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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

 
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 9:50:44 AM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		Pelton, the raid option is real unhistorical, because there is no option to threat the german advacing forces. That is why the +1 option was a good idea. Howerver, the soviet side looses in WITE is real low, far from the 1:3 or 1:4 loose ratio what was the cost of those attack during WW2.
Right now, both sides have relative small looses, because there is no option for the soviet to stand and fight. The factory evacuation cost low number of transport point, and the german raid is to fast. Air supply, and HQBU really favor the german, and the soviet can't defend.

I belive on my next game (after 1.08.05. finally will arrive), I will try with 50 % transport limitation and 50 % fort build settings, because it's more realistic, then attach 3 construct to HQ and dig in. That makes WW1 style for both sides, with the current 100 % rules.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 61
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 10:51:11 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.

Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.



and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.





This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.




Guess he never heard of the battle for Smolensk.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 62
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 6:06:44 PM   
RedBunny

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 12/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.

Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.


and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.


This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.




Yeah, Pelton's gotta pull is head out of his "Paul Carell".





< Message edited by RedBunny -- 6/8/2015 7:07:48 PM >

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 63
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 7:16:55 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline 		There were Soviets attacks in 1941 that bore fruit (as at Smolensk.. by the way, unlike WITE the Germans experienced high casualties reducing the Smolensk pocket) but the vast majority of Soviet soldiers were poorly trained. Granted they were tenacious in defense (assuming they were in a deep foxhole. adequately armed, and "encouraged" by communist political commissars who were often the real small unit commanders) but in attack they were like herds of cattle.

Pelton is accurate in his view of Soviet combat initiative, IMO.

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to RedBunny)
Post #: 64
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 8:31:07 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Attack Doctrine doesn't work because the Russian isn't committed to use it. They run all summer and then "discover" their doctrine come winter. BS. Use it in summer, or lose it.

Clichés about Russian combat abilities aside, either combat losses are too low all round or players are using hindsight to lessen the quantity of combat and thereby accumulate massively ahistorical armies. In my view, that's the issue to determine, whether players are fighting too little to arrive at ahistorical force levels or whether casualties across the board- not just urban fighting- are too low. I suspect the latter.

Perhaps a greater number of unit, hex or combat stances should be available in WitE 2, determining the command's desire for combat tenacity in attack and defence. More tenacity, assuming morale doesn't break, more casualties and higher break-off threshold.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 6/8/2015 9:32:05 PM >

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(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 65
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 8:38:43 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

There were a number of successful counterattacks prior to October, actually. Army and even Front sized counterattacks. Most notably by Timoshenko against AGC when the latter stalled during mid summer, and also Vatutin's counterattack near Novgorod, which bought Leningrad several weeks.


But as we all know not across the hole front starting turn 4 to turn 8 5-15 per turn what 100+

Then during blizzard 30+ per turn.

As we know before 1.07 people copy cat tactics simply trashed the game.

Germany not able to get past land bridge or get close to Stalino and Russia on the offensive July 42, simply unhistorical and it completely killed the large following WitE had.

The current ruleset has the front basicly ending at historical lines other then Leningrad falling which it should have anyways.

PLUS

.05 will limit HQBU and supplies to 20 and not 25.

Fuel drops have been completely nerfed.

1v1=2v1 simply is not historical and was a game killer.



_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 66
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/8/2015 8:51:30 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedBunny

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.

Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.


and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.


This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.




Yeah, Pelton's gotta pull is head out of his "Paul Carell".






1. I am not Hitler
2. Your not Stalin
3. WitE is a game and not a movie or a book.

1v1=2v1 is just simply clearly to easy to exploit as I showed in a test game with sapper, he won 98% of the time 15-20 times per turn.

Hoooper does the same thing and we are talking summer 41 vs 2 or 3 infantry in woods, not panzers in the open. Infantry behind rivers ect ect.

You guys are cherry picking the less then a hand full of "attacks" most ended as disasters starting with directive No. 3 on the authority of Chief of General Staff Georgy Zhukov.

Epic cluster **** which was the normal Russian counter attack not winning 98% of the time as 1v1=2v1 does if you know how to rig the system as Flaviusx knows how its done.

As we have talked in length about its abuse by players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brody_(1941)

And Redbunny I look at all the historical data unlike most people.

I have pushed for nerfing allot of things on German side to even the playing field.

The coin has two sides not one, flip it over.




< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/8/2015 9:53:45 PM >

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Post #: 67
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/14/2015 3:56:55 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		4-10 December 1941 (25th week of the war)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwC4Bb-mSzQ

Our counteroffensive across the entire front is underway. Temperatures as expected have plummeted in some places to 50 degrees below freezing amid heavy snowfall. The Germans are pulling back everywhere at a rate of approximately 5 kilometers a day. Kalinin has been taken by Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army. Vyshny Volocheck is taken by 27th Army. The 20th Mountain Cavalry Division in the south is outside Voroshilovgrad which has been abandoned by the German occupiers.

I had numerous briefings from the various directorates within the Red Army as it related to our force status.

Armored Directorate reported 98 tank units of 7 tank divisions (1379 AFVs) and 91 tank brigades (4422 AFVs) active.

Infantry Directorate reported the following units in the Red Army:
315 Rifle Divisions
103 Rifle Brigades
11 Mountain Divisions
A total of 377 Rifle Division Equivalents

Cavalry consists of 17 corps, 10 divisions, and 5 mountain cavalry divisions

Artillery Directorate reports forming first 3 Katyusha regiments in Moscow Military District.

10 vehicle factories moved from Moscow to Ufa.
1 U2VS aircraft factories from Moscow to reduce production to a total of 4.
190 sapper regiments have been raised to date.
Yak-7a production begun in Moscow and Novosibirsk @ 18 aircraft per week.

Spoke with Vatutin by phone to inquire how things were in his 8th Army. He reports all going well. I also asked if he had any more success stories to share. Nothing new with Colonel Yukevich and the 291st Rifle Division. The 268th Rifle Division had a new commander as Colonel Chernyakhovsky had been transferred the previous week at Vatutin's request to a new division, the 44th Rifle, forming in the Southern Urals. It was thought Chernyakhovsky's success in fighting with unseasoned troops such as had been the case in the 268th Rifle Division might be duplicated elsewhere.

Received wireless updates from the four cavalry armies the field; Bobkin's 1st Shock, Rokossovsky's 33rd, Vasilevsky's 34th and Bagramyan's 50th. All are ready to drive hard against the Fascists. Each corps within the armies is being assigned two sapper regiments.

To the Valdai Hills


Moscow


Tula


Stalino-Rostov


OOB


Ground losses


Production figures

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 68
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/14/2015 4:10:41 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		11-17 December 1941 (26th week of the war)

Torzhok fell to Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army

The Germans continue to give ground at the same rate as the previous week.
A Strategic decision is reached to force the Germans to fight in the north based on a 10-week offensive gaining 30-35 kilometers per week.

Aircraft production was shipped from Moscow to Serov.

Northwest Front


Western Front


Tula-Orel


Advance towards Stalino


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 69
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/14/2015 4:12:27 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Dave has at min a draw and vs me he knows why he has to TKO you in 42 or its a draw long run.

Great AAR by the way, much improved.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/14/2015 5:13:19 AM >

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 70
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/15/2015 4:29:46 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		18-24 December 1941 (27th week of the war)

Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts in their march to the west are pressuring the Finns. Lead elements are 20 miles from the Volkhov.

Efremov’s 21st Army of Bryansk Front retakes Tula.

Caucasus Front under Marshal Shaposhnikov is gradually building up strength east of Stalino.

T-60 factories moved from Moscow to Chelnyabinsk. Arms factories are also evacuated from the city.

Northern area


Rzhev area


Tula retaken


Kursk Belgorod


Stalino

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 71
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/15/2015 6:22:49 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		how are you doing for flipping units to Gds? Doesn't look like you have any yet from the screenshots?

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 72
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/15/2015 5:51:25 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Painfully slow progress. A number of leading candidates were lost while protecting industry evacuations. Dave does not leave many units in exposed positions to be attacked in large numbers, so it is harder generating unit wins.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 73
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/15/2015 7:22:15 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		He is all in on morale is King of The Battle Field strategy then,

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 74
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/15/2015 7:39:42 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Yes, he is following your playbook in that regard.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 75
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/16/2015 12:28:24 PM   
verdugo94

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 4/23/2015
Status: offline 		Hello, could you please tell me which map mod are you using? :)

Thanks

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 76
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/17/2015 10:40:24 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Map mod http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2643336&mpage=8

(in reply to verdugo94)
Post #: 77
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/18/2015 12:49:02 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		25-31 December 1941 (28th week of the war)

The Germans continue their orderly withdrawal.

Our ground forces now stand at 6.23 million men against 3.55 million German. Artillery tubes 62,100 to their 35,800. Tanks 8,400 to their 4,900. Aircraft 8,300 against their 3,500. We are assured by the Industrial Council that arms productivity will be increasing soon, allowing us to continue to add to our equipment numbers.











(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 78
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/19/2015 6:02:30 PM   
verdugo94

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 4/23/2015
Status: offline 		thanks mate!

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 79
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/20/2015 2:15:22 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		1-7 January 1942 (29th week of the war)

Two cities have been liberated this week. Kaluga is captured by units of Kurochkin’s 43rd Army, Bryansk Front while Kursk is captured by units of Kostenko’s 26th Army, Southwestern Front.

Operations now focusing on enveloping Orel. Pliev’s 60th Army supported by Rokossovsky’s 33rd are 40 miles north of the city. Bobkin’s 1st Shock supported by tanks of Lelyushenko’s 2nd Shock are south of Orel. Grechko’s 37th Army of Bryansk Front advances to the east of Orel.

Konev’s 24th Army is outside Rzhev.

In the south, Lukin’s 16th Army of Southern Front is 20 miles from Belgorod while Pavel Batov’s 51st Army is 20 miles from Stalino.

Alexandr Vasilevsky is promoted to General-Leytenant. I sent him my heartfelt congratulations.

53rd Army is organized at Moscow, consisting of 7 rifle divisions and 4 rifle brigades. General Leytenant Vasily Chuikov, recently returned from the Far East assumes command. Army of 30,000 men and 800 guns begins to refit.

Chief of Artillery General Voronov issues orders forming the first nine light howitzer brigades at Ivanovo. 59th Army/1st Artillery Army raised under General Maior Kurasov.
Eight tank brigades are disbanded. Red Army tank formations include 7 divisions and 89 brigades.

The Long Range Air Command is reduced to 76 regiments. 27 Pe-2, 25 SB-2 and 12 IL-4 formations are disbanded.

One of the Pe-2 production lines is moved from Kazan to Serov. (1 factory/99% damage. Second line 8 factories/84% damage. This effectively shuts down production of this aircraft). All U2VS production shipped to Verh. Ufaley (4 factories/83-86% damage.)[/I]





(in reply to verdugo94)
Post #: 80
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/20/2015 2:22:06 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		North


Rzhev-Kaluga


Orel


Stalino

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 81
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/20/2015 7:49:36 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		looks like Dave is being very annoying , giving just enough ground to stop you putting in much pressure but only slowly falling back?

in your industrial report, why are you spending admin pts on disbands of the LB regiments? I can understand moving the factories etc, but if the unit sits in the reserve it takes no supply/fuel (or am I wrong about that?) and unlike in WiTW its not as if the pilots are then available for other units (or is that another misunderstanding?)

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 82
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/20/2015 10:40:12 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Yes, it is annoying and further reduces wins needed for guards units.

It doesn't cost APs to disband air units, only to buy them. Eventually my active bomber force will be 95-100% tactical air.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 83
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/20/2015 3:31:40 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		8-14 January 1942 (30th week of the war)

Orel falls to Grechko’s 37th Army. Attacks are successful against individual Finnish divisions, but across the Western and Northwest Fronts things have stalemated through a series of unsuccessful attacks. Comrade Stalin expressed his great displeasure at this latest turn of events and instructed Army Commissar of the 1st Rank Lev Mekhlis to go to the Northwest Front and determine where failure lays. This cannot be a good sign of things to come. I am to consult with General Armii Meretskov on progress of the Western Front and determine what steps need to be taken to push forward again.

The Industrial Council reported that the last of the Moscow factories has departed for the Urals.






< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 7/4/2015 7:49:23 PM >

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 84
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/23/2015 10:02:41 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		15-21 January 1942 (31st week of the war)

Attacks continue with some local success but more setbacks. The low level of enemy casualties in the summer and fall period combined with returning reinforcements in this winter period has allowed them to now hold positions across much of the front. Nightly briefings are becoming more tense as Comrade Stalin continues to vent his frustrations at the lack of progress in the area of the Western Front.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 85
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/25/2015 4:45:23 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		22-29 January 1942 (32nd week of the war)

The Germans are continuing to recover from their earlier winter losses and now counterattacking in a number of places. Our troops achieve some local victories but nothing decisive that will permit a breakthrough.

Our southern forces are 50 kilometers from Kharkov.

We continue to control half of the Crimea.

The Volga Military District reports 25 tank brigades in training.


Karelia


Kalinin Front


Western Front


Kharkov


Crimea


losses


production

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 86
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/28/2015 1:14:56 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		30 January- 4 February 1942 (33rd week of the war)

We continue to have local success in the far north against the Finns and in the south near Stalino. In the area between Bryansk and Kharkov, the enemy falls back where they can afford to give ground. It is clear they will retain control of both cities. Meanwhile we are holding a line 100 miles west of Moscow but face a strongly entrenched enemy that cannot be dislodged.

Army Commissar Mekhlis reported to the State Committee for Defense that the commanders of the Northwest Front show a lack of what he calls " a willingness to expend mens lives for the accomplishment of the missions at hand." Marshal Budyonny as Front Commander in response has scoffed at this claim, countering that the STAVKA has failed to provide adequate forces to support him. Total nonsense.









< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 7/4/2015 7:48:17 PM >

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 87
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/28/2015 7:39:17 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		ah, Mekhlis really was such a nice man wasn't he .. and so competent

_____________________________


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 88
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 6/28/2015 8:21:00 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		5-11 February 1942 (34th week of the war)

Much the same level of activity, but the number of German counterattacks is increasing. Their troops are no doubt recovering from the initial injuries caused by the severe weather.

One spot of good news is that forces from Koroteev’s 23rd Army and Sokolovsky’s 28th Army of Leningrad Front have pushed the Finns back and are on the western bank of the Volkhov.

The first group of three combined air division bases (SAD) is disbanded.

Our Rear Area Services reported this week that 322,376 vehicles support the logistics of our army. Of these, over 76,000 are currently under repair. The truck fleet is some 30,000 less since the start of severe winter operations mainly due to losses while performing resupply missions.

The Industrial Council reported that the last of the factories of Stalingrad have been evacuated to the Urals.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 89
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux - 7/1/2015 1:51:24 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		12-18 February 1942 (35th week of the war)

Kalinin and Northwest Fronts are attempting to isolate Rzhev, but the enemy appears capable of holding the city for several more weeks. Meanwhile our window of opportunity for any offensive action is closing rapidly with improving weather conditions.

In recognition of his capture of Tula, Mikhail Efremov, 21st Army commander, has been promoted to General-Polkovnik.

Localized attacks are taking place on both sides, but the Germans seem to be getting the better of us. Comrade Stalin insists that more decisive action in the area of Kharkov could have resulted in the liberation of the city. Many of us have difficulty arriving at that conclusion given the substantial numbers of Germans returning to their active roster.

62nd Army forming outside Moscow under Gen-Maior Beloborodov consisting of 8 rifle divisions and 1 rifle brigade.


Rzhev



(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 90
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