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PHANTOM CARGO - 6/24/2015 6:51:00 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		IT HAPPENED FIRST WITH SOME TANKERS, AND NOW WITH MANY AKs. On the Tf screen it shows no cargo in each ship's hold, but it shows a quantity (12780 in this example) in the TF total load. When I try to load troops or more supplies it wont allow me, nor will it allow unloading. I tried moving to another port, I tried changing into an amphibious Tf. Nothing works and I have about a dozen of useless aks/tks




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< Message edited by duettoalfa -- 6/24/2015 7:53:41 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/24/2015 7:01:49 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Disband it then look at the individual ships. It's nothing, just some hang up. If it doesn't permit disbanding there's something wrong. Repost if that happens.

(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 2
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/24/2015 7:03:58 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Oh, save the turn somewhere first, then go to the Tech Forum.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 3
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/24/2015 8:14:10 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		I can disband it. and when it's disbanded the ship looks empty, like in the tf screen.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 4
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/24/2015 9:24:46 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Form the ships into a new TF and try loading it.

As the Gorn said probably just a hang-up glitch.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 5
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 12:19:56 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Changing mission types on an existing TF or asking a TF to load something which a ship in that /TF cannot load, can lead to this hanging.  Look at this thread to get an idea.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3605391&mpage=1&key=cargo&#3611865

From the screenshot it looks very likely that TF #218 previously hauled fuel and the following may have occurred.
  • it has now been given new orders or
  • the type of mission has been altered or
  • ships have been removed

with the result that "memory" has not been cleared.

Before posting in the Tech sub-forum try this first.

1.  Click the "Cancel Load Supplies" button.
2.  Click the "Unload Troops/Cargo" button.

If not successful then

3.  Go to Base screen and click on create new task force button.  Choose "Transport" type.
4.  Select to transfer a ship from the existing TF218 into the new empty task force.
5.  Click the "Unload Troops/Cargo" button on the newly created transport task force.

If this fails redo steps 3-5 inclusive but this time select "Cargo" as the mission type.  Do not attempt to create an Amphibious or Tanker type task force
using these steps as this will lead you down user induced bug territory.

If you do eventually post this in the Tech sub forum, ensure the following additional information is provided.

1.  What was it's previous cargo load and where did it load/unload the cargo.
2.  In which mission mode was the previous cargo carried.
3.  Were any ships removed from the previous trip undertaken by this same task force and if yes what type of ship was removed.

Alfred

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 12:45:44 AM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		Alfred:
Are you saying that it is possible to assign the wrong class of ship to the wrong type of TF mission ? I thought the game only showed appropriate ship classes available to form TFs when you selected the TF formation button ? Is this something I need to be aware of ?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 7
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 2:13:25 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Form the ships into a new TF and try loading it.

As the Gorn said probably just a hang-up glitch.



I like the sound of that. "The Gorn". I don't capitalize "gorn" unless I'm talking about the planet. I could get used to it though.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 8
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 5:18:53 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Alfred:
Are you saying that it is possible to assign the wrong class of ship to the wrong type of TF mission ? I thought the game only showed appropriate ship classes available to form TFs when you selected the TF formation button ? Is this something I need to be aware of ?


No.

1. There are some task force types which can have "core" and "non core" ship classes in them. Both the "core" and "non core" ship classes are listed in the table found on pages 280-284 of the manual. However, you cannot populate the task force type with "non core" ship classes only. If only "non core" are available in port, that task force type will not be available.

This however is not the point I am trying to get across. It is point 2 which is relevant.

2. A task force may have different ship types in it and the player is allowed to change the task force type whilst keeping the same ship classes in the reclassified task force but now some of the ship types can't undertake the same role. Or alternatively the same task force type is retained but it's purpose is changed.

The link I gave has a post from michaelm on this exact point. The "bug" involved having a transport TF originally hauling supplies and then tasked to carry resources. A transport TF can move supplies on one trip, and resources on another trip. The problem here was that the task force included some tenders. They were OK when they were tasked to carry supplies but they froze the task force when the order was to carry resources as tenders can not carry resources.

The same type of issue was mentioned in passing by michaelm and manifested itself in a different thread (link not given by me) involving a fast transport TF. On that occasion the problem was centred on an AV or AVP.

The current thread might be analogous as it is strongly suggestive that the previous load was fuel. Hence why I asked about details of the previous incarnation of TF218. Also remember that the OP first witnessed this behaviour with tankers (but type of task force not mentioned). It is possible to have tankers in a transport task force.

One possibility, and as usual we are asked to explain/solve a problem with few of the relevant facts being provided, is that TF218 was a transport task force populated with tankers and xAKs ordered to move fuel. Once it arrived at San Francisco, the tankers were removed and the remaining ships were ordered to load supplies, but as I pointed out in my earlier post, there has been a failure with memory being cleared. Or another possibility was that it was a Cargo TF populated with YO and xAK hauling fuel, with the YO being removed and the task force type changed to transport once TF218 reached San Francisco.

I won't go into other possible permutations. But it is enough to demonstrate how impossible it is to answer these sort of queries when really the relevant information is just not provided. Unless it is an experienced player who has mastery of the code (and not just an "experienced" player whose "expertise" is derived from churning out many turns) and therefore can fully account for all the variables in play, less experienced players are far better off putting up screenshots.

Alfred

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 9
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 1:10:04 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		OK, thanks everybody, I'll try all you said (as soon as I can) and let you know the results.

Unfortunately this has been going on for many days now (while I tried to disband, reform, move to another port) and I dont remember what was the previous cargo, nor in what mission the ships were. All I can tell is that the ships were in san diego and that tf 218 is newly formed (in SF) to attempt the cancel load&unload cargo sequence.

< Message edited by duettoalfa -- 6/25/2015 2:19:08 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 8:23:23 PM   
alimentary

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline 		Alfred's excellent and careful advice should allow you do dodge the problem. Note how he has you leave the problematic TF (218) in existence while creating a new TF that will, therefore, have a new TF number and be more likely to have been freshly initialized. One might hypothesize that previous attempts to disband and reform ended up re-using the same TF number and inheriting stale data. [That's not a failure mode I would have expected, but it is one that Alfred's approach evades].

If you have saves (including auto-saves) reaching back before the problem began, it might be possible to reconstruct and even reproduce the sequence of events leading to the behavior.

A reproducible behavior is a godsend for a person who is asked to diagnose a failure.


(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 11
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 8:33:30 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I had forgotten that way of handling it, I have been in situations where that was necessary. Sometimes when you're unable to change the TF type you have to create a new TF and xfr the ships you want as escort or whatever.

(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 12
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 9:45:02 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

If you have saves (including auto-saves) reaching back before the problem began, it might be possible to reconstruct and even reproduce the sequence of events leading to the behavior.


I only managaed to go back 9 days, and the ships were already in SF. But this turn I tried to transfer those AKs in two newly created TFs: half in a transport TF and half in a cargo TF and both were ordered to unload. The Tf screen looks the same. Let's see if tomorrow they've started unloading, or if I still get the message "TF xz awaiting unloading at SF".

< Message edited by duettoalfa -- 6/25/2015 10:45:35 PM >

(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 13
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/25/2015 11:32:52 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The newly created TF can only unload if the screen actually states it is carrying some sort of cargo.  Need to check that in the newly created task forces

(a) the status of the individual ships - are they shown as being empty, and
(b) does the TF screen state it is carrying cargo
(c) what exactly does the unload button says you can unload ie is it supplies, fuel, resources, oil, troops

Alfred

(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 14
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/26/2015 6:15:14 AM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		these are the two new TFs: one transport, one cargo. Individual ships are shown empty though TF screen says it is carrying cargo and that it is unloading it. I'm waiting for the turn from my opponent, but I bet it will say "TF 113 awaiting unloading at SF"




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< Message edited by duettoalfa -- 6/26/2015 7:37:04 AM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 15
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/26/2015 6:16:05 AM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		here's the second TF




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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 16
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/26/2015 12:53:54 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		yes, I confirm, neither Tf is unloading

(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 17
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/27/2015 5:13:29 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		You are the victim of the dread memory conflict. It happens to many people, at different times and in different situations, but mostly where multiple calculations need be done between and among several data sets.

AE is a memory hog. It requires tons of it. If you have other programs open, you will eventually generate a conflict. Page swapping don't hep ya none. All it takes is one slipped bit in a register. AE is an old program. It was not designed to run alongside Tracker, Word, Excel, Explorer, or anything else. It wasn't even designed to run in windowed mode; that had to be shoehorned in. So although it's been made to look and feel like your usual Windows application - it isn't.

With time, I could help you back that out, but your best bet is to go to michaelm and say 'hey'. And after you do that, run AE as a stand-alone, with nothing else on the task bar. That or get another computer with > 6MB memory and even then, be very careful about what else you open in the same session.

Ciao. JWE

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to duettoalfa)
Post #: 18
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 6/27/2015 9:32:51 PM   
duettoalfa

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 8/1/2013
From: Milano, Italy
Status: offline 		all right, we've got the cause. But I hate to disturb people. My hope is that he reads the tech support and decides to look into my problem. meanwhile my AKs will be parked in some base.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 19
RE: PHANTOM CARGO - 7/21/2015 9:45:12 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		I may have a solution.

PHANTOM CARGO

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CVB Langley:

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Post #: 20
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