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Totally OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 2:05:19 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Book contract signed and got a nice advance from the publisher. Yay ! Good for a week in the Keys with the Argentine sweetie.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/16/2015 3:05:41 PM >

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Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Post #: 1
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 2:07:49 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Outstanding! Getting published is a helluva achievement!

I'd ask for an autographed copy, but I fear it will read along the line of random quark physics to my sad old brain.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 3:05:39 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		LOL, Lecivius. But nope, no quantum Fiziks.

It’s a complete set of building draughts for the 1794 French frigate Virginie, designed by Jacques-Noël Sané, constructed from period records in the archives at Le Service Historique de la Défense at Vincennes. Besides the construction plans, it also has a comparison of design and construction techniques with a contemporary 1796 British frigate, for which the construction plans were published a few years ago.

It’s a project I’ve been working on for two years. Another forum member, Francois Charton (fcharton) provided invaluable assistance by his personal interaction with the people at SHD. When you need something from France, there’s simply no substitute for a charming Frenchman.

Seems bizarre, but there’s whole libraries of this stuff for British ships, and the American frigates, but almost nothing on the standard French frigate of the Napoleonic period. Not to mention that I think they were the most graceful and elegant expression of the ship designer’s art that ever sailed. I got Ed Tosti’s book on Naiad, and just had to do the same for Virginie.

Ciao. JWE

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 3
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 3:49:46 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		I for one am interested. Please let me know when it comes out. I can't find much (yet) on this class. I'm curious if this was the first of the French 44 designs that came out in response to the U.S. frigates that were causing such a stir in this time frame. Anywho, off to the internet!

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 5:00:11 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		You won't find it there. Everyone's frigates were rated differently, at the time. USS Chesapeake was "rated" 36; HMS Shannon was "rated" 38; FS Virginie was "rated" 40. They were all within 4 feet of one another in length. They all had an identical main battery of 28 x 18 pounders. They differed somewhat in the number of "long" guns they wre "rated" to carry on the quarter and forecastle decks (thus the "rate"), but their actual armament consisted of damn near an identical number of 24# or 32# carronades and a couple long 8#, 9# or 12# chase guns on the f'castle (42 to 46 actual tubes, total). "Rate" was predicated on long guns. Once ships started replacing long guns with carronades, the whole "rate" thing went to poop.

JWE

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 5:00:37 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Congratulations and good luck with the book.

Ray

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Post #: 6
RE: OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 8:12:08 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Congratulations!

Francois

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Post #: 7
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/16/2015 11:18:45 PM   
Herrbear


Posts: 883
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline 		Congratulations.

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Post #: 8
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 3:19:16 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 5116
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Book contract signed and got a nice advance from the publisher. Yay !


That's awesome, John!!! Super!!!

Just got back a few days ago from P'cola (Flounders, Hemmingway's),
Gulf Shores (Orig Oyster House, Pink Pony and other unmentionables),
Causeway (Orig Oyster House, Blue Gill),
Mobile (Battle House Hotel, quick trip to BB60 machinery deck),
Biloxi (fishing, fishing, fishing),
New Orleans(National WW2 Museum for the 71st anniversary of D-Day - AWESOME!!!!!).

Great trip and awesome museum!!!!

Will be heading down again to Mobile soon. Hope to get to see ya next time!!!


TOMLABEL


< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 6/18/2015 4:21:38 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 8:06:54 AM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline 		Congratulations !

Not exactly Napoleonic period but you may know that the 1778 rebuilt french frigate L'Hermione (La Fayette's ship) is now at Annapolis.

http://www.hermione.com/en/home/

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Post #: 10
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 1:20:10 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland
Congratulations !
Not exactly Napoleonic period but you may know that the 1778 rebuilt french frigate L'Hermione (La Fayette's ship) is now at Annapolis.
http://www.hermione.com/en/home/

Thanks Skyland. Oh yeah, been following her since the keel was laid. Bunch of us boat modellers are going to hook up in Castine for her July visit. Wouldn't miss an opportunity to go aboard for all the world. And Castine is just the perfect place.

Bienvenue encore une fois L'Hermione, vive Lafayette
Ciao. John

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/18/2015 2:26:10 PM >

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 11
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 2:46:55 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Congrats John....I suspect I played "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" as long as anybody..both on the board and the 'puter....

Those were the days when men really had to know what they were doing just to "get around"...and actually seeing the projectile coming to take your life was a combat reality..

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Post #: 12
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 2:47:27 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		Just saw where one of the ship model community went aboard in Yorktown. He said the crew was all French and had very limited English. You couldn't go below, but he's a rigging freak, so that didn't matter too much. He did get to climb halfway up the mizzen shrouds. Guess we're going to have to polish up our schoolboy parlez-vous and start talking about galliards, fourcats, lisse d'hourdi, and maitre couple, and somehow maybe conn our way onto the gundeck or even, gasp, choke, le creux!!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 13
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 5:02:54 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Cool! Congratulations!

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Post #: 14
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/18/2015 5:06:23 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Am I the only one that can just look at that ship and feel...I dunno, is "cool" a good term?

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Post #: 15
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/20/2015 7:01:10 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Book contract signed and got a nice advance from the publisher. Yay ! Good for a week in the Keys with the Argentine sweetie.



That is AWESOME John! Just great!

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Post #: 16
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/21/2015 2:19:10 AM   
DOCUP


Posts: 3073
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		Congrats on the book.

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Post #: 17
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/21/2015 5:29:46 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Am I the only one that can just look at that ship and feel...I dunno, is "cool" a good term?

Yes, 'cool' is a good term. But you look at her and a few other terms tend to insert themselves. Can you say elegance of line? Can you say artistry of construction? These were the most beautiful ships that ever sailed the seas. Thanks for your comments.

[ed] It's ok to get wierd on these wonderful ships. I too get a stiffy when I see her floating.

Ciao. JWE

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/21/2015 7:01:31 PM >

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 18
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/24/2015 4:43:21 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		John, you obviously love sailing ships like I do - so this is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KCHxVq6cGs&list=PL0ok2p11fQTWsPx0rlfgULm99xKUFWCEK&index=9


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Post #: 19
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/24/2015 8:50:23 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B
John, you obviously love sailing ships like I do - so this is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KCHxVq6cGs&list=PL0ok2p11fQTWsPx0rlfgULm99xKUFWCEK&index=9

Thank you very much Brian. Hadn't heard Swansea Town for ages and ages. Says what all sailors know/wish very well. Except her name wasn't Nancy.

Ciao. John

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 20
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/24/2015 10:18:48 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Symon,

Any thought given to the next ship design project?

Even less studied is ship building for the Spanish Armada.  Three periods immediately come to my mind.

1.  Comparison between the English and Spanish fleets of 1588.
2.  The sudden rise out of the phoenix of the Alberoni "green, unseasoned" 1719 fleet.
3.  The impact of the C18th Havana shipyard.

Alfred

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 21
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/25/2015 6:47:36 AM   
comte


Posts: 2358
Joined: 2/4/2009
From: Be'eri, Hadarom, Israel
Status: offline 		John I would like to wish you congratulations on getting your book published!

Regards,

Joe

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But when Territories are acquired in regions where there are differences in language, customs, and laws then great good fortune and much hard work are required to hold them.

-Machiavelli, Il Principe, Book III-

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 22
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/25/2015 8:04:51 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		I thank all of you for your wonderful support.

@Alfred. It's taken me two years to get to this point. It will take about another year to get everything print-ready. Beyond that, all the ship modelers are seriously on my butt about cutting some wood and making a model. A French author and model maker, G Delacroix, is very interested in my work, particularly since he is doing a very similar monograph on a unique French frigate design, L'Égyptienne, from the same time period. He is a Chevalier de L'Ordre du Mérite Maritime, and a friend to, and regular correspondant with, Jean Boudriot. He is up for mentoring the project. Jeez, can you say Woof !!!

Lots of work. Years of work. End point is an admiralty quality POF model of a standard Sané frigate of the Napoleonic period, choosing Cornelie. Something that has never been done before so how could I possibly resist.

The Spanish are going to have to wait their turn. They too had some very nice ships, but not today. Ciao. John

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 23
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/25/2015 11:42:34 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Ah, even more work still to be done than I had anticipated.  I fear we will lose Symon to his new love.  Although whether that be a French or Argentinean one is beyond my Nostradamus capabilities.

Alfred

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 24
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/26/2015 12:11:03 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Great news Sir John!!

May you continue to have fair winds at your back.

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Post #: 25
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/26/2015 8:22:52 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
Lots of work. Years of work. End point is an admiralty quality POF model of a standard Sané frigate of the Napoleonic period, choosing Cornelie. Something that has never been done before so how could I possibly resist.


Hi John,

Why the Cornelie? Isn't she just another Virginie, and a revolutionary era frigate, too?

Why not go for one of the later designs by Sané, either Hortense or Pallas (the one design that actually outlived Sané)? I bet you have the devis d'exécution for the latter ;-).
Anyway, here's a souvenir from the Cornélie. The header reads :

"Devis de la frégate de la République la Cornélie de 40 canons, au retour de la campagne de 2 mois 10 jours qu'elle vient de faire en croisière aux Açores sous le commandement du citoyen Villemadrin, capitaine de vaisseau, commandant la division composée de trois frégates".

This is the first page of a "devis de campagne", the after-action reports ship captains sent back to the admiralty after their first cruise, with a lot of comments on maneuverability, which were supposed to help improve the design. Captain Villemadrin, who wrote this report, was to command the Swiftsure (formerly, and soon to become again, HMS Swiftsure) at Trafalgar.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by fcharton -- 6/26/2015 10:19:42 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/27/2015 4:27:36 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Hi John,

Why the Cornelie? Isn't she just another Virginie, and a revolutionary era frigate, too?

Hi Franciois,

Three reasons I chose Cornélie, or rather why Cornélie chose herself. I did a set of lines draughts for Pallas, from her devis d'exécution and checked against the after-capture British take-off draught of Fidéle (a Pallas). Did another set for Virginie, from her devis d'exécution and checked against her after-capture British take-off draught. The lines are virtually identical except in two areas

First, Cornélie was altered in 1799-1800 at Toulon to address one of these two areas and was trialed again by capitaine de vaisseau Villemadrin. I got the 1800 Plans de cale de la frégate la Cornélie from SHD Rochefort, that show the alterations. In this configuration, she formed the “proof” or prototype for the lines of the Hortense/Pallas class embodied in the 1808 règlement (she also got rid of that horrid poop deck). The remaining differences I can detail in a three page addendum with two extra figures. So one can build either a Cornélie or a Pallas class hull form.

Second, there’s nothing extent on the interior details of a Pallas, and you have to have those for a good monograph. Fidéle was taken on the stocks and finished out as a standard Brit so that won’t work. Virginie, however, had extensive interior layout draughts done in her as-captured condition: pumps, mast steps, bitts, magazine, wheel/tiller/capstain layout, decks and beams, and planking and bears, oh my !! woof !! Cornélie would follow these.

Third, Pallas class was pretty utilitarian; very plain in ornamentation. But Virginies were built before Napo drafted all the woodcarvers to make musket stocks at Lille . I have a beautiful copy of Décoration de poupe, proue et bouteille de la frégate la Cornélie, Signé Collet aîné, sculpteur en chef. 0.93 x 0,69, again from Rochefort.

Ok, I’m a romantic, but I wanted to show one of these beautiful vessels in their full glory. She was a Pallas in all but 6" of length between perps, 1" depth of midship hold, and a 9 pouce 6 ligne offset to the bilge arc centers, but was adorned like a beautiful woman (sorry, ship) ought to be. She was the passing of the torch from les ornements du siècle des lumières to l'âge d'utilité. But my goodness, she was gorgeous.

John

[ed] I think I am beginning to understand Jean Boudriot's reluctance to do Empire period ships. I think he's a romantic, too.

< Message edited by Symon -- 6/27/2015 7:00:22 PM >

_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 27
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/28/2015 12:59:42 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot for the reply. If I understand correctly, you're saying that there's only one Sané frigate class (ok, maybe excluding the Hebé, but then maybe not), and that the rest were minor refinement. As a result, Cornélie is the best example, as it is late enough to include all the important refinement, and early enough to keep something of the Ancien Régime.

Thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense. From the documents I've seen, naval architects did pretty much everything, from ship design, to the selection of wood, and even writing down the logarithm tables needed for various calculations (I've seen a couple of those : pages of handmade tables, with all sort of complicated calculation). Once you had one done, you sure would be reluctant to start a brand new class, with completely different design. (And this might result why a lot of our modern 'advanced' technology is borked : people just spend a lot of time thinking of something new, instead of trying to expand on something that works).

Which begs the question: how does Hébé class stand? Is it the prototype for the Virginie and later classes, and if so, why not go for it?

Francois

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 28
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 6/29/2015 3:33:10 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline 		In a sense, you are quite right; there was “the” Sané frigate. There were technically four classes; Hébé, Virginie, Hortense and Pallas. Sané had a design philosophy, embodied in Hébé and subsequent variations were incremental and evolutionary. One can tell at a glance of a draught if a design was a Sané or a Forfait, for example. From Hébé to Pallas, the principal dimensions changed (grew) 6 inches in length, 2 inches in breadth, and 1 inch in depth. Other changes were lengthening quarterdeck two and a half feet and the forecastle one and a half feet to better accommodate a couple more guns (Virginie), changing the forefoot/bow curvature and section closure/rising for better performance to weather with improved flotation/displacement forward (Cornélie), new bow plus 6 inch stretch along keel flat and 1 inch greater depth of hold (Hortense), all the foregoing plus an increased span of wing transom (l’hourdy) by four inches allowing an increased breadth of two inches (Pallas).

A few other minor variations like arrangement of gunports, arrangement of shrouds, channels and chains, etc.. But basically, once afloat, it would take a very well-trained, knowledgeable eye to differentiate between them.

Jean Boudriot has already done a monograph on Vénus (a Hébé). He chose the Vénus because she was pre-revolution and made a famous voyage of scientific discovery to east Africa and the Indian Ocean. She represented a Sané frigate from the time the French Navy was still in its Ancien Régime glory. He refuses to do Empire stuff because they were so dominated by the British. Yes, indeed, another romantic, and I can’t fault him for it.

Virginie had the same lines and dimensions, but had the quarterdeck and forecastle stretch to allow for a couple more guns. Virginie also had a slightly longer bilge radius and thus 3% greater displacement to accommodate the additional guns. Virginie was basically a Hébé that had gone to the gym.

Cornélie was the only Virginie to get the new bow section of what would become the Hortense/Pallas classes. Hortense/Pallas got the new bow and the final stretches. Cornélie was unique; not quite a Hortense/Pallas, but no longer strictly a Virginie. I wanted the Empire period bow section for the lines, but the early period ornamentation. It’s true, Cornélie picked herself. She put on that white gauze gown and perched on the chaise like Juliette Récamier. “Monsieur, am I not what you wish?”

Woof !! John


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

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Post #: 29
RE: Totally OT: Yay - 7/19/2015 3:01:11 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		John-

My sincere congratulations on publishing your book. Quality requires (read: demands!) serious time and effort, particularly if it is a work of love.

I have just finished O'Brian's "Aubrey and Maturin" series for the second time. While under O'Brian's spell, I bought several companion reference books relating to the series; but have not given the study due to such an intricate subject (ship and armament design of the period).

Please let us know when ready for publishing; I would be delighted not only to support you, but to immerse myself in a subject of great interest that I so know little of.

Sincerely wish you further success-

Mac



< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 7/19/2015 4:01:41 AM >

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