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South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LCS/SSC

 
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South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LCS/SSC - 7/10/2015 6:17:56 PM   
Cheechako

 

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I tweaked the South China Sea Clash to include a "rushed" into service VLS LRASM for the Burke with 8 rounds loaded. I also added 8 NSMs per each LCS based on the recent request for OTH missiles for the LCS/SSC. I made one LCS into a SSC concept. I added a SLQ-32V5 ECM pod, added 24 hellfires, added 2x25mm typhoon mounts and changed each LCS to have SEARAMS instead of their regular RIM launcher. I know the Navy decided against ESSMs on the SSC, but I added 8 just to see if it could survive this scenario.

As soon as hostilities break out, I use LCS Freedom(only having SEARAM and NSMs) take out the hostile corvette and CCG ship. I expended two NSMs per ship, sinking both.

I figured since it's open hostility time, I launch a cruise missile strike on Woody island to take out the radar and SIGINT site with my Virginia class. In retrospect, I probably should have fired the tomahawks from the burke and kept the Virginia hidden.

During the opening breach, I noticed one of the vampires come from part of the sea with no ships - so it might be a goblin. I send a romeo from the burke to hunt and kill it. I guess right based on the trajectory of the vampire and my second sonobuoy picked up the contact. I pinpointed it with one pass on the dipping sonar and killed it with Mark46.

At this point I have the 3 ship Chinese surface group moving to my NW. I vector my triton towards the group dropping it down to 10K feet hoping that I'll get a visual confirmation of the group.

Fortworth is my "SSC" armed boat, with 8 NSMs, so I vector it for a flank speed intercept of the 3 ship group. Before it gets within 100nm range, my triton picks up the 52c destroyer after it shoots down the Philippines maritime search plane. I drop my triton to the deck and max speed to get out of the SAM engagement ring of the surface group. Thankfully, it makes it out of range. I pop it back up to 8K feet and turn on the surface search radar to track the group. Now that I have a lock on the 52c, I fire a 4 shot salvo of LRASMs from the burke. Two LRASMs are picked off by HQ16As, but, two make it through the defensive screen of chaff, 30mm cannon fire and missiles. One LRASM is a near miss, one is a direct hit. Each carry 1000 pound warheads. The near miss caused enough damage alone for it to be a mission kill, but the second one was a direct hit causing massive damage and sinking the vessel.

At this point, I figure my surface group is going to start seeing enemy aircraft, so I keep my SPY radars turned on. The SM6 keeps swatting down most enemy AC, although I had a few slip into ESSM range... I also fire another round of tomahawks at the SIGINT site.

By now, my SSC is within NSM range. I fire 3 NSMs at each 54A. The first 54A is caught unaware of the incoming NSMs and two are near misses and the third is a direct hit. Damaged, some systems are still operational the ship does have major flooding, so it probably would have been a mission kill, but, again, it can still fight. The second 54A is ready for the NSMs, and is able to shoot all three down with HQ16s.

One of the 54As is able to fire two ASCMs at my SSC. At this point, it's already running flank speed back to my burke. The SEARAM picks up both missiles and is able to take them both out. As I haven't read the logs, yet, it still looks like I have two fighting 54As. I turn my SSC back around and fire two more NSMs at the closest 54A. Both find their target for direct hits. That 54A finally sunk after 2 near misses and three direct NSM hits. Damn tough ship. At this point, my SSC is out of NSMs so I task it to take up position near my burke. On the way back, it again comes under ASCM fire, and the SEARAM is able to take out two missiles. I also figured out why my ESSMs weren't firing on the SSC, so I fixed it. It's able to shoot down one JH-7A once my ESSMs start working. Again, the SCS comes under cruise missile attack from missiles fired by the JH-7A, and between ESSMs and RIMs, it's able to down two more missiles.

Freedom still has 4 NSMs so I send it at flank speed to fire at the last 54A. At this point, I'm also ready to just end the scenario, so I fire two LRASMs from the burke. One is downed by a HQ-16A and one is downed by a lucky roll of gun fire. Sigh. Okay, freedom will be in firing range in 30ish minutes, my P-8 with two SLAMER-ATAs is almost in range. I decide to fire my two remaining LRASMs as well as my SLAMER-ATAs. I cross my fingers as one LRASM is taken out by a HQ16A, but one makes it through and is a direct hit and sinks the last PLAN ship.

Conclusion:

Reflecting on this edited scenario, I really appreciate the importance of new ASMs on USN ships, and they need to be here now, and in quantity. I'm still rubbing my forehead why the LCS needs a 57mm, two 30mms, two 25mms, 24 hellfires and now 8 OTH missiles to deal with the small boat threat. If they could figure out a way to drop the 30mms and add some ESSMs, you now have a 45 knot frigate that can fight it's way into 100nm of an enemy combatant and fire stealthy cruise missiles and speed out of range. An ESSM LCS also means that it can better screen bigger expensive ships for missiles and planes freeing up AEGIS ships to fire SM-6s at priority combatants.

In a small boat threat, it still has OTH missiles to take out the larger small boat threat, and wait to close until 3ish miles where it can use it's 57 and hellfires to chew up boats. Anything that closes to within 1ish mile can now be engaged by two 25 cannons as well as the 57 and hellfires. I don't see why having two 30mms is so much more important than fitting in some quad packed ESSMs. The ESSMII is supposed to have an active seeker, so you don't have illumination concerns on a smaller hull.

The NSM is a great missile, but the smaller warhead is somewhat of an issue. If you get a near miss, it doesn't have the blast to totally take out a ship. You really need a direct hit to cause enough damage to sink or get a mission kill. The LRASM is awesome. With multiple sensors, it's really hard to spoof all of them, and the 1K warhead - yes. Hopefully the missile programs take into account "stealth" with designs that have passive seekers and reduced RCS. I've heard that Boeing wants to put forth a modernized harpoon for the frigate OTH missile and Raytheon has put forth the tomahawk the VLS solution. The USN needs blue water missiles to put up stand off distance against modern vessels. I don't see why it makes sense to use a 30 year old design that said modern vessels can pick up and defeat with relative ease. Even with stealth missiles, I was trying to be stingy and get away with two missile salvos. That works against less capable ships, but against modern ships, you really need to send in 4 to ensure that one will get through the defensive screen. I'm guessing I'd need even more harpoon IIs to see similar results.


Post #: 1
RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/12/2015 9:35:32 PM   
AlanChan

 

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Why CPLAN SAG comes in three ships? one division of CPLAN usually have 4 or 8 ships plus supply ship.

(in reply to Cheechako)
Post #: 2
RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/13/2015 3:22:17 AM   
ExNusquam

 

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Not to knock your edits, but that sounds insanely overkill for the US side. Last time I played South China Sea Clash stock, I ended up taking zero losses as the US (The Philippine Navy got smoked, but I don't think you can actually avoid that), and I never even used my Super Hornets. Smart use of the ISR assets provided and the LCS's maneuverability mean you can deny the PLAN most of their missile shots, while using the Virginia, P-8s and MH-60s to do the heavy work.

(in reply to AlanChan)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/16/2015 8:11:24 PM   
Cheechako

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

Not to knock your edits, but that sounds insanely overkill for the US side. Last time I played South China Sea Clash stock, I ended up taking zero losses as the US (The Philippine Navy got smoked, but I don't think you can actually avoid that), and I never even used my Super Hornets. Smart use of the ISR assets provided and the LCS's maneuverability mean you can deny the PLAN most of their missile shots, while using the Virginia, P-8s and MH-60s to do the heavy work.

Was this on the recent DB? The detection range and performance against aircraft and missiles pretty much means you can't use the MH-60 on anything other than the sub. Also, the Chinese ships with their HQ-16As and base PH of 80% tend to shred Harpoons. In one case, they were able to take down an entire P-3 salvo, and they splashed the P-3 with a HQ-9A. SLAMER-ATAs seem to be ok, but that leaves your P-8s and Hornets or your Virginia.

Oh, as to the question on only 3 ships, the type 56 made it a 4 ship surface group.

edit: Even with the stock scenario, I'm starting to see the advantages of the UAVs. You can run the ships in passive mode and and still screen for ASMs with your drones.

Once they add the ability for an OTH missile to the LCS or SSC, it's really going to change effective they are. Still should have added VLS for 16+ ESSMs and possibly to shoot RUM-139s.

< Message edited by Cheechako -- 7/17/2015 2:07:18 PM >

(in reply to ExNusquam)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/18/2015 8:25:54 AM   
Tailhook

 

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While your edits do represent a lot of things I wish I had, this is definitely doable from the US without casualties. I did it losing a single Super Hornet who decided to try and gun the Chinese SAG after firing HARMs (this was in an older version with that not sorted as well as refueling problems, so air strikes were ineffective). Didn't use the LCS, used the P-8 to kill the Chinese Corvette (the Filipinos actually sank the Chinese Coast Guard Ship in a gun duel, but all PN assets were lost) as well as a sub. Virginia Class wiped out the SAG.

(in reply to Cheechako)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/18/2015 11:08:36 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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It's great you guys are modding scenarios and thinking about this stuff. Very relevant to the discussions going on today and as developers it's nice to see our work being used this way.

Thanks!

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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/19/2015 3:55:30 AM   
Tailhook

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It's great you guys are modding scenarios and thinking about this stuff. Very relevant to the discussions going on today and as developers it's nice to see our work being used this way.

Thanks!



OftenSometimes when I get frustrated with a scenario I'll spawn myself an Ohio SSBN, edit the nuclear ROE, and relieve some of that frustration*. Then I'll calm down, re-load and play like normal

*This lead me to discover a hilarious bug one day where one of my Trident D5 RV warheads started to chase around a KA-29. It missed, got a message on the left which had an "adjusted for distance" penalty in like the negative millions, but continued to circle and keep repeating misses. I didn't get a save or a screenshot (did get a laugh though). It was in 1.08, the forum release.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/19/2015 2:35:34 PM   
AlanChan

 

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For the 4 ship SAG, which unit are you trying to simulate? There is no 4 ship unit in CPLAN with both 056, 054A and 052C/D.

if you want to do something in South China Sea, first you will face CCG ships, then the CPLAN Nan Sha Patrol Group, with 7X old 053 FFGs, then probably DDG division 9, with 4FFGs and 4DDGs. And a few subs.

I do not think the CCG and CPLAN Nan Sha patrol group would have WRA to open fire in normal operations, they generally do not carry live SSMs for patrol. If they really decided to do something, They will have backups of DDG divison 9 and DDG division 2.

(in reply to Cheechako)
Post #: 8
RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/19/2015 3:45:20 PM   
Cheechako

 

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Joined: 7/10/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlanChan

For the 4 ship SAG, which unit are you trying to simulate? There is no 4 ship unit in CPLAN with both 056, 054A and 052C/D.

if you want to do something in South China Sea, first you will face CCG ships, then the CPLAN Nan Sha Patrol Group, with 7X old 053 FFGs, then probably DDG division 9, with 4FFGs and 4DDGs. And a few subs.

I do not think the CCG and CPLAN Nan Sha patrol group would have WRA to open fire in normal operations, they generally do not carry live SSMs for patrol. If they really decided to do something, They will have backups of DDG divison 9 and DDG division 2.



Thanks - I was just playing the stock scenario that's included for everyone, and edited the LCS to be a SSC combatant with OTH missiles and added a VLS LRASM.

(in reply to AlanChan)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 7/23/2015 10:37:28 AM   
AlanChan

 

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Yes, I know you are playing the stock scenario, but you are also evaluating the combat effectiveness of some OTH missiles and compares them with LRASM. I think effectiveness of these ordances are heavyly related to enemy's target acqusition, ECM and air defence capacities. So I suggest it is better to evaluate them with a realistic OPFOR setting.

(in reply to Cheechako)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/3/2015 8:31:20 PM   
magi

 

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I am playing this now.... It is disappointing that the LCS class isn't more capable.... It really wasn't designed for a fight like this.... The two helo's are real benefit.... But it really needs more versility.... Not even having ECM capability is a let down.... I did add a 2017 LCS to try out....
The navy really could use a good friggate class platform.... Good ones are versatile workhorse… and they bring punch to the party…
I do believe there are good assets in this scenario… And it can be won with the assets the designer gave us… But it's a good little sandbox scenario to fool around with…
It's going to be interesting to see how this LCS class of ships evolves...... There is so much talk about it and what they're going to do it… It's kind of hard to figure out what's real..... If they really want to add much stuff to it… I think they're going to have to stretch them… I already hear that there ASW mission module is too heavy and they're going to have to lose some weight somewhere ..... Oh well......

< Message edited by magi -- 8/10/2015 3:03:54 AM >

(in reply to AlanChan)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/8/2015 9:17:46 PM   
travcrouse


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I've played this one a few times. The only thing that keeps me from labeling those LCS's as useless is their surveillance drones.
I mean, I've been reading about these boats for years, about how capable and kicka$$ they are. I just don't see it.

(in reply to magi)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/10/2015 2:07:11 AM   
magi

 

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I enjoy playing this scenario a lot… It is very frustrated not having strike capability with my surface assets… but I believe that the designers whole point here… I am going to play it again but swap the Burk class out with the DDGX 1000.... That will be real fun… I can blast away with that big gun…

< Message edited by magi -- 8/10/2015 3:08:44 AM >

(in reply to travcrouse)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/10/2015 9:17:14 PM   
Dysta


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Hello guys, been playing CMANO for two weeks.

I somehow cannot paint the Chinese vessels for LCS' griffin missile. Even the helicopter is airborne with radar. Something wrong with my EMCOM?

And also, I read the news that LCS' will soon get naval longbow hellfire missiles, even shorter range than griffin and more likely for anti-boats, but I'd like to fare little better chance to fight against FFL with a salvo of these.

Overall, I barely managed to disable them with DDG's harpoons and gun, but LCS's job is much more pathetic than I've thought already.

(in reply to magi)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/11/2015 6:28:48 AM   
wild_Willie2


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The LCS was designed as a low intensity warfare / support vessel and as such is not really survivable in the high intensity warfare environment we generally subject it to in Command. However, if you use it in the roles for which they are intended (patrol, ASW and mine clearing) they function perfectly fine. Although my personal opinion about these vessels is that they are bloody expensive vessels for tasks for which much cheaper vessels would have sufficed. A good example of a much more economically viable project would be the Holland-class offshore patrol vessels of the Dutch navy. They only cost about a 150 million dollar apiece (make it a 200 million with upgraded ASW sensors and a CIWS package)and could do the same job as the LCS was designed for for less then half of the costs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland-class_offshore_patrol_vessels


< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 8/11/2015 7:31:53 AM >


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In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/11/2015 9:57:20 PM   
magi

 

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^^^What Willie says.... Perty much....

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
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RE: South China Sea Clash - 2017ish - a case for the LC... - 8/12/2015 12:06:11 AM   
Sardaukar


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Or buy Absalon-class:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon-class_support_ship

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to magi)
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