City where they can bombard the NVA Regt near Dong Ha from there they can engage the NVA with their longer range guns and be out of range of NVA arty next turn. The 1st ARVN HQ shifts west from Quang Tri City so its longer range guns can engage and where all of its guns can support the western part of the river line. In addition the newly arrived US cruiser taskforce takes up positions off the coast to bombard near Dong Ha. The South Vietnamese destroyers move within range of an NVA regt noted on the bridge near Con Thien. The only problem is that the 308th’s arty has disappeared. They will get a pass this turn. None of these units fire in the 1st combat round and the ARVN 1st and the naval units break-off before the end of the turn. The ARVN do so to dig for protection and to support the river line and the navy to avoid any potential attempt by the NVA to use their arty as coastal defense guns. At least some air units from the 13th Air division hit the NVA with direct attacks from first to last. The 13th has switched its priority from the VC in the south to the visible NVA units. The divisional guns of the 3rd Marines also continue surge operations. I inflict 40-50% on those two regts viewed as a whole but the NVA already have the rifle strength to replace twice that and that’s not considering the squads that will return to the replacement pool because the units were not isolated. 60-100 rifle squads and assorted supporting units for 8 light rifle squads still seems like a win to me. But is it worth the diversion of air from the south?







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< Message edited by Narses -- 6/22/2015 12:35:19 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 25
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/19/2015 1:49:34 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Text removed obsolete once previous post was edited.

< Message edited by Narses -- 6/22/2015 12:40:39 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 26
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/19/2015 2:27:05 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Curt can only fire at the naval units if he can spot them. I will usually end the turn outside the range of any arty thought to be in the area or place myself where the NVA arty will be very vulnerable if they go for a shot. Occasionally however it might be worth a gamble that I won't be spotted or I just decide to except the possible exchange. I just don't want to become completely predictable. I will frequently shift after firing so that if Curt can't see them he will not know if they are in supporting range of my units or far down the coast covering another area. He will seldom know who bombarded or supported my attacks but he will see the ships in the combat results if they provided defensive support for me. I just want him to fear the entire coast if he can't see all my ships. I might defend the same coastal area several turns in a row but more often I will frequently shift to another area just so he does not know. Deception is a more often a tool for the NLF but shifting tactics and priorities is needed for the FWA also. The more he has to consider the more likely he is to miss something. The ships just take a couple of clicks a turn.




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< Message edited by Narses -- 6/19/2015 3:32:17 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 27
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/19/2015 3:49:55 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		T3 Quang Nam March 1965

I expected a VC Bn in either Quang Nam or Quang Nghai and I am still expecting a VC regiment near here in the next couple of turns. The VC bn caught here showed up on the replay and was easily caught by landing on the hex it left. Once it was located the 3rd Marine units that shipped in last turn use airmobile movement to surround it in conjunction with battalions and arty from the 2nd ARVN. The Marines still have not built up their readiness and supply yet but there are no other airmobile units available so the US president authorizes the first offensive use of US ground forces in March 1965 (no game effect just a milestone). Lo and behold the 2nd was active the first two turns. It will actually be active on the 3rd turn also. I have never had the 2nd active on the first three turns for me before. Additional incoming marine units fill the defensive role of the units on this op. Expecting more activity along the coast the marines and 2nd ARVN try to garrison cities with more than one VP along the coast. The 9th Marine Regt ships into II Corps focusing in Binh Dinh province.

In the actual fight the losses are essentially equal in spite of getting a good measure of the remaining air strikes and arty from the 2nd ARVN. Equal is not an exceptable ratio. All hexes are reconverted and a 45% chance of a NLF VP is avoided.





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< Message edited by Narses -- 6/22/2015 12:46:12 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 28
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/19/2015 4:51:13 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Image moved to next page with text. See post # 31.



< Message edited by Narses -- 6/23/2015 9:48:59 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 29
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam - 6/23/2015 1:03:51 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		The level of detail in your reporting is outstanding and I highly
encourage you to continue. The war is more real when you
know the details. Thanks.

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Post #: 30
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