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Dutch aircraft and ships question - 6/30/2015 1:44:53 PM   
bighinvegas


Posts: 58
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Is there any logical reason that the Dutch aircraft all stop production by April 1942? If the Dutch are holding out or temporarily being bypassed by Japan wouldn't the Allies keep sending them aircraft?
If any of the Dutch cruisers survive and join the Allied navies why can't they be upgraded? Historically they were sunk but if they had survived at some point in time they would have been upgraded with radar and more AA. Same for the British Hermes carrier.
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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 6/30/2015 2:28:48 PM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bighinvegas

Is there any logical reason that the Dutch aircraft all stop production by April 1942? If the Dutch are holding out or temporarily being bypassed by Japan wouldn't the Allies keep sending them aircraft?
If any of the Dutch cruisers survive and join the Allied navies why can't they be upgraded? Historically they were sunk but if they had survived at some point in time they would have been upgraded with radar and more AA. Same for the British Hermes carrier.


That was a game decision (among many others). To me it makes no real good sense, since the war never goes historically once you start playing (it's like the changing the past paradox in time travel).

In my mods I have accounted for these possibilities. Your only option is the Editor.


B

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 1:24:57 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		Someone can always create a mod with Dutch cruiser upgrades and Dutch aircraft production past April 42, though having aircraft production past that date could lead to gamey shenanigans by the Allied player.

Bill

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 1:45:37 AM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

...though having aircraft production past that date could lead to gamey shenanigans by the Allied player.

Bill


5,000 B339 replacements a month... :)

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 1:54:29 AM   
Big B

 

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Status: offline 		The question is not spurious.

The fact that game units historically destroyed early have no possibility to upgrade (Hermes for example), and in the case of Dutch units or British Empire units in Malaya for example - Must withdraw permanently by mid 42...regardless of how YOUR war is going - makes as much sense as having the KB permanently be withdrawn by July 42...because They were destroyed by that date.

That may be what actually happened...but is ridiculous for an open-ended game like this.

< Message edited by Big B -- 7/1/2015 2:56:22 AM >

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:16:17 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		The list is endless about this topic.

'If Japan invades northern OZ ... the East coast of Oz ... etc.'
'If Japan invades India/Ceylon/etc.'
'If Japan invades Soma/NZ/Norma/etc.'

Should not the Allies provide more troops to Oz/India/Pearl/etc.?

If Allied losses are horrible why does not production ramp up for X type of plane/ship/troops/etc. a lot sooner?

You have to accept that the GAME is the way it is or you will keep finding things like this and go nuts. If it really bothers you, you can do what others have done and use the editor to make the game the way you want. Unfortunately you can only modify the game under play when playing against the AI.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:24:29 AM   
Big B

 

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Status: offline 		Yes...and no.

I believe there is an auto reinforcement for Australia if it is invaded, there is one for the USA, there are forces for Japan and SE Asia to be triggered as well. If there is none for India - well that was programing laziness.

As for mandatory withdrawals based on date of destruction - absurd.
As for upgrades - easy to do - I have done so.

And YES you can update a PBEM game - changes are instituted at the start of Player One's turn.


B



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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:27:50 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

The question is not spurious.

The fact that game units historically destroyed early have no possibility to upgrade (Hermes for example), and in the case of Dutch units or British Empire units in Malaya for example - Must withdraw permanently by mid 42...regardless of how YOUR war is going - makes as much sense as having the KB permanently be withdrawn by July 42...because They were destroyed by that date.

That may be what actually happened...but is ridiculous for an open-ended game like this.


The Dutch forces have a very shallow "bench". The parent country was occupied by the Germans and there were very few people who could be relied on to be anti-Japanese in the DEI. Once those people were mobilized, there were no more troops. The Dutch pilot pool dries up in early 1942 and it shouldn't be expanded. There was no place to draw pilots from.

Bill

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:36:52 AM   
Big B

 

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Status: offline 		There ARE Dutch units that remain in the game - ships and subs.
Some Dutch ground units return later as well.

But your missing the point he originally asked "What IF they Aren't defeated?"
What if YOU evacuated units to continue the fight? Why must they not get new equipment? Why must they Disband?

I'll leave it at that.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:41:24 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		If the Dutch were not defeated, they would start having to disband units due to attrition. Against the AI, I have kept the Dutch in the game, but the air units are of limited usefulness after a while because they start running out of pilots.

Bill

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 3:20:18 AM   
Big B

 

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Status: offline 		... and that's fine, they run low on replacements - limiting their usefulness eventually - nothing wrong with that.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use them up and give'em stuff.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 3:48:01 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

The question is not spurious.

The fact that game units historically destroyed early have no possibility to upgrade (Hermes for example), and in the case of Dutch units or British Empire units in Malaya for example - Must withdraw permanently by mid 42...regardless of how YOUR war is going - makes as much sense as having the KB permanently be withdrawn by July 42...because They were destroyed by that date.

That may be what actually happened...but is ridiculous for an open-ended game like this.



Well, ships like the Hermes would have probably been retired fairly fast anyways as suitable replacements came on line. Perhaps relegated to a airplane ferry but I doubt it would have survive the war in active front line service.

As for the Dutch, the issue was not so much aircraft-if the Allies were willing to spare them but replacement pilots. I doubt it matters if the Dutch Colonial Empire had held out or not, there was a very limited pool of white men in the DEI to draw upon. And, I doubt if you would see many pilots coming out of Holland for obvious reasons. Remember there was virtually no organic military infrastructure in the Dutch Colonies-everything came from Holland. Spare parts, training aircraft, repair facilities, shipyards would have all been in critical short supply with no way to improve on it unless the Allies committed to spend major resources which they did not have in 42-43. The Allies would have probably committed forces there but it would have been cheaper and logistically easier to just use American and other troops.

One might assume that native troops could have filled the void but the Dutch were fairly brutal overlords and not very popular. And the few remaining Dutch in the DEI would have been very wary about arming a hostile population who might just want to take it all back after the war. Oh wait, they took it back anyways...

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 5:33:14 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bighinvegas

If any of the Dutch cruisers survive and join the Allied navies why can't they be upgraded? Historically they were sunk but if they had survived at some point in time they would have been upgraded with radar and more AA. Same for the British Hermes carrier.
warspite1

The only reason Hermes survived the 30's was the war. As one of the earliest carriers she was, long before WWII, simply too small to be an effective fleet carrier - and her employment in the war reflected how stretched the Royal Navy was. Had she survived I very much doubt the RN would have wasted money on upgrading her - the time and resources would have been better spent on escort carriers. She would almost certainly have been employed, unmodified, in the ferry role like Argus and Furious.

As for the Dutch cruisers, Java and Sumatra were almost WWI vintage and there would I think have been little enthusiasm for modernisation (think RN C and D-class). The modernisation of Delhi by the Americans was a one off as by the time she was finished America was in the war and she had better uses for her weaponry and dockyard space. Again it would have been a case of resources better spent elsewhere. De Ruyter was a newer ship and certainly may have been more appropriate for modernisation, although she was small and that would have limited the possibilities for what could be achieved.


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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 5:48:52 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		If the Dutch cruisers had survived would they have possibly been converted to some kind of auxiliary purpose like an ASW platform or an APD?

Bill

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 6:05:21 AM   
Big B

 

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Status: offline 		Amazing,... the Royal Navy was so overflowing with carriers in 1942 - they couldn't justify putting a radar set (like they did on corvettes) on a 25knot CVL (In Hand - not building) - nor bother to weld a dozen 20mm Oerlikon's on Hermes, to have another 16 Sea Hurricanes' and 10 or so torpedo bombers at sea with the Eastern Fleet? (Deck Park - easy .... which they DID DO).

Yes, in 1950 - why bother? ... but in 1942 (with India at stake) you surely must be joking?

And the Dutch CLs were rebuilt as CLAA's

I give - What ever.

< Message edited by Big B -- 7/1/2015 7:09:31 AM >

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 6:24:10 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Dutch cruisers had survived would they have possibly been converted to some kind of auxiliary purpose like an ASW platform or an APD?

Bill
warspite1

But Sumatra did survive. She had problems with her machinery and, given her age, it was just not worth the aggro. She ended up iirc as part of the Mulberry harbour off the French coast.


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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 6:34:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Amazing,... the Royal Navy was so overflowing with carriers in 1942 - they couldn't justify putting a radar set (like they did on corvettes) on a 25knot CVL (In Hand - not building) - nor bother to weld a dozen 20mm Oerlikon's on Hermes, to have another 16 Sea Hurricanes' and 10 or so torpedo bombers at sea with the Eastern Fleet? (Deck Park - easy .... which they DID DO).

Yes, in 1950 - why bother? ... but in 1942 (with India at stake) you surely must be joking?

And the Dutch CLs were rebuilt as CLAA's

I give - What ever.
warspite1

No joke - and no real need to get snotty. It's just an opinion. Could she have been given rudimentary upgrades? Well yes, but to what purpose? Eastern Fleet? Have a look at the history of the RN in the Indian Ocean. Would having one small, slow, poorly protected, not hugely stable carrier with only limited range, in that region make any difference? As it was in early 1942 the RN had to call upon the services of the Wasp to help re-supply Malta with aircraft due to a lack of carriers. If Hermes did survive I strongly suspect she would have been used in that more urgently needed capacity rather than tooling around the Indian Ocean to no good effect.

That said of course, she was withdrawn from the ETO for her own safety precisely because she was so limited. So with ETO and PTO out, there is not much point in her really is there?



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/1/2015 7:43:31 AM >

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 6:57:07 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Dutch cruisers had survived would they have possibly been converted to some kind of auxiliary purpose like an ASW platform or an APD?

Bill
warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
But Sumatra did survive. She had problems with her machinery and, given her age, it was just not worth the aggro. She ended up iirc as part of the Mulberry harbour off the French coast.



The Tromp survived and saw service with the Eastern Fleet (just looked up the fate of the Dutch cruisers). The Java and De Ruyter were the only ones sunk. It looks like the Sumatra had problems from the start.

The Jacob van Heemskerck was under construction when the Netherlands was invaded and was fitted out as a convoy escort and served in that role for most of the war. The Java and De Ruyter could have been outfitted as escorts too, but I think they were fairly low priority for upgrades.

Bill

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:08:51 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Amazing,... the Royal Navy was so overflowing with carriers in 1942 - they couldn't justify putting a radar set (like they did on corvettes) on a 25knot CVL (In Hand - not building) - nor bother to weld a dozen 20mm Oerlikon's on Hermes, to have another 16 Sea Hurricanes' and 10 or so torpedo bombers at sea with the Eastern Fleet? (Deck Park - easy .... which they DID DO).

Yes, in 1950 - why bother? ... but in 1942 (with India at stake) you surely must be joking?

And the Dutch CLs were rebuilt as CLAA's

I give - What ever.



Of course we are speculating. But then again, so are you. Call it a toss up.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 2:50:38 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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Status: offline 		I'm with Big B on this all the way.

The assumption that the Dutch will go down in flames every game is ridiculous for games against the AI.

It is very easy to structure a game wherein 90% of the Dutch forces survive including their army and command structure.

In my current game I kept them alive on Timor, which is still Dutch controlled.

Now that my combined ABDA forces have liberated 3/4s of Java I cannot change the bases on Java back to Dutch command to allow my Dutch army to be airlifted back to Java.

Apparently, after a certain date, which I didn't track, it becomes no longer possible to transfer any bases to the Dutch command regardless of the actual status of the Dutch army and army command.

My Dutch army is now stuck forever on Timor.

Absurd beyond belief.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 7/1/2015 3:50:53 PM >

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 3:29:48 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

My Dutch army is now stuck forever on Timor.

Absurd beyond belief.


Question: since this is an AI game are you able to edit it, for example to change the Dutch units to ABDA? I admit this wouldn't address the fundamental question but if possible it would give you some justice in this particular game.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 4:04:53 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

My Dutch army is now stuck forever on Timor.

Absurd beyond belief.


Question: since this is an AI game are you able to edit it, for example to change the Dutch units to ABDA? I admit this wouldn't address the fundamental question but if possible it would give you some justice in this particular game.




I'm not much for editing. Have never even opened the editor is spite of playing this series since it's DOS days.

I do have the Focus Pacific scenario which has lifted the restrictions on Dutch ground units, but I have only played 4 turns of it and don't know if it was structured to allow the Dutch command structure to survive in game terms.

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 4:57:54 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf
Question: since this is an AI game are you able to edit it, for example to change the Dutch units to ABDA? I admit this wouldn't address the fundamental question but if possible it would give you some justice in this particular game.

Of course it can be fixed in the editor. I can think of four ways off the top of my head. For AI players, it is a no-brainer and would take 7 minutes. Problem with many AI players is they load, play, and save the “official” scenario in the ‘official’ slot, which cannot be edited. Why they don’t just ab initio load and save their chosen scenario in a slot number >25, and launch and play that, so it can be edited, I cannot understand. Sigh. JWE

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RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 5:37:26 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Dutch cruisers had survived would they have possibly been converted to some kind of auxiliary purpose like an ASW platform or an APD?

Bill
warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
But Sumatra did survive. She had problems with her machinery and, given her age, it was just not worth the aggro. She ended up iirc as part of the Mulberry harbour off the French coast.



The Tromp survived and saw service with the Eastern Fleet (just looked up the fate of the Dutch cruisers). The Java and De Ruyter were the only ones sunk. It looks like the Sumatra had problems from the start.

The Jacob van Heemskerck was under construction when the Netherlands was invaded and was fitted out as a convoy escort and served in that role for most of the war. The Java and De Ruyter could have been outfitted as escorts too, but I think they were fairly low priority for upgrades.

Bill
warspite1

Yes I stupidly overlooked the Tromp in my haste before work this morning. Heemskerck I did not include because she was in Europe.

Yes I quite agree on the "downgrading" to escorts role but that is not what was being suggested i.e. an upgrade to enable, presumably to enable them to continue in the cruiser role for which they (Sumatra and Java and probably De Ruyter) were either no longer suited or in the case of the latter, there were better options out there).




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Post #: 24
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 5:41:38 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I'm not much for editing. Have never even opened the editor is spite of playing this series since it's DOS days.

I do have the Focus Pacific scenario which has lifted the restrictions on Dutch ground units, but I have only played 4 turns of it and don't know if it was structured to allow the Dutch command structure to survive in game terms.

OK, so you don't want to do the editor. So what exactly do do you want? Do you want the developers to to change things to suit your personal preferences: ain't going to happen.

You want to rant about fanboism, and incompetence, it's OK. We know who you are and what your thoughts are worth. You really should look into the editor. It's there for you. JWE

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Post #: 25
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 7:27:27 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I'm not much for editing. Have never even opened the editor is spite of playing this series since it's DOS days.

I do have the Focus Pacific scenario which has lifted the restrictions on Dutch ground units, but I have only played 4 turns of it and don't know if it was structured to allow the Dutch command structure to survive in game terms.

OK, so you don't want to do the editor. So what exactly do do you want? Do you want the developers to to change things to suit your personal preferences: ain't going to happen.

You want to rant about fanboism, and incompetence, it's OK. We know who you are and what your thoughts are worth. You really should look into the editor. It's there for you. JWE


I'm playing on a 32 bit system that won't open the 64 bit editor SFB!

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your tripe.

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Post #: 26
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/1/2015 10:43:24 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
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Status: offline 		Why not just use the 32-bit editor then. Almost everybody else does, including me. Don't see the problem.

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Post #: 27
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/2/2015 1:03:39 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I'm playing on a 32 bit system that won't open the 64 bit editor SFB!

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your tripe.


There was a 64 bit editor released, but I believe the editor that comes with the game is 32 bit. There is a 32 bit version in any case.

And John there is no need to throw barbs at people with your information.

Bill

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Post #: 28
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/2/2015 1:09:09 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Yes I stupidly overlooked the Tromp in my haste before work this morning. Heemskerck I did not include because she was in Europe.

Yes I quite agree on the "downgrading" to escorts role but that is not what was being suggested i.e. an upgrade to enable, presumably to enable them to continue in the cruiser role for which they (Sumatra and Java and probably De Ruyter) were either no longer suited or in the case of the latter, there were better options out there).



I think it might be interesting in a mod to have a conversion for the Dutch CLs to some kind of escort/auxiliary available. It also sounds like Sumatra should start with some pretty severe engine damage. When she was evacuated from the DEI she could only do 15 knots and she was in dry dock when the war started.

I had never looked at the Dutch CLs in much depth before.

Bill

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Post #: 29
RE: Dutch aircraft and ships question - 7/2/2015 10:58:11 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I'm playing on a 32 bit system that won't open the 64 bit editor SFB!

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your tripe.


There was a 64 bit editor released, but I believe the editor that comes with the game is 32 bit. There is a 32 bit version in any case.

And John there is no need to throw barbs at people with your information.

Bill


Thank you Bill, but when I try to run the editor that installed with my game I get an error message stating the system can't run a 64 bit program.

I'll dig deeper to see if there is another version of the editor in my install.

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