Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

couldn't agree more, but Bill will likely have to lock this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Our friend from Glasglow might wish to equate it with "Scottish Nationalism". Although the Scot's never had the slavery issue , a lot of the people who emigrated to the south came from Scotland. Perhaps if he saw the flag less as a symbol of "Repression" (which many people AFTER the civil war came to see it) and more as a symbol of REBELLION . And please keep in mind that I am an absolute Yankee , born and raised in Maine. In theory , I should be the absolute enemy to those who wave "that flag" , and yet even I can see where both sides are coming from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

Of note-"THIS SICKO" burned the US flag, and while he may have owned the Confederate flag , he WORE a Rhodesian apartheid flag on his jacket. I think he identified more with Afrikaners more than southerners. I haven't meat all that many southerners that would burn the US flag. Even during the Civil war , many comments were made about how well each side treated the others flag. One should not judge a race or a culture by one nut-job.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Our friend from Glasglow might wish to equate it with "Scottish Nationalism". Although the Scot's never had the slavery issue , a lot of the people who emigrated to the south came from Scotland. Perhaps if he saw the flag less as a symbol of "Repression" (which many people AFTER the civil war came to see it) and more as a symbol of REBELLION . And please keep in mind that I am an absolute Yankee , born and raised in Maine. In theory , I should be the absolute enemy to those who wave "that flag" , and yet even I can see where both sides are coming from.

Despite what the Daily Mail may suggest, the nationalists over here don't want to go back to the "good old days" of cross-border raids and such like. At least, if they do, they've kept it quiet. I think, in fairness, that the nationalist comparison doesn't quite work; I think some of the religious conflicts in Scotland would make a more apt comparison.

The rebellion aspect is something I can't grasp either. The whole "fight fovstates rights" issue seems to me a red herring that distracts from the fact that the Southern states rebelled to ensure that slavery was preserved.

I find the logic flawed in that people would be as proud of a flag that was used by an army formed to defend the institution of slavery. It seems to me, an outsider, that the flag's negative connotations would by far outweigh the positive ones.

Now, I can understand the "southern pride" mindset within it's historical context. But today it seems exceptionally out of place, considering that the world has(at least mostly) condemned slavery as a bad thing. The whole "Lost Cause" historiography is something I don't comprehend either.

Now, I'm more than happy to put my hands up and say that I'm an outsider without the cultural background to understand the issue; there tends to be a reason these things aren't fully resolved today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

Ok this is just a little too farfetched an analogy, don´t you agree?

Thats like saying to display the Union Jack defaults to support of the Boston Massacre of 17something.

One displays a symbol of national pride and support for an existing country, the other displays an item that became a well known symbol for slavery.

While I do believe it is something our American friends should sort out by themselves, your comparision lacks a bit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

Ok this is just a little too farfetched an analogy, don´t you agree?

Thats like saying to display the Union Jack defaults to support of the Boston Massacre of 17something.

One displays a symbol of national pride and support for an existing country, the other displays an item that became a well known symbol for slavery.

While I do believe it is something our American friends should sort out by themselves, your comparision lacks a bit.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

Ok this is just a little too farfetched an analogy, don´t you agree?

Thats like saying to display the Union Jack defaults to support of the Boston Massacre of 17something.

One displays a symbol of national pride and support for an existing country, the other displays an item that became a well known symbol for slavery.

While I do believe it is something our American friends should sort out by themselves, your comparision lacks a bit.

Won't happen. In all my time in the UK , never once did I meet a Brit who sometime during the evening did not say "the trouble with you yanks is".... You see , since we are England's "bastard children" they feel an obligation to "set us right" and "show us where we went wrong" after leaving their "supervision".

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Our friend from Glasglow might wish to equate it with "Scottish Nationalism". Although the Scot's never had the slavery issue , a lot of the people who emigrated to the south came from Scotland. Perhaps if he saw the flag less as a symbol of "Repression" (which many people AFTER the civil war came to see it) and more as a symbol of REBELLION . And please keep in mind that I am an absolute Yankee , born and raised in Maine. In theory , I should be the absolute enemy to those who wave "that flag" , and yet even I can see where both sides are coming from.

Despite what the Daily Mail may suggest, the nationalists over here don't want to go back to the "good old days" of cross-border raids and such like. At least, if they do, they've kept it quiet. I think, in fairness, that the nationalist comparison doesn't quite work; I think some of the religious conflicts in Scotland would make a more apt comparison.

The rebellion aspect is something I can't grasp either. The whole "fight fovstates rights" issue seems to me a red herring that distracts from the fact that the Southern states rebelled to ensure that slavery was preserved.

I find the logic flawed in that people would be as proud of a flag that was used by an army formed to defend the institution of slavery. It seems to me, an outsider, that the flag's negative connotations would by far outweigh the positive ones.

Now, I can understand the "southern pride" mindset within it's historical context. But today it seems exceptionally out of place, considering that the world has(at least mostly) condemned slavery as a bad thing. The whole "Lost Cause" historiography is something I don't comprehend either.

Now, I'm more than happy to put my hands up and say that I'm an outsider without the cultural background to understand the issue; there tends to be a reason these things aren't fully resolved today.

I'm impressed! That's a very adult point of view that I never expected. Admitting that you are ignorant of a matter. Well done sir!

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Our friend from Glasglow might wish to equate it with "Scottish Nationalism". Although the Scot's never had the slavery issue , a lot of the people who emigrated to the south came from Scotland. Perhaps if he saw the flag less as a symbol of "Repression" (which many people AFTER the civil war came to see it) and more as a symbol of REBELLION . And please keep in mind that I am an absolute Yankee , born and raised in Maine. In theory , I should be the absolute enemy to those who wave "that flag" , and yet even I can see where both sides are coming from.

Despite what the Daily Mail may suggest, the nationalists over here don't want to go back to the "good old days" of cross-border raids and such like. At least, if they do, they've kept it quiet. I think, in fairness, that the nationalist comparison doesn't quite work; I think some of the religious conflicts in Scotland would make a more apt comparison.

The rebellion aspect is something I can't grasp either. The whole "fight fovstates rights" issue seems to me a red herring that distracts from the fact that the Southern states rebelled to ensure that slavery was preserved.

I find the logic flawed in that people would be as proud of a flag that was used by an army formed to defend the institution of slavery. It seems to me, an outsider, that the flag's negative connotations would by far outweigh the positive ones.

Now, I can understand the "southern pride" mindset within it's historical context. But today it seems exceptionally out of place, considering that the world has(at least mostly) condemned slavery as a bad thing. The whole "Lost Cause" historiography is something I don't comprehend either.

Now, I'm more than happy to put my hands up and say that I'm an outsider without the cultural background to understand the issue; there tends to be a reason these things aren't fully resolved today.

I'm impressed! That's a very adult point of view that I never expected. Admitting that you are ignorant of a matter. Well done sir!

Well, the nuances of the religious divide in Glasgow is something I've seen first hand, and even I can't fully understand or explain it. It would be crass of me to say otherwise for the same complex issues in other countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

The Confederate flag (at least the common battle flag) was flown by the army that actively fought to keep people enslaved. The Belgian flag at least had a bit of history before it's association with the Congo that wasn't overwhelmingly negative.

The context of the flag being flown is a factor. If you're flying the Belgian flag in Brussles, it's not an issue. Flying the flag from a government building in the DRC? Well, how could that be interpreted?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Our friend from Glasglow might wish to equate it with "Scottish Nationalism". Although the Scot's never had the slavery issue , a lot of the people who emigrated to the south came from Scotland. Perhaps if he saw the flag less as a symbol of "Repression" (which many people AFTER the civil war came to see it) and more as a symbol of REBELLION . And please keep in mind that I am an absolute Yankee , born and raised in Maine. In theory , I should be the absolute enemy to those who wave "that flag" , and yet even I can see where both sides are coming from.

Despite what the Daily Mail may suggest, the nationalists over here don't want to go back to the "good old days" of cross-border raids and such like. At least, if they do, they've kept it quiet. I think, in fairness, that the nationalist comparison doesn't quite work; I think some of the religious conflicts in Scotland would make a more apt comparison.

The rebellion aspect is something I can't grasp either. The whole "fight fovstates rights" issue seems to me a red herring that distracts from the fact that the Southern states rebelled to ensure that slavery was preserved.

I find the logic flawed in that people would be as proud of a flag that was used by an army formed to defend the institution of slavery. It seems to me, an outsider, that the flag's negative connotations would by far outweigh the positive ones.

Now, I can understand the "southern pride" mindset within it's historical context. But today it seems exceptionally out of place, considering that the world has(at least mostly) condemned slavery as a bad thing. The whole "Lost Cause" historiography is something I don't comprehend either.

Now, I'm more than happy to put my hands up and say that I'm an outsider without the cultural background to understand the issue; there tends to be a reason these things aren't fully resolved today.

I'm impressed! That's a very adult point of view that I never expected. Admitting that you are ignorant of a matter. Well done sir!

Well, the nuances of the religious divide in Glasgow is something I've seen first hand, and even I can't fully understand or explain it. It would be crass of me to say otherwise for the same complex issues in other countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As a non-American, I can't really understand the whole "Southern Pride" mentality. I understand it on the conceptual level of remembering your cultural roots and local history, but the fact that so much of it essentially boils down to the glorification of the armed attempt to preserve slavery is what makes it incomprehensible to me.

warspite1

Hey mind_messing guess what? I disagree

If you follow the logic then we must remove from wargames:

The Union Jack
The Tricolour
The Belgian Flag
The Dutch Flag
The Spanish Flag
The Portuguese Flag

and these are just some of the offenders.... Where does it end? Who decides what is unacceptable? The Swastika is banned - so why not the Hammer and Sickle?? How many died in the Gulags? The Kulaks? and countless minorities? But using the Hammer and Sickle in wargames? No problem....

As a non-American I assume that the majority of Americans who sport this flag do so - as you say - as they are proud of their heritage. That does not make them all Neo-Nazis, and the fact that one sicko did what he did - and happened to own a Confederate Flag - does not change that fact.

Really interested to hear about this from a US - north and south - perspective.

I don't want to resort to semantics, but I think there's a difference in displaying a flag in a wargame and having it flying from public buildings. One is artistic expression, the other is the state expressing symbolic support for what a flag represents. To me (an non-American), that would be expressing symbolic support for the Confederacy, and therefore for slavery. That's fine in 1861, but I'd have hoped the mindset would have changed since then.

What would the reaction in Poland or Estonia be if you flew the Hammer and Sickle from a public building?

warspite1

I was specifically thinking of wargames, but as for the wider issue and by the same token one could argue that by flying a Belgian Flag one is automatically supporting what happened in the Belgian Congo - and that would be ridiculous...

The Confederate flag (at least the common battle flag) was flown by the army that actively fought to keep people enslaved. The Belgian flag at least had a bit of history before it's association with the Congo that wasn't overwhelmingly negative.

The context of the flag being flown is a factor. If you're flying the Belgian flag in Brussles, it's not an issue. Flying the flag from a government building in the DRC? Well, how could that be interpreted?

warspite1

Did the South have no history that wasn't negative? Did the Southern States produce nothing of any value to the world? Was their only contribution slavery?

That is a question not a statement.

EDIT: Spelling

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Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

To my mind, yes.

I don't see how anyone of a reasonable frame of mind could sport a Confederate flag, tacitly expressing support of a historical armed rebellion to keep people enslaved.

Is it only racists that support the flag? Probably not. I just don't see how anyone who knows enough of the history of it could say that it's something they'd willingly express support for.

The argument of displaying the flag as a sop "history" or "heritage" rings a bit false to me - surely there must be a better symbol representing the heritage of the Southern states that's not loaded with negitive associations?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Should any Southerner be thought of as a racist **** because he/she sports a Confederate Flag? Do only racists identify with that flag?

To my mind, yes.

I don't see how anyone of a reasonable frame of mind could sport a Confederate flag, tacitly expressing support of a historical armed rebellion to keep people enslaved.

Is it only racists that support the flag? Probably not. I just don't see how anyone who knows enough of the history of it could say that it's something they'd willingly express support for.

The argument of displaying the flag as a sop "history" or "heritage" rings a bit false to me - surely there must be a better symbol representing the heritage of the Southern states that's not loaded with negitive associations?

warspite1

Well I have no further input on this but would love to hear further what Americans think. One of your States has the flag on it I believe. Bumber stickers are common etc etc. What do Americans (north) think when they see this symbol? What do Americans (south) feel this flag represents and why identify with it?

Thanks in advance